In the Book of Revelation, God is not the Lamb, and the Lamb is not God.

[Trailblazer]

Jesus is worshipped because He is God and only God is to be worshipped.

Jesus is worshiped because Christians made Jesus into God with false doctrines.
Jesus is not God. Jesus never claimed to be God. Jesus said to worship only God.

Matthew 4:10 Jesus said to him, 'Away from me, Satan! For it is written: "Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

 

[Trailblazer]

Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:55-59‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

Jesus was before Abraham because the soul of Jesus existed in the spiritual world before Abraham existed in this world, not because Jesus was God. Since the spiritual world is without beginning or end, that is why Jesus was the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end.

(96) PRE-EXISTENCE - of Prophets
The Prophets, unlike us, are pre-existent. The soul of Christ existed in the spiritual world before His birth in this world. We cannot imagine what that world is like, so words are inadequate to picture His state of being.

(Shoghi Effendi: High Endeavors, Page: 71)

 

[rational experiences]

When no man or human existed O earth energy mass a burning body in its womb space.

Origins God in science O a planet. All science products of the God planet O one mass.

Basic simple information.

Relativity of earth. Named earth by man human. Named one by man human. Named stone by man human. Named God the creator of its heavens beginning spirits.

God he said had an evil son. Burning spirit.

Said it for self possessed man minds in alien AI status. To read. Read it daily. Read it three times a day in ceremony until the information repossessed your brain.

What he medically knew mind possession conditions. Medical healer advice.

Gases burning in a vacuum only kept cooled by gases in a vacuum.

Womb space cold highest law form holding any form. Never change the status was the teaching against the destroyers of life on earth.

Scientists with a previous man title satanist.

Two forms science minds evolved. Those who knew science was evil and those who claimed they were a superior man being.

The statement. Confession of science caused evils. Updated advice when new life attacks emerged.

Four holy seasons a basic science advice about man's awareness four holy seasons changed. Four holy man advices stated documented.

By swift coming revelations asteroids comets meteors and UFO.

Human began as a human.
Human ended as a human.
A human dies as a human.

The correct human self origin status human.

 

[Deeje]

There’s a lot of Scripture where Jesus is shown to be God the Son, there are not 3 Gods, just One. God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Jesus is worshipped because He is God and only God is to be worshipped.

No, sorry Jesus never accepted worship, but accepted obeisance because it was appropriate to honor God's son.....but he said that all worship should go to God "alone"....he was not talking about himself.(Luke 4:5-8)

“Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, ‘I do not know Him,’ I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:55-59‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

Read it again......"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

Jesus was answering a question about his age not his deity. He was telling those Jews that he was alive before Abraham was born.

God's name does not mean "I AM" and therefore has no connection to John 8.

Exodus 3:13-15 from the Jewish Tanach reads.....

"13 And Moses said to God, "Behold I come to the children of Israel, and I say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they say to me, 'What is His name?' what shall I say to them?" יגוַיֹּ֨אמֶר משֶׁ֜ה אֶל־הָֽאֱלֹהִ֗ים הִנֵּ֨ה אָֽנֹכִ֣י בָא֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ וְאָֽמַרְתִּ֣י לָהֶ֔ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י אֲבֽוֹתֵיכֶ֖ם שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם וְאָֽמְרוּ־לִ֣י מַה־שְּׁמ֔וֹ מָ֥ה אֹמַ֖ר אֲלֵהֶֽם:

14 God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'" ידוַיֹּ֤אמֶר אֱלֹהִים֙ אֶל־משֶׁ֔ה אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה וַיֹּ֗אמֶר כֹּ֤ה תֹאמַר֙ לִבְנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה שְׁלָחַ֥נִי אֲלֵיכֶֽם:

15 And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation. טווַיֹּ֩אמֶר֩ ע֨וֹד אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶל־משֶׁ֗ה כֹּ֣ה תֹאמַר֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ יְהֹוָ֞ה אֱלֹהֵ֣י אֲבֹֽתֵיכֶ֗ם אֱלֹהֵ֨י אַבְרָהָ֜ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִצְחָ֛ק וֵֽאלֹהֵ֥י יַֽעֲקֹ֖ב שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם זֶה־שְּׁמִ֣י לְעֹלָ֔ם וְזֶ֥ה זִכְרִ֖י לְדֹ֥ר דֹּֽר:"

https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9864

 

[firedragon]

Someone like Jesus would be a manefestation of god

Where does Revelations say that?

