In Addition to: "Shaktism, only for Siddhis"; Westernization of Hinduism; Alienation; TANTRA

[Aupmanyav]

ratiben just went ...

... All over my op.​

​

Poeticus, this is 'kalari' (I think - a flexible blade sword or you can say a long sword), and the art is Kalaripayattu. One freedom fighter of Kerala was so adept at it (in the days when British first came to Kerala) that even their bullets could not reach him. I will try if I can find the name of the martyr.

Wait, why is Poeticus called MV. I don't understand. Can someone explain?

All of us know but would not tell you without the permission. Poeticus himself may tell you.
Perhaps MV means Maha Vishnu.

 

[ratikala]

Ratiben just went ...

... all over my OP.​

horrible immage !!! ... totaly un vedic ,....

saris must be worn modestly at all times ....at least by devotees ...

or will someone now say that is an imposition of the christians ???

 

[Aupmanyav]

Looks very much like my grandma.
I think everybody in India had a grandmother like her at that time.

 

[Nyingjé Tso]

Almost all sampraday have their own yuga dharma, in all respects, why should Bhagavad gita be the only valid one for everybody ?

 

[atanu]

namaskaram MV ji

ok , you asked for thoughts ?

may I be so bold as to suggest looking at things a little differently ?

please may I request all reading to give fair thought to a different approach
this is not the entire of my thoughts on the subject m more thoughts for consideration before we jump to the obvious conclusions .....

.....firstly I have to ask what is ''Western /Anglican Hinduism'' ??? ...OK I understand that the west is prety confused and through its eclecticism seems to be confusing it self still further by over complicating and over analising , this is prehaps a product of the ego thinking it self to be highly inteligent and praisworthy interlectualy ???

but as far as I see it it is far more simple , here it seens to be implied that the Gita has been promoted by the British (or the westerner) as it is .....1. mono theistic , ..and ...2. closer to christianity than Tantrism (due to its elements of renunciation etc, ...)

However this theorising overlooks the simple fact that the Bhagavad Gita (which ever language it is read in !) is the Yuga Dharma for this age dillivered by Bhagavan Sri Krsna himself , therefore has been existant for 5000 years , ..dispite the fact that these quasi interlectuals seem to think that they can date the Gita by identifying the style of sanskrit the existing or known copies are written in ??? and come up with a false date which suits to fit their prevailing theories .....

so please forget the theorised age of the Gita and rely upon the word of Sri Bhagavan
...''where ever there is a decline in religosity I my self will manifest '' ...and this he did to usher in Kali yuga , thus the Dharma as spoken by Sri Krsna is the Yuga dharma of this age , .....and many indiginous indians practiced this Yuga Dharma before the arival of the Muslims , before the arival of the Portugese , the French or the British , ..and before Victorian sencibilities were introduced to India during the Raj ....

Poppycock ....they did what any person who wanted to better them selves and their society would do and took advantage of an advantagious international education


here I agree , ...

however there is much I do not agree with and think that we should think carefully before adopting what might at first seem plausable , ....(because we wish it to be plausable to further our bigoted opinions of some historical figures ?)

just because the author is half American half Indian it gives him no more insight to pre victorian India , than it does you or I , if we wish to study it .


I hate to say it but there are some practices that appear barbaric and superstitious to a vaisnava , we dont need missionarys to pinpoint these differences , they existed allready before the arival of the british and the missionaries ....


I have nothing against tantrikas practicing what they will but I have everything against this devisive belittling of the Yuga Dharma and the suggestion that it was implanted by the divisiveness of outsiders ??? or that various Indian schollars were acting merely as puppets in their deception .

as far as I am concerned some coments put forward here constitute an apradha .


frankly does it matter which language it is read in , isnt it better that it is read ? ...and what is most important sinserely studied .


''pitza effect '' ? ....what is this ? .....many toppings , ..sellect your own ? .. a sure
recipy for desaster !.....better we concentrate on mastering one thing , let a vaisnava stick to his texts and let a tantrika stich to his , and christians should be good christaians and none should denegrate another , and just because one in ignorance does the wrong thing it dosent sanction us to do the same !


I dont nececarly think that these theories stand up , and think that it would be wise to question very caerfully before supposing them to be more than speculation intended to back personal opinion .


there you have my thoughts , ..
and I allways wished I had learnt to play the mrdanga

Bravo. I agree wholeheartedly.

