In the beginning

[Jeremiah Ames]

When you step back and look at the big picture, it all makes perfect sense....but when you take bits and pieces and try to fit them into a preconceived idea, nothing adds up. The big picture is awesome!

Well, that’s the best quote I’ve seen in a long time
Precisely how I’ve been viewing it recently.

 

[Clear]

The first verse of the Bible.

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. KJV

Interesting line. Lots of information. We could dissect it for eternity and continue to understand more and more. Yet, I want to keep this as simple and easy as possible, so just one question.

What exactly did God create?

Hi Gerry;

I don't want to enter into the discussion of this thread other than to make a discrete point. The Hebrew word that we render heaven (שמים / shamayim) denotes a plurality. That is, there is no singular form of this noun. It is the "heavens". The greek word in Genesis 1:1 is ουρανον (a singular), but many times, in the new testament, when the sentence is rendered "heaven" in english, the actual greek word is plural "heavens". Example : Matt 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of [the] heavens (των ουρανων). In such cases it is sometimes thought that it represents hebrew underling this speech (since greek has BOTH singular AND plural forms for the specific word "heaven").

At any rate, I cannot tell if this adds anything to your speculations or not.

Good luck coming up with a model for what you think is going on.

Clear
φυνεφυω

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

Hi Gerry;

I don't want to enter into the discussion of this thread other than to make a discrete point. The Hebrew word that we render heaven (שמים / shamayim) denotes a plurality. That is, there is no singular form of this noun. It is the "heavens". The greek word in Genesis 1:1 is ουρανον (a singular), but many times, in the new testament, when the sentence is rendered "heaven" in english, the actual greek word is plural "heavens". Example : Matt 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of [the] heavens (των ουρανων). In such cases it is sometimes thought that it represents hebrew underling this speech (since greek has BOTH singular AND plural forms for the specific word "heaven").

At any rate, I cannot tell if this adds anything to your speculations or not.

Good luck coming up with a model for what you think is going on.

Clear
φυνεφυω

I appreciate your response.
My personal opinion is that there are 3 heavens which make up what I would call ‘heaven’ for simplicity. But now that you mention this, I think I will try to use the word ‘heavens’ from now on. For accuracy sake.

 

[Clear]

I appreciate your response.
My personal opinion is that there are 3 heavens which make up what I would call ‘heaven’ for simplicity. But now that you mention this, I think I will try to use the word ‘heavens’ from now on. For accuracy sake.

POST ONE OF

Hi Gerry :

Again, I don’t particularly want to enter into the debate regarding creation, but would like to respond to your specific comment that there are multiple heavens, or multiple levels within the condition and place of “heaven”.

I like your model of multiple levels/places/conditions within heaven. The ancient Judeo-Christians describe the model of multiple heavens as well.

1) There were multiple heavens of varying levels described in ancient Judao-Christian texts.

2Co 12:2-5 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. (3) And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth (4) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

This ancient model of different levels of heavenly reward in early texts was not a “light switch” model where one is either in a highest heaven or sent to a darkest hell, but rather it was more just model with varied heavens of differing levels of glory, “Because on the day of the great judgment. Every weight and every measure and every set of scales will be just as they are in the market. That is to say, each will be weighed in the balance, and each will stand in the market, and each will find out his own measure and in accordance with that measurement each shall receive his own reward.” (2nd Enoch 44:5)

The early literature is full of references to such references of “the 3rd heaven” which is “closed off from this world. And the guards are appointed at the very large gates to the east of the sun, angels of flame, singing victory songs, never silent, rejoicing at the arrival of the righteous. (2nd Enoch 42:4) Enoch speaks of going “up to the highest heaven, [into the highest Jerusalem], into my eternal inheritance.” (2nd Enoch 55:1-2)

It made perfect sense to the Early Judao-christians to have the angel Michael be commanded “Take him up into Paradise, to the third heaven, and leave (him) there until that great and fearful day which I am about to establish for the world.” Life of Adam and Eve (apocalypse) 37:3-6

Another angel tells the Prophet Sedrach : “I was sent to you that I may carry you up into heavens. But the angel, having stretched out his wings, took him and went up into the heavens, and took him up as far as the third heaven, and the flame of the divinity stood there.” (The Apocalypse of Sedrach 2:3-5)

2) The varying numbering systems of multiple heavens (i.e. multiple heavens and/or multiple levels or places within multiple heavens....