 

[wellwisher]

God is like the Chairman of the Board, while Jesus is like a CEO or COO in charge of operations. If you work for any large corporation, your highest boss is the CEO and not the Chairman of the Board. The Chairman is his boss.

Jesus is like the CEO in charge of human and earth operations. Only he talks directly to the Chairman. The underlings never deal directly with the Chairman in any official capacity.

Look at it this way. If God could create the universe, what would any human have in common? How could you have an intelligent conversion? It would all be for vanity and bragging rights. What are you going to talk about, the weather or sports scores?

We have no clue about the biggest pictures, and we would waste God's time, with him having to deal with morons, with tiny self serving brains. Jesus is like a liaison, who is in the trenches with his workers. He can translate between these two stations. But to humans, Jesus is so high up, he is still God's chosen one.

If you work for a large corporation, go to the CEO's office and walk in. Depending on how large the company is, this can be very intimidating, since he/she is busy, and what can you say to make your meeting productive for him/her? Now realize he is under someone bigger than him, who can fire him. For most people, a middle level supervisor is your liaison, not the CEO. The office to Jesus, the CEO, is open to those who seek him.

I remember as a young engineer, just out of grad school, working my first job, for a university teaching program at a National Lab in the USA. The Lab employed about 6000 scientists from around the world, technicians and support staff. Part of my job for the university was to solicit research intern projects and create literature files, as part of the university's graduate school program. I tried the conventional approach of working up the chain of command, in this large facility, but I got stopped in the middle of the chain, by an arrogant foot dragging middle manager.

Students would be coming in the fall and I felt under the gun. So. I decided to start again, but this time, at the top. I went to "Mahogany Row" to the Director's office, where I was greeted by his secretary; executive assistant. His secretary liked me and she opened the door; figuratively, to the CEO, for me. It turned out the CEO was a fellow former scientist, and a very nice down to earth guy.

I would visit them each morning, for about two weeks. I would sit with her by her desk and chit chat about life and her kids, until she knew the big guy was free. Then I would sit opposite him, in nice comfortable leather chair, and chew the fat, about the Lab and its history, until one day I built up the courage to ask him a favor for my professional needs. He was very helpful and gave me the keys to the city, allowing me to remove all the middle level management obstacles. Jesus is like that friendly CEO, if you have faith and ask.

The funny part of the story was, as I went down the chain of command, I got to meet everyone one at the top of the food chain. This journey brought me back to the same middle manager who created the original obstacles. When I entered his office, he started to rip me a new one for wasting his time, again. So told him, politely, that if he did not have the time to help, I would go back to Bob; CEO, and ask him to suggest someone else.

His jaw dropped, when realized I had the blessings from the big guy. He then switched to the kiss butt side of his two faces, and started to treat me like his best friend. I took his help, and said thank you, and kept quiet of that event, since I had no desire to be vindictive. Instead, I gave myself the afternoon off, to work by my apartment pool. Sometimes the spirit moves you in strange ways and help comes from unlikely places.

 

[ElishaElijah]

No, sorry Jesus never accepted worship, but accepted obeisance because it was appropriate to honor God's son.....but he said that all worship should go to God "alone"....he was not talking about himself.(Luke 4:5-8)



Read it again......"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

Jesus was answering a question about his age not his deity. He was telling those Jews that he was alive before Abraham was born.

God's name does not mean "I AM" and therefore has no connection to John 8.

Exodus 3:13-15 from the Jewish Tanach reads.....

"13 And Moses said to God, "Behold I come to the children of Israel, and I say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they say to me, 'What is His name?' what shall I say to them?" יגוַיֹּ֨אמֶר משֶׁ֜ה אֶל־הָֽאֱלֹהִ֗ים הִנֵּ֨ה אָֽנֹכִ֣י בָא֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ וְאָֽמַרְתִּ֣י לָהֶ֔ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י אֲבֽוֹתֵיכֶ֖ם שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם וְאָֽמְרוּ־לִ֣י מַה־שְּׁמ֔וֹ מָ֥ה אֹמַ֖ר אֲלֵהֶֽם:

14 God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'" ידוַיֹּ֤אמֶר אֱלֹהִים֙ אֶל־משֶׁ֔ה אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה וַיֹּ֗אמֶר כֹּ֤ה תֹאמַר֙ לִבְנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה שְׁלָחַ֥נִי אֲלֵיכֶֽם:

15 And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation. טווַיֹּ֩אמֶר֩ ע֨וֹד אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶל־משֶׁ֗ה כֹּ֣ה תֹאמַר֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ יְהֹוָ֞ה אֱלֹהֵ֣י אֲבֹֽתֵיכֶ֗ם אֱלֹהֵ֨י אַבְרָהָ֜ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִצְחָ֛ק וֵֽאלֹהֵ֥י יַֽעֲקֹ֖ב שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם זֶה־שְּׁמִ֣י לְעֹלָ֔ם וְזֶ֥ה זִכְרִ֖י לְדֹ֥ר דֹּֽר:"

https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9864

And they were going to stone Him for saying that.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Jesus is worshiped because Christians made Jesus into God with false doctrines.
Jesus is not God. Jesus never claimed to be God. Jesus said to worship only God.

Matthew 4:10 Jesus said to him, 'Away from me, Satan! For it is written: "Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Was Jesus good? Yes. Worship God only, He received worship by those he healed, disciples, women, many times.

 

[Redemptionsong]

The name above all names is the name of the one true God, Yahweh. Jesus carries that name as he said, " I have come in the name of my Father". To come in the name of the Father, Yahweh, is to represent Yahweh.
Yahweh was speaking for Jesus when He said every knee will bow to me.

Even if Yahweh were speaking FOR Jesus, he is still speaking AS GOD!

If Jesus was just a representative of God, and not his true countenance, the Word of God, then we must treat Jesus Christ as wholly man, and not worthy of our worship or service.

If we think about Jesus Christ AS HE IS NOW then we are left with three options as to how to treat him:
1. As God [the full measure of the Holy Spirit]
2. As a resurrected man [spiritual body, soul, and limited measure of the Holy Spirit]
3. As both God and resurrected man [spiritual body, soul, and full measure of the Holy Spirit]

It seems to me that JWs (and those that deny the deity of Jesus Christ) opt for no.2 of these options. The problem, then, is that Jesus Christ is no longer the Saviour, for only God can save [Isaiah 43:11].

Numbers 1 and 3 can be conflated, because they mean the same thing at the present time. If we pray to the Father in the name of Jesus Christ, we pray to God in the approved manner.

 

[filthyrottendirty]

Do you believe that Jesus is still a man and that as a man He has a God?
Are you doing this as a believer in Jesus or from outside of belief in Jesus?

Jesus is not a man anymore. I believe in Jesus.

 

[LightofTruth]

Even if Yahweh were speaking FOR Jesus, he is still speaking AS GOD!

If Jesus was just a representative of God, and not his true countenance, the Word of God, then we must treat Jesus Christ as wholly man, and not worthy of our worship or service.

If we think about Jesus Christ AS HE IS NOW then we are left with three options as to how to treat him:
1. As God [the full measure of the Holy Spirit]
2. As a resurrected man [spiritual body, soul, and limited measure of the Holy Spirit]
3. As both God and resurrected man [spiritual body, soul, and full measure of the Holy Spirit]

It seems to me that JWs (and those that deny the deity of Jesus Christ) opt for no.2 of these options. The problem, then, is that Jesus Christ is no longer the Saviour, for only God can save [Isaiah 43:11].

Numbers 1 and 3 can be conflated, because they mean the same thing at the present time. If we pray to the Father in the name of Jesus Christ, we pray to God in the approved manner.

My understanding differs from JW's.

Firstly, I believe the Father has a body. And that no man has seen His face at any time.
And secondly, I do not believe Jesus is Michael the archangel.

I believe Jesus came into existence by being born of a woman. And he was of the same nature as all the rest of humanity. Mortal man. Under death's dominion.

I believe Michael the archangel represented God in the O.T.. And it was he who appeared to man whenever anyone is said to have seen God, or that God appeared.

Jesus has taken on the same role as Michael, except Jesus has been exalted above all of God's angels in heaven.

As a resurrected man, Jesus no longer is under death's dominion and his nature is now immortal. He will never die again. He is a partaker of the divine nature. Just as those who will be raised from the dead to eternal life.

God has made Jesus Lord of all. And we worship him because he has secured our salvation and is the only one worthy to have done so.

 

[LightofTruth]

Jesus is worshiped because Christians made Jesus into God with false doctrines.
Jesus is not God. Jesus never claimed to be God. Jesus said to worship only God.