I believe that Time has its course all charted up. Enlightened Gurus do not find faults with individuals or groups.

Actually, being a Hindu and finding fault in a historical person is a contradiction. Does the Soul have a country, race, gender, or religion? And who knows the rebirth history of a person?

 

[Chakra]

Almost all sampraday have their own yuga dharma, in all respects, why should Bhagavad gita be the only valid one for everybody ?

I'm not sure what you mean by Bhagavad Gita being a "yuga dharma". Sri Vaishnavas' yuga dharma is complete surrender to Vishnu, Gaudiya's yuga dharma is to chant, sing, and dance the names of Vishnu. Other sampradayas have their own, like Shaktas and Shaivas.

I'm not sure what you mean. Could you please clarify?
Regards

 

[Poeticus]

Wait, why is Poeticus called MV. I don't understand. Can someone explain?

I still refer to myself or go by the abbreviations of my previous screen-name (maitravarunih; MV). Unfortunately, the screen-name was in the Devanagari and it forbade the allowance of having an avatar due to a glitch (or sumtin'). Thus, I changed my screen-name to something else so I could finally have an avatar.

horrible immage !!! ... totaly un vedic ,....

saris must be worn modestly at all times ....at least by devotees ...

or will someone now say that is an imposition of the christians ???

Beautiful Gujarati sari ! And I was just trying to say you went bam-bam; pow-pow; Sunny Deol on the OP .

 

[Chakra]

Almost all sampraday have their own yuga dharma, in all respects, why should Bhagavad gita be the only valid one for everybody ?

I'm not sure what you mean by Bhagavad Gita being a "yuga dharma". Sri Vaishnavas' yuga dharma is complete surrender to Vishnu, Gaudiya's yuga dharma is to chant, sing, and dance the names of Vishnu. Other sampradayas have their own, like Shaktas and Shaivas.

I'm not sure what you mean. Could you please clarify?
Regards

Dear JayaBholenath ji,
Now I understand that you were talking about ratikala-ji's response.

Bhagavad Gita is not a "yuga dharma", but does include some of the main dharmas.

The Bhagavad Gita is a central piece in Vedantic schools; everyone from Adi Shankara to Srila Prabhupada has written a commentary on it. For non-Vedantic schools, they may replace the Gita with other texts.

Each sect have their own main "dharmas", as you pointed out.

For Vedantins (Vaishnavas), the Vedanta, Bhagavad Gita, and the Upanishads are the main texts.

For Shaiva Siddhanta, it is probably the Vedas, Upanishads, and other texts, excluding the Gita.

It boils down to you. I don't know of Shaiva Siddhanta scriptures, but if they can help you find your "yuga dharma", then great.

Regards

 

[Vinayaka]

For Shaiva Siddhanta, it is probably the Vedas, Upanishads, and other texts, excluding the Gita.

It's the Saiva Agamas. For us, Agamas are right beside the Vedas. The Adisaiva priests of South India chant from the Agamas and Vedas.

http://www.saivism.net/articles/agamas.asp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Āgama_(Hinduism)

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram MV ji

I still refer to myself or go by the abbreviations of my previous screen-name (maitravarunih; MV). Unfortunately, the screen-name was in the Devanagari and it forbade the allowance of having an avatar due to a glitch (or sumtin'). Thus, I changed my screen-name to something else so I could finally have an avatar.

and you chose a cat ? ...a literary cat ? ....some things I will never understand

Beautiful Gujarati sari ! And I was just trying to say you went bam-bam; pow-pow; Sunny Deol on the OP .

now look here young brother ji .....what is Sunny Deol ???

....Hmmm I googled Sunny Deol , ....now that to me is the epitomy of un dignified !!!

enough of this....'' bam-bam ; Pow-Pow ;'' ....

you asked for comments you got comments ....

so now what do you think ?

atanu ji makes a very astute remark .....

quote atanu ....I believe that Time has its course all charted up. Enlightened Gurus do not find faults with individuals or groups.

Actually, being a Hindu and finding fault in a historical person is a contradiction. Does the Soul have a country, race, gender, or religion? And who knows the rebirth history of a person?

in fact two very astute remarks , ...

