In a Bit of a Bind

[Terese]

Before i say anything i request you not to talk ill of Vaisnavism. Thank you.

I don't know if these feelings will leave me tonight, tomorrow, or any date, but i they always seem to resurface. For some reason i am frustrated and disappointed in myself, but there's no good reason for doing that. I seem to be having a recent pull to Gaudiya Vaisnavism, and this is not the first time.

I love it's sweet mood but i just don't agree with some of it's theological aspects like Lord Visnu not being the Original Form, but Lord Krishna, making a kind of "flip" from Lord Visnu atop Ananta Shesha with Lakshmi, Bhu-devi and Nila-devi, to Lord Krishna, Lord Balarama and Radha. It makes me sad, like i have to "leave" Narayana (Since it was Him who made me find Vaisnavism in the first place) to follow Gaudiya Vaisnavism, which should not be the case. Generally my qualms about this is theological and doctrinal aspects. Also doesn't help that Sri Vaikuntham sounds more pleasing to me than Goloka.

Any sympathies for this poor fool? Basically i'm ranting about what friends the Lord associates and what form he chooses, i'm a lost cause

 

[SomeRandom]

Do you have to believe all those theological points to be a Gaudyia Vaisnava?
Why not just have your interpretation and be done with it? This is all mere semantics anyway. Krishna is still Vishnu and vice versa. It's just that Krishna is seen as a more Holy Name in that sect (if I'm not mistaken.) But they also accept names like Allah to be Holy, so who cares. It's not a betrayal to pray to Lord Vishnu and call him Krishna. They are one and the same. Or just keep calling him Vishnu, whatever suits you. You do you.
The only divides exist in your mind.

 

[Terese]

Do you have to believe all those theological points to be a Gaudyia Vaisnava?
Why not just have your interpretation and be done with it? This is all mere semantics anyway. Krishna is still Vishnu and vice versa. It's just that Krishna is seen as a more Holy Name in that sect (if I'm not mistaken.) But they also accept names like Allah to be Holy, so who cares. It's not a betrayal to pray to Lord Vishnu and call him Krishna. They are one and the same. Or just keep calling him Vishnu, whatever suits you. You do you.
The only divides exist in your mind.

I care about orthodoxy, but thank you for your reply

 

[sayak83]

I care about orthodoxy, but thank you for your reply

There is only one question.
Does Krishna/Vishnu care about these differences? What do you think?

 

[SomeRandom]

I care about orthodoxy, but thank you for your reply

Why do you care about orthodoxy, if you don't mind me asking?
Further I would argue with the amount of sects and cross pollination that has occurred for the past several thousand years, how many variations of adherents there are in any given sect, how much orthodoxy is even left?
Consider when Lord Ganesh wrote down a poem outlining theology and philosophy. Which greatly upset a devotee because he knew his own words would be no match for the splendor of the wise Ganesh. Upon learning this, Ganesh immediately tore his to pieces to make the devotee happy. God cares about sincerity, not how well we follow all the rules at any given time. If you offer Krishna even a leaf with love, He would graciously accept it.

 

[Terese]

There is only one question.
Does Krishna/Vishnu care about these differences? What do you think?

No i don't believe he does, that would be quite silly But i seem to care, for an asinine reason

 

[Terese]

Why do you care about orthodoxy, if you don't mind me asking?
Further I would argue with the amount of sects and cross pollination that has occurred for the past several thousand years, how many variations of adherents there are in any given sect, how much orthodoxy is even left?

There is a large amount of Vaisnava orthodoxy, i would not doubt it's diminishing. I do agree that there is "cross pollination" between sampradayas, but this is not hugely important.

I care about orthodoxy because if i did not then what is the point of gurus, shishyas and scriptures?

 

[SomeRandom]

There is a large amount of Vaisnava orthodoxy, i would not doubt it's diminishing. I do agree that there is "cross pollination" between sampradayas, but this is not hugely important.

I don't mean to be rude nor am I trying to sound judgmental, but it seems to me that your fixation upon orthodoxy is holding you back from happiness in your path. Take a breath and speak with your Guru or Lord Vishnu, I'm sure there is a solution that will satisfy you.

 

[sayak83]

No i don't believe he does, that would be quite silly But i seem to care, for an asinine reason

So pray to him, and I am sure a way through the dilemma will arise in your soul, where Brahman/Vishnu is permanently situated.

I personally would have taken up the form that arises in the mind when I focus on such prayers, or hear bhakti songs or recite the Gita. But that would be me. May not work for you.

 

[Terese]

I don't mean to be rude nor am I trying to sound judgmental, but it seems to me that your fixation upon orthodoxy is holding you back from happiness in your path. Take a breath and speak with your Guru or Lord Vishnu, I'm sure there is a solution that will satisfy you.

Thanks SR, i'll think on that. I'm most definitely not abandoning orthodoxy, but i know there will be a solution that will satisfy me

 

[Sirona]

Before i say anything i request you not to talk ill of Vaisnavism. Thank you.

