Incarnation question.

[chinu]

Baha'u'llah was the latest of many God-sent Divine Messengers Who came to renew religion and provide humanity with new teachings (we still know of over a dozen of these Messengers).

He was as well a servant of God, but definitely not God Himself! As I already pointed out, the Baha'i view is that God does not incarnate Himself.

Peace,

Bruce

As far as I know, God's messenger never behave, or live their life like a God/God-man/God-in-man, they always behave and spend their life like Servant of God. The reason they do so, because the way towards God requires a lot of humbleness and meekness towards God which is necessary to overcome ego, ego which is said to be the greatest barrier between Soul and God.

Thus, like.. some parents who become role model in front of their children to teach them good things, or habits, or manners. Similarly, such messengers also become role model in front of their people in order to teach them. If such messengers will start behaving, or start spending their lives like God-man, than they can never teach other people to be humble and meek towards God.

Now, what do you say ?

 

[psychoslice]

I feel that god incarnates within us all, that is when we realize from deep within the we are not just the mind body organism but we are the divine spark of god, call it the Christ consciousness, Buddha Consciousness, or whatever, when this consciousness is given birth we can say that we are the incarnation of god.

 

[chinu]

I feel that god incarnates within us all, that is when we realize from deep within the we are not just the mind body organism but we are the divine spark of god, call it the Christ consciousness, Buddha Consciousness, or whatever, when this consciousness is given birth we can say that we are the incarnation of god.

Of course, one can realize from deep within the we are not just the mind body organism but we are the divine spark of God, and of course this realization is very rare among the people on this earth, But this realization is not the direct experience with this spark.

Like.. by knowing what is butter, one cannot know the taste of "butter", because knowing "butter" is not the taste of "butter". Similarly.. by knowing about that Spark one cannot know the taste of that "Spark", because knowing that "Spark" is not the taste of that "Spark".

Indeed, after getting the direct experience with this spark, one is worthy of saying that we all are "Un-experienced Incarnation of God", just realization is not enough to say.

 

[apophenia]

I can say, without giggling hysterically, that Ymir, the Golden Falcon, is a conscious incarnation of the Infinite.

Fortunately for all of us, He doesn't really care whether or not you recognise Him. Only confused 'individualisated' Creatures care about that. Put another way, caring about that is the very activity which keeps the Individual Creatures in The Dark. Ymir still steps into The Dark momentarily, but Being Beyond the Light, that makes No Difference.

AFAIK.

 

[chinu]

I can say, without giggling hysterically, that Ymir, the Golden Falcon, is a conscious incarnation of the Infinite.

Fortunately for all of us, He doesn't really care whether or not you recognise Him. Only confused 'individualisated' Creatures care about that. Put another way, caring about that is the very activity which keeps the Individual Creatures in The Dark. Ymir still steps into The Dark momentarily, but Being Beyond the Light, that makes No Difference.

AFAIK.

Yes, really,
AFAIK
Really !

 

[psychoslice]

Of course, one can realize from deep within the we are not just the mind body organism but we are the divine spark of God, and of course this realization is very rare among the people on this earth, But this realization is not the direct experience with this spark.

Like.. by knowing what is butter, one cannot know the taste of "butter", because knowing "butter" is not the taste of "butter". Similarly.. by knowing about that Spark one cannot know the taste of that "Spark", because knowing that "Spark" is not the taste of that "Spark".

Indeed, after getting the direct experience with this spark, one is worthy of saying that we all are "Un-experienced Incarnation of God", just realization is not enough to say.

Yes but we are the spark, knowing it or not, realization is just simply knowing that you are, anything else is of the mind, telling you it ain't so, and this is why so many are searching and are told by the ignorant that they are not the spark, hence all the religions of the world.

 

[apophenia]

Well spotted Chinu.
Here is a song I wrote in 1974 ... (country and eastern music)...


We're absolutely equal,
But we're relatively different,

I'm absolutely careless,
and I'm relatively sad.

It takes one to know one,
It takes two to see the difference,

I'm Indifferent Absolutely
And I'm relatively glad.

 

[chinu]

Yes but we are the spark, knowing it or not, realization is just simply knowing that you are, anything else is of the mind, telling you it ain't so, and this is why so many are searching and are told by the ignorant that they are not the spark, hence all the religions of the world.