First , ....''Time has its course all charted up ''

Second , ....Enlightened Gurus dont find faults .....

I had a little time to reflect upon those coments whilst taking Prasad and came to the conclusion that it is a symptom of immaturity to criticise and to find fault , it is the inexperienced need to defeat another to make oneself appear superior , ...how ever as atanu ji rightly said , ...the guru has no need to find fault , he will understand error and may correct it , but there is no need to atain victory by trampling on another , ...this Mr Nick however is not so wise , and here on this site we all too often fall foul of the same mistake , ....

this constant criticism of sects , gurus and leaders to me is offensive , it is enough to make me stop posting , I find it dissrespectfull and a sad indication of the state of mind all to prevelant today .

rather than let such articles fuel the divides between sects , we should question their validity , ...

so returning to the initial question , ....does the westernisation of Hinduism alienate Tantra ?

if we are to take the postulation put forward by Mr Nick , .... we would be hoodwinked into thinking that the victorian sencibilities had Hinduism sanitised and forcably had tantra eclipsed by the promotion of the Bhagavad Gita , ....

or we could look at it objectively , ...Tantra is one path amongst many taught by a minority of gurus by comparison to other hindu sampradayas and is only suited for a limeted number of practitioners , ..it is not suitable for lay practitioners and must be intensively studied under the close tutorage of a qualified master , so in that respect it is self limiting ...

what has come out to the west are the philosopies and forms of worship most comonly practiced in india and have established them selves due to the Hindu comunities who have taken up residence here , these are mostly economic migrants , so the most common form of hinduism taught and practiced is that suitable for the lay comunity .

in the west we have a very warped idea of Tantra , it sounds a bit special , Fast track to liberation with out giving up any of ones pet endulgences , ...liberation without renunciation !!! ...in ten easy steps , you can veiw it on youtube, .. or buy the book ....
...sorry No , ..it is not that easy , ...and it is not Cool , it is hard work , ...maybe that is the reason it appears to have been alienated , because it is infact self limiting ???

thoughts please , ....

and why I had said that the Bhagavad Gita was this yugas Dharma is that apart from explaining our relationship to the supreme , it is that it advocates bhakti yoga (devotional service and chanting of nama ), as being most efective means of liberation for the mentality of people in this age .

 

[Chakra]

It's the Saiva Agamas. For us, Agamas are right beside the Vedas. The Adisaiva priests of South India chant from the Agamas and Vedas.

Agamas, The Sacred Literature Of Saivism

Ä€gama (Hinduism) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Dear Sir,
Thank you for the information.

Of course, I was simply guessing that JayaBholenath's sampradaya is Shaiva Siddhanta. I would still assume that most of the Shaiva sects share the same texts, like Vaishnavas.

 

[Vinayaka]

We all share the Vedas.

 

[Chakra]

We all share the Vedas.

Yes, but some sects differ on their secondary texts.

 

[Vinayaka]

Sorry, I think you misunderstand. From my POV, all the sects are brothers and sisters. One thing amongst many that all Hindus have in common is the Vedas. I see similarities as vastly outweighing differences. This, to me, is the correct spirit.

Yes, we have our differences philosophically and culturally. But you and Ratikala, and everyone else are my brothers and sisters.

 

[Chakra]

Sorry, I think you misunderstand. From my POV, all the sects are brothers and sisters. One thing amongst many that all Hindus have in common is the Vedas. I see similarities as vastly outweighing differences. This, to me, is the correct spirit.

Yes, we have our differences philosophically and culturally. But you and Ratikala, and everyone else are my brothers and sisters.

Dear Sir,
I was simply saying that although the Vedas/Upanishads are the main texts for all sects, each sect also have their own secondary texts. I was simply not sure if JB was a S. Siddhanta follower and that is why I made that comment.
Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Regards

 

[Poeticus]

namaskaram MV ji



and you chose a cat ? ...a literary cat ? ....some things I will never understand

... ouch ! :sad:

now look here young brother ji .....what is Sunny Deol ???

....Hmmm I googled Sunny Deol , ....now that to me is the epitomy of un dignified !!!

enough of this....'' bam-bam ; Pow-Pow ;'' ....

you asked for comments you got comments ....

so now what do you think ?