I don't know if these feelings will leave me tonight, tomorrow, or any date, but i they always seem to resurface. For some reason i am frustrated and disappointed in myself, but there's no good reason for doing that. I seem to be having a recent pull to Gaudiya Vaisnavism, and this is not the first time.

I love it's sweet mood but i just don't agree with some of it's theological aspects like Lord Visnu not being the Original Form, but Lord Krishna, making a kind of "flip" from Lord Visnu atop Ananta Shesha with Lakshmi, Bhu-devi and Nila-devi, to Lord Krishna, Lord Balarama and Radha. It makes me sad, like i have to "leave" Narayana (Since it was Him who made me find Vaisnavism in the first place) to follow Gaudiya Vaisnavism, which should not be the case. Generally my qualms about this is theological and doctrinal aspects. Also doesn't help that Sri Vaikuntham sounds more pleasing to me than Goloka.

Any sympathies for this poor fool? Basically i'm ranting about what friends the Lord associates and what form he chooses, i'm a lost cause

Me too, I like Vaikuntha better than Goloka, I like Krishna in the Mahabharata (as a diplomat /warrior) better than Krishna the cowherd boy. I read the Brhad-Bhagavatamrta describing a quest for the highest form of divine bliss. I read the first chapters of Part II, describing Vaikuntha among other places. I was very happy about the descriptions of Vishnu and I asked myself if there still could be anything higher. I didn't now that the quest would end in Goloka, and when I learned it, I have to admit that I was a bit disappointed.


http://www.bvml.org/SSG/brhad-bhagavatamrta.pdf


What I like about Gaudiya Vaishnavism is the diversity of spiritual relationship, seeing God as one's friend, one's lover or one's child, something which just does not exist in many other (mostly monotheistic) religions. What I don't like about it at the same time is that, according to the doctrine, it's the job of the guru to tell you who you ultimately are, after you theoretically surrendered everything to them. I think that is fishy. As for me, Arjuna's friendship with Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita struck a chord with me immediately. And so I think everybody "recognizes" one's relationship with God naturally, without a guru interfering.

Hope that helps.

Brhad Bhagavatamrta

I uploaded pictures of Vishnu / Vishnudutas from the BBT edition of the Brhad-Bhagavatamrta (Volume 2.1) for you.

 

[Nyingjé Tso]

What I like about Gaudiya Vaishnavism is the diversity of spiritual relationship, seeing God as one's friend, one's lover or one's child

Vanakkam,

You find that in almost all flavors of Hinduism, not just gaudiya Vaishnavism.

In own experience, seen many Hindus considering their Ishta or Kula devta as family members. During Ganesha Chathurti in Mumbai, seen families welcoming Parvati maa as Goddess or mother or a visiting relative. Same for Ganeshaji. Seen people relating to Vishnu ji as a friend, a in-law, Saraswati maa as a sister, a aunt...
Went to Temple and tied rakhi to Ganeshji during raksha bandhan. This is how my relationship to Ganeshji is. Shivaji is more felt like husband. It's the form unseparable love took.

This is our relationship to God, Gods and Godesses. Not only Gaudiya, but as Hindus as a whole.

Aum Namah Shivaya

 

[DeviChaaya]

There is a long list, @Terese, of new sampradayas arising due to a saint's dissatisfaction with the way things are going. Some love Krishna above all, hence the Gaudiya Vaishnavas, some love Radha above all as She is believed to be the one who pleases even Krishna, some love Balaji, some love Visnu, there are so many different schools and sects even within those schools. What about merging the two? Take what draws you towards GV and merge it with Shri Vaishnavism.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Before i say anything i request you not to talk ill of Vaisnavism. Thank you.

Any sympathies for this poor fool? Basically i'm ranting about what friends the Lord associates and what form he chooses, i'm a lost cause

I don't think any one would do that here. Krishna (as his name means - pulls) is a magnet and we cannot fault you for being attracted to him. Meera did not know Narayana or anybody else. She only knew her dark one. "Mere to Giridhar Gopala, dusro na koi" (For me it is none other but the one who lifts the Govardhan mountain and tends cows).

There is one rendition by M.S. Subbulakshmi, that is considered a classic.

 

[निताइ dasa]

Jaya Nitaai!!

You will be attracted in accordance with your own inherent personal form and nature, so these feelings are natural. But, the question of whether I am attracted to this or that form of Krsna is actually something that only becomes important near the end of sadhana. What can happen often is a devotee moves through many conceptions of God and many moods until they spfnally are established in their own constitutional mood.

My recommendation would be to pray to Lord Krishna sitting in your heart, to guide you to the path that is best for you. Perhaps the Lord will lead you to your Gurudeva?

Like my personal story, for a long time I was attracted to the Lord, in His form as Ramachandra, and Lord Rama always has a special place in my heart. But it was only when I met my Gurudev, that I became certain that my place is at the lotus feet of Sri Sri Nitaai Gaura and Radha Krsna.

 

[Terese]

Jaya Nitaai!!