While THREE heavens is often spoken of, multiple texts describe higher numbers. Sometimes it is clear that the higher numbers represent levels or places within a specific heaven and at other times the various heavens represent the concept that there are differing places (usually “levels”) for individuals having different characteristics.

At present, I use an economic model as a context for understanding the various heavens. . For example, we might describe individuals as “the rich” and “the poor” in certain contexts. Though we use these terms, the description is not useful to describe specific levels of “rich” and “poor”. We might be more accurate and divide economic divisions as “lower class”, “middle class” and “upper class”. However, even this rough division does not tell us that in the upper class there are multi-millionaires and there are multi-billionaires, just as there are the somewhat poor and then there are the desperately poor. Economists who want to divide the divisions up even more accurately might use “upper middle class” or “lower middle class”, etc.

The same principle of various levels is sometimes seen in the various early textual descriptions of heavenly divisions. My point is simply that there were varying levels of reward in early judeo-christian belief and one can see differing organizations of them based on moral characteristics of their inhabitants and of varying conditions in the various heavens.

For example. The Haggadah tells us that “ Several heavens were created, seven in fact, each to serve a purpose of it own.”. The highest heaven was described as containing “ ...naught but what is good and beautiful: right, justice, and mercy, the storehouses of life, peace, and blessing, the souls of the pious, the souls and spirits of unborn generations...” as well as “ the divine throne, surrounded by the seraphim, [...] and the ministering angels.” (The Haggadah (The alphabet) ch 2)

…, saying to him “Take him up into Paradise, to the third heaven, and leave (him) there until that great and fearful day…”. Life of Adam and Eve (apocalypse) 37:3-6

POST TWO OF TWO FOLLOWS

 

[Clear]

POST TWO OF TWO

All the Powers of the Abyss he spread out to ten Heavens and to eight earthsTHE COPTIC PSALM-BOOK - LET US WORSHIP THE SPIRIT OF THE PARACLETE Psalm 223 (allberry 9-11)

Prince of the divine presence, the glory of the highest heaven, said to me.... 3rd Enoch 16:1;

…the Father of my Lord, as he said to my Lord Christ, who will be called Jesus, “Go out and descend through all the heavens… and you shall not be transformed in each of the heavens, but in glory you shall ascend and sit at my right hand, …” Martyrdom and Ascension of Isaiah . 10:6-16

he bore me up on the stormy wings of the Sekinah to the highest heaven... 3rd Enoch 7:1 ; 8:2 & 9:1;

“…the eternal Word of the father. The seven heavens could scarcely contain you, …The Gospel of Bartholomew chapt two

“….For tomorrow morning I shall go up to the highest heaven…. “ 2nd Enoch 55:1-2.

“…into the four quarters of the heaven of Arabot, into the seven heavens, …3rd Enoch 12:5;

And those who kept the gate of the (third) heaven demanded the password….And again I saw when he descended into the second heaven, …he descended into the first heaven,…. Martyrdom and Ascension of Isaiah 10:24-30;

And on the 10th heaven, Aravoth, I saw the view of the face of the Lord…. 2nd Enoch 44:1-2; 2nd Enoch 21:3-5 and 22:1-6

“...The angels of the first heaven, when they see their Prince…. The Prince of the first heaven, when he sees the Prince of the second heaven, he removes the glorious crown from his head and falls prostrate…. the first palace which is in Arabot, the highest heaven, they remove the kingly crowns … 3 Enoch18:3

… it is open as far as the 3rd heaven; but it is closed off from this world. 2nd Enoch 42:3-5; A

“…exalt His glory in all the heavens of His rule. They sing wonderful psalms according to their insight throughout the highest heaven, …. 4Q400.

