Immoral behaviour

[We Never Know]

Some ask does atheism lead to immoral behavior

Does Atheism Lead to Immoral Behavior?

I'd suppose this depends on what you view as moral behavior but I thought I'd ask the question to see what people would say. It is easy to justify one's personal morals but I'd like you to consider the world at large. Is the world becoming more moral or less moral? And, does this have anything...

www.religiousforums.com

Some ask does theism lead to immoral behavior

Does theism lead to immoral behaviour?

Inspired by this thread: https://www.religiousforums.com/threads/does-atheism-lead-to-immoral-behavior.266108/ Sauce for the goose and all that. My personal take: yes, theism often - though not always - leads to immoral behaviour.

www.religiousforums.com

If there are people with immoral behavior from both sides of the fence,, both religious people and non-religious people... How can either one be blamed?

How about we just blame it on humans in general.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Some ask does atheism lead to immoral behavior

Does Atheism Lead to Immoral Behavior?

I'd suppose this depends on what you view as moral behavior but I thought I'd ask the question to see what people would say. It is easy to justify one's personal morals but I'd like you to consider the world at large. Is the world becoming more moral or less moral? And, does this have anything...

www.religiousforums.com

Some ask does theism lead to immoral behavior

Does theism lead to immoral behaviour?

Inspired by this thread: https://www.religiousforums.com/threads/does-atheism-lead-to-immoral-behavior.266108/ Sauce for the goose and all that. My personal take: yes, theism often - though not always - leads to immoral behaviour.

www.religiousforums.com

If there are people with immoral behavior from both sides of the fence,, both religious people and non-religious people... How can either one be blamed?

How about we just blame it on humans in general.

Your implication seems to be that whether a person believes in a god or gods has absolutely no effect on their actions or character.

I'm sure a fair number of theists would take issue with the idea that their faith is irrelevant.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Some ask does atheism lead to immoral behavior

Does Atheism Lead to Immoral Behavior?

I'd suppose this depends on what you view as moral behavior but I thought I'd ask the question to see what people would say. It is easy to justify one's personal morals but I'd like you to consider the world at large. Is the world becoming more moral or less moral? And, does this have anything...

www.religiousforums.com

Some ask does theism lead to immoral behavior

Does theism lead to immoral behaviour?

Inspired by this thread: https://www.religiousforums.com/threads/does-atheism-lead-to-immoral-behavior.266108/ Sauce for the goose and all that. My personal take: yes, theism often - though not always - leads to immoral behaviour.

www.religiousforums.com

If there are people with immoral behavior from both sides of the fence,, both religious people and non-religious people... How can either one be blamed?

How about we just blame it on humans in general.

There are things that many consider to be very immoral that some religions enjoin upon their adherents. For example, many religions say that community members who hold wrong or "heretical" beliefs should be shunned (many used to be killed, and a few still call for that today). Being deliberately shunned by your own community is one of the worst things that can happen to a social species such as we are. And an intelligent, questioning mind cannot help asking questions about dogmatic beliefs that sound, to put it frankly, silly.

Further, you would (I hope) say that any religious congregation that said, "we don't accept people of colour in our church" are acting immorally. Would you say the same about that congregation if, instead of "people of colour," they said LGBTQ+? Why or why not?

And even further, there are churches that quite literally shame congregants into giving more to the church than they can afford, causing them and their families real hardship. I'm sure you've heard of all those mega-church and on-line pastors with fleets of cars and airplanes, all for the glory of the pastor -- not God. That, too, is totally immoral.

As far as I am aware, there are no non-religious strictures against anybody, nor rules requiring any sort of immoral behaviour. When an atheist behaves immorally, it is a reflection on himself or herself alone -- they own it.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

...

As far as I am aware, there are no non-religious strictures against anybody, nor rules requiring any sort of immoral behaviour. When an atheist behaves immorally, it is a reflection on himself or herself alone -- they own it.

It is a bit more complex than because of how a given secular society can have a set of actually fundamental values of how to view a human and a society, which can end up harming a human. Or if you like, be immoral.
In Denmark we have 2 competing core values, which both lead to actual problems.

 

[SalixIncendium]

I, personally, think that people that hold "hysterical" beliefs should be shunned.

It boils down to this: Some people are jerks. They exist in both camps. Sitting here arguing about extremists on either side will get you nowhere.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I, personally, think that people that hold "hysterical" beliefs should be shunned.

It boils down to this: Some people are jerks. They exist in both camps. Sitting here arguing about extremists on either side will get you nowhere.

So, when a Jewish family arranges a bris at their son's 8th day, who is the jerk? The family? The mohel? Remember, this is the religiously-mandated cutting off of an infant's foreskin, without anaesthetic. While not common, there have been complications, including partial excision of the penis, excessive bleeding, painful infection.

Or worse, when an African Muslim family orders the excision of a girl's labia and/or clitoris, somewhere between infancy and early teens. I am aware that Islam does not endorse it, religious texts are still usually cited in support of it. And it happens!

