"incarnation of God" according to allah?

[Shishya]

I want to know if your allah has got anything to say about this topic. Because this is definitely an extremely important query that has to be dealt with.

If the quran is 100% word of God revealed as a book, intended for all of humanity for all time as the only means of spiritual salvation.

Then I expect God to deal with this subject in detail.

So, my question to you muslims is; are there verses in the quran where your allah explains whether or whether not he incarnates, and if so, why he does or does not in detail.

Mind you, I dont want to hear zakir naik type of nonsense like "allah neither begets nor was begotten" and then going on to say "what for incarnation, there is no need to, he reveals through prophets".

I want to see clear and concise verses on this topic that elaborately explain, by your allah on whether he incarnates and if so or if not so, why.

If you are able to do so, by providing me with such verses, if they are contained within your "holy" quran.

I will burn the Vedas. Renounce being a Hindu. Accept islam by declaring on this very thread the shahada.

And like I said, I don't want to hear nonsense like "how can allah incarnate? if allah incarnates that means people get to see him and then they will know him completely".

 

[Cordoba]

Welcome to the forum

The Muslim belief is based on that God (Allah) is Eternal.

He is The First, without begining, and He is The Last, without an end

He is The Eternal Creator, and therefore does not need to "incarnate"

In describing Himself, Allah says in the Qur'an:

(There is to Him no equivalent, and He is the Hearing, the Seeing) (42:11)

Also think of it logically: Why would a Mighty Eternal Creator need to incarnate in the first place?

 

[K.Venugopal]

Dear Shishya, Islam does not have the concept of Allah incarnating in human form. So I think your foisting upon them the question is meaningless. Muslims believe that Allah created everything, is in control of everything and will bring humans to judgement at the end and reward or punish them on the basis of the life they lived. Why do you say statements like "Allah neither begets nor was begotten" is nonsense? Furthermore, your declaration that you will burn the Vedas is idiotic. You have no right to think about burning holy books, however you may feel.

 

[K.Venugopal]

Dear Cordoba, On the face of it, it would appear that Shishya's talking about incarnation of Allah is meaningless. However, I think it is believed by many Muslims that they will see Allah on judgement day (Quran 75:23). If this is true, then it will amount to an incarnation of Allah and Shishya would have a relevant point. Please clarify.

 

[Cordoba]

The rules of the Hereafter are different, as there it is an eternal life

 

[Shishya]

^ This question is intended only at muslims.

But in case I havent made myself clearer. I'm responding to this post.

Dear Shishya, Islam does not have the concept of Allah incarnating in human form.

Good observation.

So I think your foisting upon them the question is meaningless.

Even though a system of beliefs may not have a certain belief. It has to have a position on why it does not.

I expect a religion that forcefully and arrogantly declares itself to be the only one from God as intended to be accepted by everyone without any exceptions, to fulfill spirituality completely. And that includes being able to completely answer all questions.

I explained myself already. So with all due respect, if you can't seem to grasp what my question is by answering accordingly. Then your words are redundant.

Muslims believe that Allah created everything, is in control of everything and will bring humans to judgement at the end and reward or punish them on the basis of the life they lived.

Well spotted.

Again this is another example of how a response is made without directly answering my question.

In case you thought what you are saying here "reasons" why allah doesnt incarnate. It does not.

And just so you know some shias believer their imams to be incarnations of allah.

Whatever theological disputes people might have then would be based upon their own personal opinions.

Speaking of which, if believers of a certain text as being a relevation of divinity cannot all interpret it in agreement. That means this text is either flawed or some of those who read it are wrong atleast somehow or nobody reading it yet has gotten it all right.

In other words, if there is no consensus to the proper interpretation of a scripture, then surely either those interpreting are imperfect or the scripture itself is imperfect.

Why do you say statements like "Allah neither begets nor was begotten" is nonsense?

I didnt say that that statement was nonsensical.

Pardon me, if I was not clear.