“…expanses under me, the heavens, opened and I saw on the seventh firmament upon which I stood a fire spread…. The Apocalypse of Abraham 19: 1-5

“Bless the God of the godlike beings, you who inhabit the highest heaven [...] those called to the highest of heights [...] Masada Frag. 1

“…His glorious divinity above all the highest heavens... 4Q403 Frag. 1 Col 1

I was sent to you that I may carry you up into heavens. But the angel…, took him and went up into the heavens, and took him up as far as the third heaven, …The Apocalypse of Sedrach 2:3-5;

…Scripture also says about him, “Over it take your seat in the highest heaven;11Q13 Col 2 (11 Q here is a wonderful example of a mishnic text, thus it is quite important regarding early doctrine)

The angels of your heavens are now committing sin …1st Enoch 84:4&6

… And he took me up to the seventh heaven, ….they will receive their robes and their thrones and their crowns, when he has ascended into the seventh heaven. Martyrdom and Ascension of Isaiah 9:8-18

….because of you I am expelled and deprived of my glory which I had in the heavens in the midst of angels, Life of Adam and Eve (Vita)

…the angel of the church which is in the heavens, …Martyrdom and Ascension of Isaiah . 3:15-18;

… take the keys of the sanctuary, and cast them to the highest heaven, and give them to the Lord …The apocalypse of Baruch (Baruch 2) 10:18;


3) The concept of multiple levels in heaven corresponding to differing characteristics of the inhabitants of the various heavens

Thus Irenaeus, in describing what used to be taught by the “elders” was that “...those who have been deemed worthy of an abode in heaven go there, while others will enjoy the delight of Paradise, and still others will possess the brightness of the city; for in every place the Savior will be seen, to the degree that those who see him are worthy. They say, moreover, that this is the distinction between the dwelling of those who bring forth an hundredfold, and those who bring forth sixtyfold, and those who bring forth thirtyfold : the firstwill be taken up into the heavens, and second will dwell in Paradise, and the thirdwill inhabit the city. For this reason, therefore, our Lord has said, “In my Father’s house there are many rooms”; for all things are of God, who gives to all their appropriate dwelling...The elders, the disciples of the apostles, say that this is the order and arrangement of those who are being saved, and that they advance by such steps, and ascend through the Spirit to the Son, and through the Son to the Father...” (Irenaeus, Against Heresies #5)

The close parallel to the same doctrine is obvious to historians and to the restorationists. The spirits world (“sheol” or “hell”, etc) to whom spirits of the dead go “ will pay back its debt, and the place of perdition will return it’s deposit so that I may render to each according to his works and according to the fruits of his own devices, until I judge between soul and flesh. (Pseudo-Philo 3:10)

The early Judao-Christian description of varying levels of heaven corresponding to varying levels of reward appropriate to the varying characteristics of those being judged had distinct hierarchies. The “higher levels” of heaven and their corresponding glories are honored by the lower levels of heaven. This sort of hierarchy of respect and glories is described by the Prophet Enoch when he says that “...the angels of the first heaven, when they see their Prince,... fall prostrate. The Prince of the first heaven, when he sees the Prince of the second heaven, he removes the glorious crown from his head and falls prostrate....” and so on.

Higher and more Glorious heavens are honored by the lower heavens. This honor shown by princes is the same as the honor the guardians of the entrances to the various heavens show to the guardians of the higher heavens. “...The guardians of the door of the first palace, when they see the guardians of the door of the second palace, they remove their glorious crowns from their heads and fall prostrate. The guardians of the door of the second palace... “ etc, etc. (3 Enoch18:3)

While most of the later Christian movements adopted the “light switch” theory of “either” a single heavenly reward OR a single torturous hell, I think the earlier Christian model of multiple levels of reward or multiple levels of punishment is much more logical and rational and justifiable.

Again Gerry, I hope your spiritual journey is wonderful and you come to your own understanding and are able to create and adopt your own models as to the nature of existence and what God is doing.