... that you just went "Fatality" on me. All that's left now is: "Finish him !" (<--- it's a Mortal Kombat reference )

EDIT:

BTW, without Sunny Deol there would be no India :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=[youtube]kzVU4p1Yj8o[/youtube]

 

[atanu]

... ouch ! :sad:
... that you just went "Fatality" on me. All that's left now is: "Finish him !"

Ha Ha.

I truly relish to death fights. Ha Ha.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Beautiful Gujarati sari !

Saris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sari) - Patola from Gujarat.

Western India (Rajasthan, Gujarat, Maharashtra): Kota, Paithani, Bandhej, Lahariya, Kota doria, Lugade, Bagru, Patola.

Central India (Uttar Pradesh, Madhya Pradesh): Banarasi silk, Chanderi, Maheshwari, Kosa silk, Dhokra silk, Shalu, Tanchoi.

Eastern India: (West Bengal/Odisha/Assam/Manipur and Bangladesh): Jamdani, Tangail Tant, Muslin, Rajshahi silk (Eri), Tussar silk, Dhakai Katan, Khadi/Comilla, Jute cotton, Mooga silk, Mekhla Cotton, Dhaniakhali Cotton, Shantipuri cotton, Phulia Cotton, Begumpur Cotton, Garad Saree (korial), Farshganj Tant, Murshidabad Silk, Baluchari Silk, Kantha silk & cotton, Batic, Sambalpuri Silk & Cotton, Ikkat Silk & Cotton, Bomkai Silk & Cotton Saree, Khandua Silk & Cotton, Sonepuri Silk & Cotton, Berhampuri silk, Mattha Silk, Bapta Silk & Cotton, Balasore Tanta Cotton, Manipuri Tant.

South India (Karnataka, Andhra, Telangana, Tamilnadu, Kerala - SriLanka saris, if there are any, not included): Mysore silk, Kanchipuram (Kanjivaram pattu), Kumbakonam, Mundum Neriyathum, Thirubuvanam, Thanjore, Madurai, Coimbatore cotton, Chinnalapattu or Sungudi, Pochampally or Puttapaka, Mangalgiri & Venkatagiri, Gadwal, Narayanpet, Balarampuram, Molakalmuru silk, Dharmavaram silk.

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram

my dearest brother , poeticus

... ouch ! :sad:

please take no offence , at there is much that I dont understand , as it is a reflection upon my self not upon you dear brother .

... that you just went "Fatality" on me. All that's left now is: "Finish him !" (<--- it's a Mortal Kombat reference )

and please rest assured it was Mr Nick that I wished to demolish not my dear MV after I would be lost without you as a great number of the interesting posts started around here are started by your good self

BTW, without Sunny Deol there would be no India :

and not knowing what is Sunny Deol I google him , ...see I am learning

you can imagine my horror , you know I am not into all this bollywood hedonism....
or this awfull pinup stuff , ....If he is a Sing then where is his dignity ....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=[youtube]kzVU4p1Yj8o[/youtube]

thank you will watch later ....actuIy would be interested to understand more about the more recent border conflicts , ....

there was a briliant opening shot of three jets flying over the sari clad women on the ground winnowing , saddly this is india today the stark contrast between age old tradition and 20th c tecnology , ....

this is what Mr Nick dosent see ,...and before he criticises Ghandi for studying in england he should think what he did with his education and who he tirelessly worked for . .......

ironicaly my Sunny Deol studied acting in england .....wickipedia says so , ....see told you I was learning ....

so on one hand it is a travesty to learn to read and to prctice law in england but it is laudable to studdy drama ???? .......see I told you there is much I do not understand

however he looks much better with a beard and turban , ....

 

[raater_aloo]

Hey y'all. Just joined up in this forum to jump in on this thread. I am the author of the piece which was linked to in OP. I'm glad that it sparked some interest and discussion here. I've been watching the discussion for some time without interfering, but I think its time for me to make some responses to those who offered criticisms. So far, thats atanu, TatTvamAsi, and ratikala. Mainly what spurred me on was that I got tired of being a punching bag for ratikala, who seems to have misunderstood many of the ideas in my essay, and wrote the most about it. I'll address all of your posts individually, but If you think I was totally off base and that Ratikala's critiques were spot on, I encourage you to read the whole thing. I'll have to split it up over several posts, because as it stands it is too long.