What I mean is;

I don't want to hear any verses that are irrelevant to directly answering my question. With muslims saying things that offer no explanation directly to the question. That would be your own personal drivel and its mot even a commentary on the verse you are quoting, not a point being expounded upon. And that would be nonsensical.

And that is something zakir naik often does. That is why I used him as an example along with that verse. And also because it may be used by muslims as an "explanation" when it really isnt.

My question is an open challenge to islam and muslims.

If you can answer my question. Then I will accept the quran as the 100% word of God.

 

[TashaN]

Even though a system of beliefs may not have a certain belief. It has to have a position on why it does not.

Hey, calm down. First of all, welcome to the forums.

Secondly, i would like to answer all your questions, but i need to know first, why do you believe that God has to state why he do something but he doesn't do another? Heck, even a mere a human being sometimes would shrug off when you try to question why he chose to do something but not another.

That's why i believe that your request is unrealistic. When you say "Even though a system of beliefs may not have a certain belief. It has to have a position on why it does not", a religion would have to explain why it doesn't accept the teachings of hundreds or thousands of beliefs. Why should i, as a Muslim, have to explain why millions of people are wrong and i'm right?

I just have to state what i believe in and what is my religion, and what God says about himself and the worlds. God might justify certain things but he is not obliged to refute every single belief system.

Contrary to what you think of him, God didn't send Mohammed to force everybody to enter to Islam, he is just a messenger and a warning to the worlds.

[13] If We had so willed, We could certainly have brought every soul its true guidance: but the Word from Me will come true, "I will fill Hell with Jinns and men all together." (Quran 32:13)

Allah can make the entire world Muslims in a second, but that wasn't the purpose of our creation. We were made to worship him, but freely, by our own choice.

My question is an open challenge to islam and muslims.

If you can answer my question. Then I will accept the quran as the 100% word of God.

You keep repeating that you will convert to Islam on the spot. There is no victory in making a non-Muslim become a Muslim in this way. If you want to become a Muslim, you should search for the truth by yourself, and if you don't want to become a Muslim and you just want to challenge, then maybe that's not the place for such a thing.

Finally, if you have some questions which you want an answer to, don't hesitate to ask, but leave aside your challenging tone and try to form your questions in a more friendly way.

 

[Sahar]

Hey, calm down.

LOL, he is full of enthusiasm!!

 

[islam means peace]

Shishya , can you please explain for people like me (i donot have very good english) what do you mean by " incarnate "

 

[Madhuri]

Tashan, I am curious. In the quote you provided, Allah says that He will fill hell. Putting people in hell is his doing, the punishment he allows. But why does He WILL for people to suffer so horribly, for so long, when he could simply make His existence obvious?

I am always confused about the idea that God would seek to punish those who simply do not believe in His existance. It is not as though these people believe in Him but hate or defy Him. If anybody does not belive in Allah it is because they do not feel they have the necessary knowledge or understanding to be convinced of His existence. People believe in what seems like an obvious reality to them. Why is Allah opposed to enlightening them without torture? Many simple solutions could be found without the need for Hell and none of those solutions would involve eliminating free will. A person can know that God exists and still have a choice as whether or not to submit/follow/worship that God.

I just don't get it.

 

[.lava]

Shishya , can you please explain for people like me (i donot have very good english) what do you mean by " incarnate "

yes, i would like to hear definition of incarnation too. a person can submit his free will to God but that would not make that person God itself. matter of fact, that kind of thinking would leave person out of Islam. we are not little creators, we are creatures no matter what level we are; from the worst one to Prophets -all equal for that matter. when someone submits his free will, he becomes proxy of God which is called Hilafe. that would be the highest level and takes a life time and very strong devotion to reach that point. in other words, you can't submit your free will to God simply by saying you are submitting your free will

.

 

[Madhuri]

I am also curious, does the Quran say that Allah cannot take physical form?
Or that He simply chooses not to?

 

[Madhuri]

Incarnate is to take form.
In Hinduism, God is believed to incarnate many times. The term commonly used is Avatar. Some Avatars include Rama, Shiva, Krishna, Buddha etc.