Clear
σεφιφιω

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

POST TWO OF TWO

All the Powers of the Abyss he spread out to ten Heavens and to eight earthsTHE COPTIC PSALM-BOOK - LET US WORSHIP THE SPIRIT OF THE PARACLETE Psalm 223 (allberry 9-11)

Prince of the divine presence, the glory of the highest heaven, said to me.... 3rd Enoch 16:1;

…the Father of my Lord, as he said to my Lord Christ, who will be called Jesus, “Go out and descend through all the heavens… and you shall not be transformed in each of the heavens, but in glory you shall ascend and sit at my right hand, …” Martyrdom and Ascension of Isaiah . 10:6-16

he bore me up on the stormy wings of the Sekinah to the highest heaven... 3rd Enoch 7:1 ; 8:2 & 9:1;

“…the eternal Word of the father. The seven heavens could scarcely contain you, …The Gospel of Bartholomew chapt two

“….For tomorrow morning I shall go up to the highest heaven…. “ 2nd Enoch 55:1-2.

“…into the four quarters of the heaven of Arabot, into the seven heavens, …3rd Enoch 12:5;

And those who kept the gate of the (third) heaven demanded the password….And again I saw when he descended into the second heaven, …he descended into the first heaven,…. Martyrdom and Ascension of Isaiah 10:24-30;

And on the 10th heaven, Aravoth, I saw the view of the face of the Lord…. 2nd Enoch 44:1-2; 2nd Enoch 21:3-5 and 22:1-6

“...The angels of the first heaven, when they see their Prince…. The Prince of the first heaven, when he sees the Prince of the second heaven, he removes the glorious crown from his head and falls prostrate…. the first palace which is in Arabot, the highest heaven, they remove the kingly crowns … 3 Enoch18:3

… it is open as far as the 3rd heaven; but it is closed off from this world. 2nd Enoch 42:3-5; A

“…exalt His glory in all the heavens of His rule. They sing wonderful psalms according to their insight throughout the highest heaven, …. 4Q400.

“…expanses under me, the heavens, opened and I saw on the seventh firmament upon which I stood a fire spread…. The Apocalypse of Abraham 19: 1-5

“Bless the God of the godlike beings, you who inhabit the highest heaven [...] those called to the highest of heights [...] Masada Frag. 1

“…His glorious divinity above all the highest heavens... 4Q403 Frag. 1 Col 1

I was sent to you that I may carry you up into heavens. But the angel…, took him and went up into the heavens, and took him up as far as the third heaven, …The Apocalypse of Sedrach 2:3-5;

…Scripture also says about him, “Over it take your seat in the highest heaven;11Q13 Col 2 (11 Q here is a wonderful example of a mishnic text, thus it is quite important regarding early doctrine)

The angels of your heavens are now committing sin …1st Enoch 84:4&6

… And he took me up to the seventh heaven, ….they will receive their robes and their thrones and their crowns, when he has ascended into the seventh heaven. Martyrdom and Ascension of Isaiah 9:8-18

….because of you I am expelled and deprived of my glory which I had in the heavens in the midst of angels, Life of Adam and Eve (Vita)

…the angel of the church which is in the heavens, …Martyrdom and Ascension of Isaiah . 3:15-18;

… take the keys of the sanctuary, and cast them to the highest heaven, and give them to the Lord …The apocalypse of Baruch (Baruch 2) 10:18;


3) The concept of multiple levels in heaven corresponding to differing characteristics of the inhabitants of the various heavens

Thus Irenaeus, in describing what used to be taught by the “elders” was that “...those who have been deemed worthy of an abode in heaven go there, while others will enjoy the delight of Paradise, and still others will possess the brightness of the city; for in every place the Savior will be seen, to the degree that those who see him are worthy. They say, moreover, that this is the distinction between the dwelling of those who bring forth an hundredfold, and those who bring forth sixtyfold, and those who bring forth thirtyfold : the firstwill be taken up into the heavens, and second will dwell in Paradise, and the thirdwill inhabit the city. For this reason, therefore, our Lord has said, “In my Father’s house there are many rooms”; for all things are of God, who gives to all their appropriate dwelling...The elders, the disciples of the apostles, say that this is the order and arrangement of those who are being saved, and that they advance by such steps, and ascend through the Spirit to the Son, and through the Son to the Father...” (Irenaeus, Against Heresies #5)