You will be attracted in accordance with your own inherent personal form and nature, so these feelings are natural. But, the question of whether I am attracted to this or that form of Krsna is actually something that only becomes important near the end of sadhana. What can happen often is a devotee moves through many conceptions of God and many moods until they spfnally are established in their own constitutional mood.

My recommendation would be to pray to Lord Krishna sitting in your heart, to guide you to the path that is best for you. Perhaps the Lord will lead you to your Gurudeva?

Like my personal story, for a long time I was attracted to the Lord, in His form as Ramachandra, and Lord Rama always has a special place in my heart. But it was only when I met my Gurudev, that I became certain that my place is at the lotus feet of Sri Sri Nitaai Gaura and Radha Krsna.

Pranam Nitai-dasa Near the end of sadhana? What do you mean?

I apologise if this is too personal of a question, but how did you meet your gurudeva?

 

[निताइ dasa]

Near the end of sadhana? What do you mean?

Its a bit complicated but I will try to explain what I have learnt from my elders.

Bhakti can be divided in 9 progressive steps

1) Sraddha

To even reach this stage is a direct result of pious credits in previous birth. When a fortunate soul, due to the grace of the Vaishnavs, gains faith (or Sraddha) towards Lord Vishnu and His devotees, and the message of the Scriptures, that person has reached this stage.

2) Sadhu Sanga

Due to their faith, the devotee will begin to associate with Vaishnavs as per their attraction towards a form of the Lord. They will learn from Vaishnavs, and among them accept a Guru, who will merciful give the disciple the Holy Name.

3) Bhajan Kriya

During this stage the devotee begins the process of Sadhana (spiritual practice). In accordance with the rules of scripture, they will chant the Holy Name of the Lord and perform the 9 limbs of Bhakti. During this stage the devotee is purified of all his previous Karma and His spiritual form begins to form.

4) Anartha Nivritthi

This is the longest phase. After ardent spiritual practice (or by the mercy of the Lord and His devotees), the anarthas or the defects covering the soul are slowly removed. When these anarthas are removed, the form of the Lord slowly rises in their heart (when chanting the Holy Name, the devotee should see the Form of Krsna directly).

5) Nishta

At this stage, because the devotee is seeing the form, they chant constantly. Nistha means steadfastness, and at this stage the devotee is steadfast in Bhakti.

6) Ruci

At this stage, the qualities of Krsna arise in ones heart. Due to the influence of the Holy Name, one can realize the qualities of Krsna, one can even hear His divine voice.

7) Ashakti

ashakti means detachment, and at this stage the devotee begins to see the pastimes of the Lord, which appear to them as they chant the Holy Name. They become totally distanced from the material world.

8) Bhava

In this stage the devotee tastes a drop of Prema (love for Krsna). Not only do they see the pastimes, but the Holy Name reveals to them their spiritual body, and the mood under which they are serving Krsna. When this body develops, the devotee can enter into the spiritual world while at the same time remaining in the material world. This is the highest stage attainable in the material world.

9) Prema

Finally Divine Love for Krsna manifests and the devotee enters into the spiritual world to eternally serve the Lord and His associates.



As you can see, ones spiritual form and mood is officially revealed in a very late stage of Bhava, but according to the Lord's Will, you will generally associate and again attraction to the school of Vaishnav philosophy as per your mood. If your eternal service is towards Lord Rama, then you will be attracted to the Ramanandi Sampradaya. If you are eternally worshiping Lord Narayana in Vaikuntha, then you will be attracted to the Sri or Madhva Sampradaya etc.

I apologise if this is too personal of a question, but how did you meet your gurudeva?

I met my Gurudev hmmm about I'd say 8 years ago. Actually I was deeply attracted to the Gaudiya Sampradaya from very young but all the great personalities had already left the earth at the time. I was attracted quite alot to Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayan Maharaj and Srila Gour Govinda Swami, but they both had left their bodies earlier. I always prayed to Lord Nitaai Gaur and Radha Krsna to please send a personality whom I can take Shelter of. Of course, Nitaai is very merciful and I soon met my Gurudev. He accepted open heartily. My Gurudev was always a very online person so it was easy to find him and after associating with him for a few years, it confirmed He was a genuine Vaishnav. He never criticized anyone for any reason and was deeply knowledgeable about scripture. When he would since Kirtan, tears would appear in my eyes just from hearing the sound vibrations. I always remember His one of his first instructions to me "Always we humble, think yourself lower than a blade of grass, because this is the one quality that attracts God.". My Gurudev at that time was heavily preaching the glories of Lord Nityananda and Gauranga to the Gaudiya community. I mean if you look at his Youtube channel, he has uploaded like 2000+ videos of his lectures and talks over his years, from 7 day lectures on Srimad Bhagavatam, to talks on more confidential books like Navadwip Dhama Mahatmya. It was only in 2012 in Ekachakra that Lord Nitaai gave Him the order to preach and start the Nitaai Mission and he has been doing it ever since. .