 

[islam means peace]

Tashan, I am curious. In the quote you provided, Allah says that He will fill hell. Putting people in hell is his doing, the punishment he allows. But why does He WILL for people to suffer so horribly, for so long, when he could simply make His existence obvious?

I am always confused about the idea that God would seek to punish those who simply do not believe in His existance. It is not as though these people believe in Him but hate or defy Him. If anybody does not belive in Allah it is because they do not feel they have the necessary knowledge or understanding to be convinced of His existence. People believe in what seems like an obvious reality to them. Why is Allah opposed to enlightening them without torture? Many simple solutions could be found without the need for Hell and none of those solutions would involve eliminating free will. A person can know that God exists and still have a choice as whether or not to submit/follow/worship that God.

I just don't get it.

Well, Madhuri , i donot agree with you that people donot believe in Allah. Every one believe (at least their heart if not by saying) that there is only one GOD and not body equal to him.

Qurans says in Surah 39 verse

38. If indeed thou ask them who it is that created the heavens and the earth, they would be sure to say, "Allah". Say: "See ye then? the thingsthat ye invoke besides Allah,- can they, if Allah wills some Penalty for me,remove His Penalty?- Or if He wills some Grace for me, can they keep backhis Grace?" Say: "Sufficient is Allah for me! In Him trust those who puttheir trust."

Every one believes in Allah , but still they do idol worship. Ask a person who do idol worhip did this statue created this world or did they give you food , and they know they had created it my thier own hands , they will surely reply that no , they cannot make it and only Allah had made it , so ask them where you are going?


About your second question

I am also curious, does the Quran say that Allah cannot take physical form?

Quran says in Surah Akhlas , Ayat

4. And there is none like unto Him.

If Allah wants he can take physical form but Allah is pure from these things.

 

[Madhuri]

Well, Madhuri , i donot agree with you that people donot believe in Allah. Every one believe (at least their heart if not by saying) that there is only one GOD and not body equal to him.

Qurans says in Surah 39 verse

38. If indeed thou ask them who it is that created the heavens and the earth, they would be sure to say, "Allah". Say: "See ye then? the thingsthat ye invoke besides Allah,- can they, if Allah wills some Penalty for me,remove His Penalty?- Or if He wills some Grace for me, can they keep backhis Grace?" Say: "Sufficient is Allah for me! In Him trust those who puttheir trust."

Every one believes in Allah , but still they do idol worship. Ask a person who do idol worhip did this statue created this world or did they give you food , and they know they had created it my thier own hands , they will surely reply that no , they cannot make it and only Allah had made it , so ask them where you are going?

I disagree, many people do not believe in one God or even any God. There are many you can ask that will immediately respond with an answer that does not include 'I believe in Allah'. Go ahead, ask an atheist on this site. They will not say 'Allah' they will say 'nobody'.

I am someone you would consider an idol worshiper. If someone asked me if I believe the statue create the world I would say that the question had no relevence to my beliefs and that the question arises from a complete lack of understanding of my religion.

Also, atheists generally are not idol worshipers so I am not sure why you immediately brought up idolatry.

About your second question


Quran says in Surah Akhlas , Ayat

4. And there is none like unto Him.

If Allah wants he can take physical form but Allah is pure from these things.

This doesn't make sense to me. What does being 'pure of these things' mean and how does is stop Allah from appearing in form to humans?

As someone who believes in Avatars (incarnations), the fact none are like God, or that God is unlike to anyone has no bearing on whether he does or does not choose to appear in form. So you will have to explain more to me, because your explanation makes no sense to me.