The close parallel to the same doctrine is obvious to historians and to the restorationists. The spirits world (“sheol” or “hell”, etc) to whom spirits of the dead go “ will pay back its debt, and the place of perdition will return it’s deposit so that I may render to each according to his works and according to the fruits of his own devices, until I judge between soul and flesh. (Pseudo-Philo 3:10)

The early Judao-Christian description of varying levels of heaven corresponding to varying levels of reward appropriate to the varying characteristics of those being judged had distinct hierarchies. The “higher levels” of heaven and their corresponding glories are honored by the lower levels of heaven. This sort of hierarchy of respect and glories is described by the Prophet Enoch when he says that “...the angels of the first heaven, when they see their Prince,... fall prostrate. The Prince of the first heaven, when he sees the Prince of the second heaven, he removes the glorious crown from his head and falls prostrate....” and so on.

Higher and more Glorious heavens are honored by the lower heavens. This honor shown by princes is the same as the honor the guardians of the entrances to the various heavens show to the guardians of the higher heavens. “...The guardians of the door of the first palace, when they see the guardians of the door of the second palace, they remove their glorious crowns from their heads and fall prostrate. The guardians of the door of the second palace... “ etc, etc. (3 Enoch18:3)

While most of the later Christian movements adopted the “light switch” theory of “either” a single heavenly reward OR a single torturous hell, I think the earlier Christian model of multiple levels of reward or multiple levels of punishment is much more logical and rational and justifiable.

Again Gerry, I hope your spiritual journey is wonderful and you come to your own understanding and are able to create and adopt your own models as to the nature of existence and what God is doing.

Clear
σεφιφιω

Thank you for your most interesting comments.
I truly enjoyed it.

 

[Samantha Rinne]

The first verse of the Bible.

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. KJV

Interesting line. Lots of information. We could dissect it for eternity and continue to understand more and more. Yet, I want to keep this as simple and easy as possible, so just one question.

What exactly did God create?

He created a simulacrum.

In case you don't have like an English and Philosophy double major, and know what a simulacrum is, here goes. The Truman Show. That's it.

There would be little point to creating an entire universe, if only a small portion of it contained life, and it begs the question of why we were created in the first place. But Genesis lays it out in all gory detail. A flat Earth dome with basically stars painted on the outside, and God is outside the dome.

Think of it like this. Suppose we want to see how lab rats behave in an open-ended setting, where it seems like they aren't watched. A dome is built with its own weather (courtesy of cloud seeding). A spotlight is used for the sun. The dome has all land basically as a large island, and food comes from crops that grow there. Outside the dome, there are researchers furiously writing notes, and assessing rat behavior. Initially, the plan is just to record notes and all rats die (Sheol), but after awhile the researchers all get tired of this, and want a new plan. So they send a rat from outside the cage who has watched all of these fake clouds and fake stars and fake sun into the dome. Predictably, that rat doesn't smell like the others, and seems weird, so they herd it away to the water to drown cuz they don't want whatever disease it has. The researchers use respiratory machines to pump the water out of its lungs and it comes back to life. They then use a projector to show to some of the rats that the one is alive and well. They take the rats that respond well to this out of the experiment to live with the other rat. The other ones are not given medical care.

 

[Aupmanyav]

POST ONE OF

Hi Gerry :

Again, I don’t particularly want to enter into the debate regarding creation, but would like to respond to your specific comment that there are multiple heavens, or multiple levels within the condition and place of “heaven”.

I like your model of multiple levels/places/conditions within heaven. The ancient Judeo-Christians describe the model of multiple heavens as well.