I can promise you, a purely secular mind-set does not even contemplate such nonsense.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Or what about the parents who tell their child -- about their new best friend at their public school -- "well dear, since she doesn't go to our church, she will go to hell while you will go to heaven." I think that is a very real moral evil -- I really do.

 

[Valjean]

Some things promote moral values or behavior; some things inhibit them. Some things obviate the need or utility for developing moral values.

 

[SalixIncendium]

So, when a Jewish family arranges a bris at their son's 8th day, who is the jerk? The family? The mohel? Remember, this is the religiously-mandated cutting off of an infant's foreskin, without anaesthetic. While not common, there have been complications, including partial excision of the penis, excessive bleeding, painful infection.

Pfft. I'm circumcised. I honestly don't recall the experience. I never considered this ritual to be "immoral."

Or worse, when an African Muslim family orders the excision of a girl's labia and/or clitoris, somewhere between infancy and early teens. I am aware that Islam does not endorse it, religious texts are still usually cited in support of it. And it happens!

I can promise you, a purely secular mind-set does not even contemplate such nonsense.

Or even worse, when a religious person who depends on their belief system to survive this life is destroyed by an atheist who belittles them for their views. And it happens.

Live your life. Stop being so concerned about the lives of others.

And if their lives impact yours, that's on you, not them.

 

[SomeRandom]

Some ask does atheism lead to immoral behavior

Does Atheism Lead to Immoral Behavior?

I'd suppose this depends on what you view as moral behavior but I thought I'd ask the question to see what people would say. It is easy to justify one's personal morals but I'd like you to consider the world at large. Is the world becoming more moral or less moral? And, does this have anything...

www.religiousforums.com

Some ask does theism lead to immoral behavior

Does theism lead to immoral behaviour?

Inspired by this thread: https://www.religiousforums.com/threads/does-atheism-lead-to-immoral-behavior.266108/ Sauce for the goose and all that. My personal take: yes, theism often - though not always - leads to immoral behaviour.

www.religiousforums.com

If there are people with immoral behavior from both sides of the fence,, both religious people and non-religious people... How can either one be blamed?

How about we just blame it on humans in general.

I mean, I think of it more like it’s two kind of overlapping circles. With everyone pointing at everyone else lol

The word Immoral implies a behaviour set that is dictated by one’s religious values. This differs across the various religions, but there’s usually at least some agreed upon basics. That said, those differing values (often culturally enforced) tend to make one think that others outside of their religion is acting immoral.
My religion doesn’t necessarily prohibit the alphabet soup community in the way some (not all) sects of Abrahamic religions may do. So there will be accusations of us being too lax or ignoring “immoral behaviour” from said folks. And indeed there will be “infighting” in all religious communities due to various sects having differing interpretations of texts, perhaps values even etc.

With the non religious, their morality likely takes the form of ethical values. Perhaps not always, I’m speaking generally obviously.
These ethics come from a differing understanding of what constitutes “immoral behaviour.” So I wouldn’t be surprised if such ethical behaviour is accused of being immoral by the religious.

It really comes down to fundamentals of the idea of moral and immoral.
But I think there is common ground to be found.
If we can stop our petty bickering long enough to find it.

 

[Valjean]

Pfft. I'm circumcised. I honestly don't recall the experience. I never considered this ritual to be "immoral."


Or even worse, when a religious person who depends on their belief system to survive this life is destroyed by an atheist who belittles them for their views. And it happens.

Destroyed? Insight is destructive?

Live your life. Stop being so concerned about the lives of others.

And if their lives impact yours, that's on you, not them.

So Krystallnacht was on the Jews, not the Nazis?

 

[SalixIncendium]

Destroyed? Insight is destructive?

Destroying one's path is destructive.

So Krystallnacht was on the Jews, not the Nazis?

Again, stop basing your personal insights on extremism that occurred nearly a century ago.

Also, I think this was more of a racial action rather than a religious one, so I think you're actually supporting my argument than refuting it.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Pfft. I'm circumcised. I honestly don't recall the experience. I never considered this ritual to be "immoral."

I see. So because it didn't hurt you because you were an infant, it won't hurt anybody else?

Try the book As Nature Made Him: The Boy Who Was Raised as a Girl, a biography of David Reimer, written by John Colapinto and published February 20, 2001, by Harper Perennial. Reimer was a Canadian man born male but raised as a girl following medical advice and intervention after his penis was severely injured during a botched circumcision in infancy (emphasis added).

Reimer, by the way, finally committed suicide after trying to regain his lost masculinity.

It does happen -- not frequently but it does happen. And from you, that merits a "Pfft?"

 

[SalixIncendium]

Try the book As Nature Made Him: The Boy Who Was Raised as a Girl, a biography of David Reimer, written by John Colapinto and published February 20, 2001, by Harper Perennial. Reimer was a Canadian man born male but raised as a girl following medical advice and intervention after his penis was severely injured during a botched circumcision in infancy (emphasis added).