(I do thank you for responding and trying to answer my questions)

 

[K.Venugopal]

The rules of the Hereafter are different, as there it is an eternal life

For heaven or hell to be of relevance for humans, the humans need to in some way continue to be themselves in heaven or hell. Otherwise he or she who is enjoying or suffering would not be the same person who lived on earth and deserved the judgement. The rules of heaven/hell may be different but not to the extent that a person is not able to relate the rules of earth and heaven/hell. If he is unable to do so, then who is being rewarded or punished? The Quran clearly tells us the consequences of following/not following Allah's instructions. Therefore certainly a portion of us which makes us aware of ourselves as we were on earth would have to be present in heaven/hell. If we are able to see Allah in heaven, then who has seen Allah but we? Thus, there is no denying the fact that Allah is amenable to incarnate (make Himself seen) at least in heaven. Your contention that the laws of the “hereafter” are different from the laws of “here” should not be an attempt to invalidate logic when considering matters of the “hereafter”.

Also, it cannot be an eternal life in heaven. That which is eternal does not have a beginning or end. The "hereafter" begins only after the "here". So another word has to be coined for that which, though has a beginning, does not have an end!

 

[islam means peace]

Well , Madhuri ,

Yes, it might be possible what you talk about atheist is right, that they donot believe in GOD , I mean by saying that every body believes in One GOD is that deep in their heart or naturally or spirit (I donot know the right work if you know the work 'ROOH' Its arabic word) every body believe in oneness of GOD.

For example , let talk about phiroh/phiron at the time of Prophet Moosa Peace be upon him , at death time, he said that he believes in Allah but Allah refuses his ascuse becasue a person must have to accept the Oneness of Allah in his life.
(i am unable to quote the exacet verse becuase i only know the meaning in my own language and unable to find the exact verse in english , might besome one else give you the exact verse)

Now , if you study , why did phiroh say he belives at death time because deep in the heart he know that Prophet Moosa Peace be upon him was right and he was just refusing because of some moral benefits.

I still believe that every body , irrespective of any religion in his heart know that there is only and only one GOD Allah , (Its your right whether you agree or not , I had posted my point of view)

As someone who believes in Avatars (incarnations), the fact none are like God, or that God is unlike to anyone has no bearing on whether he does or does not choose to appear in form. So you will have to explain more to me, because your explanation makes no sense to me.

Well , i also had difficulty to say the exact words what i want to say due to non-english person , What is mean here is Allah is pure for taking human form or you can say Allah does not want to do this or its not teh characterstics of ALLAH to take human form , and why do do this , There is no need to do that , Instead Allah has send his messnager who are human being to spread his message to whole of humanity.

Actually , what i mean to say is we donot have or we cannot give any attribute belong to human or creation to Almighty Allah ,

So , some one might ask whether Allah eats or not , whether he sleeps or not etc to answers these Allah has said in the Holy Quaran

"Allah! There is no god but He - the Living, The Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him Nor Sleep. His are all things In the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede In His presence except As he permitteth? He knoweth What (appeareth to His creatures As) Before or After or Behind them. Nor shall they compass Aught of his knowledge Except as He willeth. His throne doth extend Over the heavens And on earth, and He feeleth No fatigue in guarding And preserving them, For He is the Most High. The Supreme (in glory)." [Surah al-Baqarah 2: 255]

 

[SLAMH]

Then I expect God to deal with this subject in detail.

So, my question to you muslims is; are there verses in the quran where your allah explains whether or whether not he incarnates, and if so, why he does or does not in detail.

Mind you, I dont want to hear zakir naik type of nonsense like "allah neither begets nor was begotten" and then going on to say "what for incarnation, there is no need to, he reveals through prophets".

I want to see clear and concise verses on this topic that elaborately explain, by your allah on whether he incarnates and if so or if not so, why.

Mr.Shishya

As a Muslims, I don't think that we are allowed to think about such a matter. The only thing that I know that we will see God in the day of judgement. Sometimes, I have some irrational queries about my religion just like you. I hardly think about it, lately I discover that all what I have been thinking about has a little to do with the meaning of Islam and the means of spiritual salvation. Honestly,I don't see how your question relates to the significance of Islam and I don't know how knowing whether God incarnate or not would make you accept Islam as the true path to survival.