1) There were multiple heavens of varying levels described in ancient Judao-Christian texts.

2Co 12:2-5 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. (3) And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth (4) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

This ancient model of different levels of heavenly reward in early texts was not a “light switch” model where one is either in a highest heaven or sent to a darkest hell, but rather it was more just model with varied heavens of differing levels of glory, “Because on the day of the great judgment. Every weight and every measure and every set of scales will be just as they are in the market. That is to say, each will be weighed in the balance, and each will stand in the market, and each will find out his own measure and in accordance with that measurement each shall receive his own reward.” (2nd Enoch 44:5)

The early literature is full of references to such references of “the 3rd heaven” which is “closed off from this world. And the guards are appointed at the very large gates to the east of the sun, angels of flame, singing victory songs, never silent, rejoicing at the arrival of the righteous. (2nd Enoch 42:4) Enoch speaks of going “up to the highest heaven, [into the highest Jerusalem], into my eternal inheritance.” (2nd Enoch 55:1-2)

It made perfect sense to the Early Judao-christians to have the angel Michael be commanded “Take him up into Paradise, to the third heaven, and leave (him) there until that great and fearful day which I am about to establish for the world.” Life of Adam and Eve (apocalypse) 37:3-6

Another angel tells the Prophet Sedrach : “I was sent to you that I may carry you up into heavens. But the angel, having stretched out his wings, took him and went up into the heavens, and took him up as far as the third heaven, and the flame of the divinity stood there.” (The Apocalypse of Sedrach 2:3-5)

2) The varying numbering systems of multiple heavens (i.e. multiple heavens and/or multiple levels or places within multiple heavens....

While THREE heavens is often spoken of, multiple texts describe higher numbers. Sometimes it is clear that the higher numbers represent levels or places within a specific heaven and at other times the various heavens represent the concept that there are differing places (usually “levels”) for individuals having different characteristics.

At present, I use an economic model as a context for understanding the various heavens. . For example, we might describe individuals as “the rich” and “the poor” in certain contexts. Though we use these terms, the description is not useful to describe specific levels of “rich” and “poor”. We might be more accurate and divide economic divisions as “lower class”, “middle class” and “upper class”. However, even this rough division does not tell us that in the upper class there are multi-millionaires and there are multi-billionaires, just as there are the somewhat poor and then there are the desperately poor. Economists who want to divide the divisions up even more accurately might use “upper middle class” or “lower middle class”, etc.

The same principle of various levels is sometimes seen in the various early textual descriptions of heavenly divisions. My point is simply that there were varying levels of reward in early judeo-christian belief and one can see differing organizations of them based on moral characteristics of their inhabitants and of varying conditions in the various heavens.

For example. The Haggadah tells us that “ Several heavens were created, seven in fact, each to serve a purpose of it own.”. The highest heaven was described as containing “ ...naught but what is good and beautiful: right, justice, and mercy, the storehouses of life, peace, and blessing, the souls of the pious, the souls and spirits of unborn generations...” as well as “ the divine throne, surrounded by the seraphim, [...] and the ministering angels.” (The Haggadah (The alphabet) ch 2)

…, saying to him “Take him up into Paradise, to the third heaven, and leave (him) there until that great and fearful day…”. Life of Adam and Eve (apocalypse) 37:3-6

POST TWO OF TWO FOLLOWS

I refuse to read your posts because of change in font size, color and spacing. Are you a new entrant to internet discussions?

 

[Aupmanyav]

He created a simulacrum.
In case you don't have like an English and Philosophy double major, and know what a simulacrum is, here goes. The Truman Show. That's it.

That is what most (not all) Hindus believe - 'Maya' (illusion), God's play; and warn about it - your perception is not the truth.

 

[Samantha Rinne]

Well besides the obvious Jesus plug.

It's also what the Taoists believe.
5b What's a hologram?-Tao by Matsumoto-Taoism Zen explanation
And the Buddhists.
And some scientists (holographic universe).

In fact, I got the notion by cross-reference of alot of religions.