Again...exception or the rule?

Would you suggest that no one has ever committed suicide as a result of having their religious views shattered?

Again, the pendulum swings in BOTH directions.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Some ask does atheism lead to immoral behavior

This surprises me: I am reading a book. Its a short and very easy to read book by Eric Fromm who is explaining the psychologists Jung and Freud and how they view religion. According to him Freud views religion as an intermediate stage between primitive man and humanist man, and so he views religion as a throwback and something to be antiquated. Jung views religion as a result of psychology and psychology itself as a religious thing and that humans tend to create religion all the time.

I bring this up, because he says that humans are the only creature faced with dealing with mortality and with reason. We are not able to simply be like other animals and are driven to always search for a way to overcome our own nature. He says we are always aware of our inability to control our own lives, including even our own passions. We are alienated from simply living, because we are unhappy about our lack of control. Until we have mastered ourselves and nature we will be be roving and searching for that mastery.

So what does atheism lead to? Historically it leads to the founding of new religions.

Some ask does theism lead to immoral behavior

Freud would say religion holds humanity back. Jung would say religion is part of humanity and must be perfected. 'Theism' does not well describe all religions, however it does describe submitting to a higher power such as the subconscious or to the community. The atheist may well do the same without being an actual theist. Perhaps Freud would say 'Hurray' for pure reasoning atheists, and perhaps Jung would say they were in self denial.

I'd say that the less religious a person is the less connected to the community, the less of a tribal animal they are. They are a wildcard. This could be immoral or not. Benjamin Franklin is a wildcard, but he is not evil. He could be though, because he is not under the sway of the common sense.

Throughout history there have always been wildcards, and sometimes they have important roles to play. Therefore 'No'. Atheism does not necessarily lead to immorality. It is generationally short lived, however. No atheist should assume that their children and grandchildren will be like themselves. I think it unlikely. How does one pass on unbelief in a world where belief is so common and so natural?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Again...exception or the rule?

Does it matter? If there are risks to any surgery, then ethical physicians will only perform the surgery when the need for it outweighs the risk. The risk in circumcision is about 2-3%. The risk to my spine surgery was only 1%, and only for infection, and yet my surgeon was very careful to ensure I was willing to undergo that risk so that I would be able to walk. I made that choice (and it was an easy choice). What is the "need" for circumcising an infant? And if there is no need, why take the risk -- especially, as in the case of David Reimer -- when the risk was undertaken for him by his parents?

Would you suggest that no one has ever committed suicide as a result of having their religious views shattered?

A dangerous question indeed! We should talk about the missionaries who went around the world doing just that to hundreds of cultures and hundreds of religious beliefs. How many lives were shattered by Christians in India, Africa, the Americas, Hawaii, New Zealand and Australia, Polynesia bringing their "truth" to supplant -- often by force -- the truths held by all those cultures? How many people died? How many children were stolen from their families and cultures in residential schools?

But let me focus more on the issue we were talking about. Do you really think it would "shatter" the religious views of the Jews to finally realize that circumcision was 100% cultural and not a command from God? Do you think the faith couldn't stand that simple truth?

 

[Valjean]

Destroying one's path is destructive.

Pointing out that one's path leads nowhere, and why, is helpful.

Again, stop basing your personal insights on extremism that occurred nearly a century ago.

Also, I think this was more of a racial action rather than a religious one, so I think you're actually supporting my argument than refuting it.

I'm basing my 'personal insight' on abstract principles. My example was just an easily groked analogy to illustrate the principle.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Or what about the parents who tell their child -- about their new best friend at their public school -- "well dear, since she doesn't go to our church, she will go to hell while you will go to heaven." I think that is a very real moral evil -- I really do.

Or the parents, which pushes their child to be successful based on a secular norm of a good, happy and successful life and tells the child, that if it doesn't live up to that, it is not good enough.

 

[Kfox]

Some ask does atheism lead to immoral behavior

Does Atheism Lead to Immoral Behavior?

I'd suppose this depends on what you view as moral behavior but I thought I'd ask the question to see what people would say. It is easy to justify one's personal morals but I'd like you to consider the world at large. Is the world becoming more moral or less moral? And, does this have anything...

www.religiousforums.com

Some ask does theism lead to immoral behavior

Does theism lead to immoral behaviour?

Inspired by this thread: https://www.religiousforums.com/threads/does-atheism-lead-to-immoral-behavior.266108/ Sauce for the goose and all that. My personal take: yes, theism often - though not always - leads to immoral behaviour.

www.religiousforums.com

If there are people with immoral behavior from both sides of the fence,, both religious people and non-religious people... How can either one be blamed?

How about we just blame it on humans in general.

Good people will do good, bad people will do bad regardless of religion. The difference is the religious person will often use his religion to justify his deeds whether they be good or bad.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Live your life. Stop being so concerned about the lives of others.

And if their lives impact yours, that's on you, not them.

That's quite a shocking and disturbing thing to say...