First to address the great points brought up by atanu, who I think made the best points:

To be fair, however, let me just point out two things:

1. Gita is part of prastanatrayi: upanishads, Gita, and Brahma Sutra, that all gurus of Hinduism have commented upon. Shankara did it much before the english influence. Hindu teachers of all schools from south, north, west and east have studied Gita in conjunction with the upanishads. Gita is a distilled compendium of most important Vedantic Shrutis and has no thought that contradicts Veda.

You are right! Gita is a part of the prastanatrayi in Vedanta. This shows that *among the Smriti* the Gita is the foremost text. Perhaps I should have mentioned that in my article. But my point wasn't that the Gita was obscure to intellectuals or was accorded no respect before the British. My point was that now, it is elevated to equal status of the Upanishads and Vedas, despite being a Smriti text. Hinduism is usually defined in public discourse in relation to the Gita. It has a similar place in modern, western influenced Hinduism, as the Bible does in Christianity or the Quran does in Islam. This is not the way it was treated historically. Historically it was one well respected book amongst several, and was overshadowed by the Vedas, and Upanishads. However, that pretty much only pertains to theologians. On the more popular level it was overshadowed by the Puranas, particularly the Bhagvata Purana among Vaishnavites, and in rural Bengal (and presumebally other parts of India which I haven't studied as deeply), overshadowed largely by non-textual Tantric traditions. My article is not so much concerned with what Pandits think of Hindusim, but rather what the majority interpretion of it is amongst practitioners, and the influence of colonialism in forming the Bengal Renaissance interpretation of Hinduism. It is very well documented that at the advent of British colonialism, the Gita was well read by the Pandits, but only had a smattering of popularity on the mass-devotional level. If you don't believe me about this, or about anything else I say, just ask and I'll send you a citation.

2. There is specific reference in Shruti to left hand path and the upanishadic sages point out that the right hand path as better and safer for attainment of moksha. Nevertheless, agamic Tantra teachings are held in high esteem by most Hindu schools.

Also correct! I appreciate you pointing out this information which balances out my portrayal, and I think that this, like your prior point, is integrated in my position even if it wasn't stated in the article. The Upanishads say that one should avoid the left hand path for the sake of the practitioner's safety. I fully agree, but I'd also posit that they caution against left hand practices because the authors of the Upanishads weren't themselves left hand practitioners, and wanted to attract people to their method as opposed to a competing method. Its also important to note that the Upanishads were written before the mlecchas of Bengal (Angas, Vangas, and those to the east of Vanga) had been Sanskritized, so the left-hand-path they were accepting as legitimate, but cautioning against, is not what we know as Tantra today. We don't know what the Upanishadic sages would have thought of Bengali tantra.

Yes, the Agamic Tantra teachings are held in esteem by most Hindu schools--- I agree. I didn't say that Tantra had been expunged from Hinduism. I'm just talking about the change in relative statures. Thanks for pointing out that Tantra is in fact STILL ALIVE!!

I really appreciate your comments atanu. Great feedback. I probably should have addressed your points in the original article, but having a back and forth after the fact is good too. In fact I think that later on tonight I'll revise the article to include some of what you brought up. However there was one thing you said which I didn't like so much:

Is this young atheist half Indian student a competent judge of works of Dayanand Saraswati or Rammohan Roy, both renown Vedic scholars? Or does he really know the status of Gita or is he venting his bias?

Its good to point out that I could be biased of course, but I don't know what my race has to do with my competency. This will come up later as well. Why does my lack of belief in god or my race make me less competent to judge the works of Saraswati or Roy? If I've demonstrated that I don't know my facts, please prove me wrong, but please don't appeal to my race as a reason to doubt me.

I'd also like to note that while its obvious from the article that I see a lot of value in Tantra, and also in other branches of traditional Hinduism like the teachings of the Vedas and Upanishads, I don't see the westernization of Hinduism as an unmitigated harm. This was mostly a historical or sociological article, not a theological one. The west has a lot of good ideas, and India has a lot of good ideas. The point of the article wasn't that this trend of westernization is good or bad in the abstract, but rather that it causes disjunction between those sectors of Hindu religion, culture, and society which are more westernized, and those which are more traditional.