I will give you an example, assume that you are sick and somebody suggest you to see a doctor.

would you rather care how that doctor looks like, or would you rather concern how the doctor will treat you and what therapy he is going to provide?

You may find my answer irrelevance to your question, but please put it in mind and consider it.

 

[Shishya]

Again I expect you to quote me verses that I am asking for. If you cannot. Then your islam is not "perfect". As it is not from God.

I dont want to hear rhetorical nonsense.

Also think of it logically: Why would a Mighty Eternal Creator need to incarnate in the first place?

No its not "logical".

Your logic has to follow all the way through. Not stop, when you want it to.

Now back at you.

"Why would a Mighty Eternal Creator need to have revelation in the first place?"

An incarnation is very a direct perception.

An incarnation of God may lead to a revelation of Himself.

For example.

The Hindu Mahabharata is the history of an incarnation of God. The Bhagavad Gita is a revelation. It is Krishna who reveals it.

This forms the foundation of the spritual structure of Hinduism/Sanatana Dharma.

That form, the incarnation, is a form for those who lack the ability to realize the Transcendent and having a need to keep focus by fixating their mind upon.

That form is also most pleasing to the eye and attracts people to worship.

The human mind expresses an idea through images, words and numbers. Each becoming more abstract and difficult to memorize images > words > numbers.

Basic neurology.

An All-Knowing/Omniscient God should have been aware of that.

And especially yours since he keeps repeating "it is we who have created man and that which he knew not" numerous times in an intimidating manner.

This the God of the Hindus acknowledges because He created them as such. And He does not insult them as idolators nor does He discriminate His own creations as "unbelievers". He recognizes their actions, whatever they do, their struggles in trying to attain Him. When they fail to properly realize Him. He does not punish them. He sympathizes with them. They are the way they are because He created them as such.

Surely a "most merciful" and "most compassionate" God won't condemn his petty creations who fail to recognize Him.

Your allah condemns humans who worship idols into an eternal hellfire.

Man first learned to draw before he was able to put his thoughts into words.

The Hindu was struggling to find God from day one.

The Hindu God understands that he is a mere mortal. Sometimes caught up in his own delusion. But his soul always still searching for something, struggling to properly attain the understanding of Divinity.

So his evolution God witnesses. And at certain stages incarnates Himself to help him in his path of enlightenment and at the same time Preserving Justice/Dharma because His Law is Foremost. Thus Vishnu incarnates Himself.

Allah postpones his idea of justice to a scheduled time. Through "resurrection" and then "judgement".

Hindu God doesnt do that. There is a constant evolution in the universe. And Vishnu maintains Dharma.

So here I'm just giving you as an example of the understanding on the Hindu POV on this subject. Transcendant Impersonal God(Formless) - Immanent Personal God (Incarnation).

Because it is the Form assumed. It is thus a Form that is directly the Being of God that can be percieved directly through a specific sense.

You cannot argue that directly percieving the being of God means completely knowing God.

One states that he acknowledges the Existence of God, that means he acknowledges that God is a Being who is Real.

Does that mean he "knows" God completely? No!

You cannot argue that "incarnation means knowing God completely" because another name of Krishna is the Unknowable.

You arguing here with me that "incarnation means knowing God completely" is more illogical that reading the quran also means "knowing God completely".

This is a very important topic that I would expect God to deal with. Surely if there is a scripture that is from God, it has to deal with this subject in-depth - explaining its case on whatever its stance is.

 

[Shishya]

Quran says in Surah Akhlas , Ayat

4. And there is none like unto Him.

If Allah wants he can take physical form but Allah is pure from these things.

What did I say? Didnt I say I dont want to hear nonsense?

Your mind creates its own blockage and then calls another man blind.

God is Stainless, Free from the causes and defects of material nature but Alone is the Sole Cause of it.

God is the Sole Benefactor and has Absolute Dominion over All that Be yet none has any effect upon Him.

Now you can choose not to believe in God incarnating.

But you should not "fashion" God with your own words. Now you are making God what YOU want Him to be.

Verses by allah. If not, Im not interested.