Matthew 4:10 Jesus said to him, 'Away from me, Satan! For it is written: "Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

The Satan who was a tempter to Jesus questioned whether Jesus was the son of God. He did not believe Jesus had come in God's name with all authority from God. If he had, he would have worshipped God through Jesus as having represented God.

Jesus was of the same nature as the rest of man. And Paul says that "in my flesh dwelleth no good thing". The flesh that Jesus had was sinful flesh and therefore his nature was not divine or immortal. he had to overcome the flesh with its desires. Which he did.

 

[Redemptionsong]

God has made Jesus Lord of all. And we worship him because he has secured our salvation and is the only one worthy to have done so.

But, according to the first commandment, you should not be worshipping, or giving yourself in service, to any other than God.

'Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.' [Matthew 4:10]

 

[LightofTruth]

But, according to the first commandment, you should not be worshipping, or giving yourself in service, to any other than God.

'Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.' [Matthew 4:10]

Satan had said, "All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me."

Jesus replied, "Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve."

Jesus refused to fall down and give worship to Satan because Jesus worships the Lord God and Him only does he serve. Jesus would have broken the commandment if he had worshiped Satan.

The Scripture says we are to honor the Son as the Father. And worship to God through Jesus is accepted. In fact, Jesus is the only way to the Father.

 

[Trailblazer]

The Scripture says we are to honor the Son as the Father. And worship to God though Jesus is accepted. In fact, Jesus is the only way to the Father.

Yes, that's true. Jesus was the only way to the Father when that scripture was written, and people were supposed to go through Jesus in order to know God since Jesus was the mediator between God and man (1 Timothy 2:5).

I do not believe that humans can ever know or relate to God directly. I believe it is acceptable to pray directly to God but it is also acceptable for Christians to worship God through Jesus.

 

[Deeje]

And they were going to stone Him for saying that.

Of course....they were trying to pin a charge of blasphemy on him in order to have him put to death...it was they who accused him of claiming to be God.....his response was that he only ever claimed to be God’s son.

 

[LightofTruth]

Of course....they were trying to pin a charge of blasphemy on him in order to have him put to death...it was they who accused him of claiming to be God.....his response was that he only ever claimed to be God’s son.

The Pharisees understood nothing Jesus said. The only thing they seem to have perceived was that Jesus was speaking against them in parables.

 

[LightofTruth]

Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Joh 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

Isn't that interesting!

Jesus was equal with God!

Then Jesus explains how he was equal with God. Read the underlined words.

Joh 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
Joh 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
Joh 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

Spoiler: Spoiler

The way in which Jesus was equal with God was by the Father working through Jesus. Jesus was seeing the Father do the works through the son. And that is how Jesus was equal with God.

 

[Trailblazer]

Of course....they were trying to pin a charge of blasphemy on him in order to have him put to death...it was they who accused him of claiming to be God.....his response was that he only ever claimed to be God’s son.

That's right...

"The Gospel of John relates one incident in which the Jews accused Jesus of “making himself equal to God” and another incident in which they said to him, “you, though only a human being, are making yourself God” (Jn 5.18; 10.33). (All scripture quotations are from the NRSV.) Since Christians have been taught that Jesus is God, they have been taught that these Jews were correct in making these accusations. But in each instance, Jesus’ immediate response represents a denial of those allegations (Jn 5.19-46; 10.34-38). In the second incident, did they charge Jesus with making himself “God,” as has been traditionally translated, or “a god”? In the Greek text of Jn 10.33, the word for “God,” theos, does not have the article, thus making it “a god.” But English Bibles don’t translate it that way. Versions with “God’s Son” include the NIV, NRSV, NEB, and versions with “the Son of God” include KJV, NASB, ESV."

Did the Jews Accuse Jesus of Claiming to Be “God” or “a God”?

 

[LightofTruth]

Of course....they were trying to pin a charge of blasphemy on him in order to have him put to death...it was they who accused him of claiming to be God.....his response was that he only ever claimed to be God’s son.

Here's a quote from the JW's site:

"But who said that Jesus was making himself equal to God? Not Jesus. He defended himself against this false charge in the very next verse (Joh 5:19): “To this accusation Jesus replied: . . . ‘the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees the Father doing.’”—JB."

By this, Jesus showed the Jews that he was not equal to God and therefore could not act on his own initiative."

I don't think Jesus was showing that he was not equal with God but that he was equal with Him.

When Jesus says "he can do only what he sees the Father doing." he means that the Father is doing the works, not the son only. If the father is doing the works through the son then that makes the son equal with God. Does it not?