Actually, all I want to say is that there's a very big difference between, "Realizing/Knowing that we are the Spark" and "Oneness with this Spark".

 

[psychoslice]

Actually, all I want to say is that there's a very big difference between, "Realizing/Knowing that we are the Spark" and "Oneness with this Spark".

Yes that's true, one could spend all their life saying they are the Christ or spark, or whatever and not have a clue to what it really means, not through the mind but from deep within.

 

[chinu]

Well spotted Chinu.
Here is a song I wrote in 1974 ... (country and eastern music)...


We're absolutely equal,
But we're relatively different,

I'm absolutely careless,
and I'm relatively sad.

It takes one to know one,
It takes two to see the difference,

I'm Indifferent Absolutely
And I'm relatively glad.

So, you are poet too ?

 

[Whiterain]

God is sort of like Galactus, I guess.

 

[chinu]

God is sort of like Galactus, I guess.

You mean, galactic ?

 

[yokomodoful]

I don't think God has ever incarnated in totally. An incarnation would mean a limiting aspect, and since my view of God is that God is limitless, it is a contradiction that God would incarnate.

I believe, however, that God has portions of Himself here, there, and everywhere. Perhaps these have been mistaken for God.

To say that God could not be incarnate and remain limitless is a statement that puts a limit on what God can do. We are used to this world that is finite. If God is infinite, that means he can be fully present in Jesus and also fully present in the Father and in the Holy Spirit. If Jesus seemed to be limited that is because he chose to be for our sake because he is also fully human. However, his infinite nature was revealed throughout the gospel.

 

[BruceDLimber]

Now, what do you say ?

From the Baha'i scriptures:

{196}Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: "I am God!" He verily speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His name and His attributes, are made manifest in the world. Thus, He hath revealed: "Those shafts were God's, not Thine!" And also He saith: "In truth, they who plighted fealty unto thee, really plighted that fealty unto God." And were any of them to voice the utterance: "I am the Messenger of God," He also speaketh the truth, the indubitable truth... For they are all but one person, one soul, one spirit, one being, one revelation. They are all the manifestation of the "Beginning" and the "End," the "First" and the "Last," the "Seen" and "Hidden" - all of which pertain to Him Who is the innermost Spirit of Spirits and eternal Essence of Essences. And were they to say: "We are the servants of God," this also is a manifest and indisputable fact. For they have been made manifest in the uttermost state of servitude, a servitude the like of which no man can possibly attain. Thus in moments in which these Essences of being were deeply immersed beneath the oceans of ancient and everlasting holiness, or when they soared to the loftiest summits of divine mysteries, they claimed their utterance to be the Voice of divinity, the Call of God Himself. Were the eye of discernment to be opened, it would recognize that in this very state, they have considered themselves utterly effaced and non-existent in the face of Him Who is the All-Pervading, the Incorruptible. Methinks, they have regarded themselves as utter nothingness, and deemed their mention in that Court an act of blasphemy. For the slightest whispering of self, within such a Court, is an evidence of self-assertion and independent existence. In the eyes of them that have attained unto that Court, such a suggestion is itself a grievous transgression. How much more grievous would it be, were aught else to be mentioned in that Presence, were man's heart, his tongue, his mind, or his soul, to be busied with anyone but the Well-Beloved, were his eyes to behold any countenance other than His beauty, were his ear to be inclined to any melody but His voice, and were his feet to tread any way but His way.

—(The Book of Certitude, pages 152-154, 176-180)
Indeed, Baha'u'llah Himself says:
“When I contemplate, O my God, the relationship that bindeth me to Thee, I am moved to proclaim to all created things ‘verily I am God!’; and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!”
—Baha'u'llah, p. 26

Peace,

Bruce

 

[chinu]

From the Baha'i scriptures:

{196}Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: "I am God!" He verily speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His name and His attributes, are made manifest in the world. Thus, He hath revealed: "Those shafts were God's, not Thine!" And also He saith: "In truth, they who plighted fealty unto thee, really plighted that fealty unto God." And were any of them to voice the utterance: "I am the Messenger of God," He also speaketh the truth, the indubitable truth... For they are all but one person, one soul, one spirit, one being, one revelation. They are all the manifestation of the "Beginning" and the "End," the "First" and the "Last," the "Seen" and "Hidden" - all of which pertain to Him Who is the innermost Spirit of Spirits and eternal Essence of Essences. And were they to say: "We are the servants of God," this also is a manifest and indisputable fact. For they have been made manifest in the uttermost state of servitude, a servitude the like of which no man can possibly attain. Thus in moments in which these Essences of being were deeply immersed beneath the oceans of ancient and everlasting holiness, or when they soared to the loftiest summits of divine mysteries, they claimed their utterance to be the Voice of divinity, the Call of God Himself. Were the eye of discernment to be opened, it would recognize that in this very state, they have considered themselves utterly effaced and non-existent in the face of Him Who is the All-Pervading, the Incorruptible. Methinks, they have regarded themselves as utter nothingness, and deemed their mention in that Court an act of blasphemy. For the slightest whispering of self, within such a Court, is an evidence of self-assertion and independent existence. In the eyes of them that have attained unto that Court, such a suggestion is itself a grievous transgression. How much more grievous would it be, were aught else to be mentioned in that Presence, were man's heart, his tongue, his mind, or his soul, to be busied with anyone but the Well-Beloved, were his eyes to behold any countenance other than His beauty, were his ear to be inclined to any melody but His voice, and were his feet to tread any way but His way.

—(The Book of Certitude, pages 152-154, 176-180)
Indeed, Baha'u'llah Himself says:
“When I contemplate, O my God, the relationship that bindeth me to Thee, I am moved to proclaim to all created things ‘verily I am God!’; and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!”
—Baha'u'llah, p. 26

Peace,

Bruce

Sorry! I can't make out, what message is Baha'u'llah trying to give through all this.

Finally, what's your conclusion, Bruce ?

 

[BruceDLimber]

Sorry! I can't make out, what message is Baha'u'llah trying to give through all this.

Finally, what's your conclusion, Bruce ?

A Divine Messenger has a dual station; He is both a man (who was born, died, etc.) and also a Manifestation of the eternal spirit of God. He may be likened to a mirror reflecting the sun. It is correct to point to the mirror and say, "That is the sun." It is also correct to say "That's not the sun, only a mirror." Thus Jesus said, "Why callest thou Me good? There is none good but God" (Jesus the man speaking), but also said "Before Abraham was, I am" and "No one comes to the Father but by Me" (the eternal spirit speaking, here called "Christ"). This latter "but by Me" quote refers to the fact that only through these Messengers can humankind know God, and it is the Holy Spirit investing all these Messengers (there have been many) that makes Them all one and all equal parts of this Only Way, the Faith of God!

Peace,

Bruce

 

[Muffled]

So sorry, but that's mere assertion without evidence!

If you think that, feel free to state what these supposed "flaws" are.

Peace,

Bruce

I haven't seen the logic in a while. Perhaps you could refresh my memory.

As I remember the only argument was that a universal God couldn't fit in the body. However that does not preclude God from entering a body. What you are saying is that God can't exist in NYC because He is everywhere. The reality is that God does exist in NYC because He is everywhere.

I think but I am not sure this doesn't just come from Islam that it is beneath the dignity of God to enter a body. However I have never known God to state that He considers it undignified.

 

[Muffled]

I feel that god incarnates within us all, that is when we realize from deep within the we are not just the mind body organism but we are the divine spark of god, call it the Christ consciousness, Buddha Consciousness, or whatever, when this consciousness is given birth we can say that we are the incarnation of god.

I believe God never enters where He is not invited.

 

[Muffled]

A Divine Messenger has a dual station; He is both a man (who was born, died, etc.) and also a Manifestation of the eternal spirit of God. He may be likened to a mirror reflecting the sun. It is correct to point to the mirror and say, "That is the sun." It is also correct to say "That's not the sun, only a mirror." Thus Jesus said, "Why callest thou Me good? There is none good but God" (Jesus the man speaking), but also said "Before Abraham was, I am" and "No one comes to the Father but by Me" (the eternal spirit speaking, here called "Christ"). This latter "but by Me" quote refers to the fact that only through these Messengers can humankind know God, and it is the Holy Spirit investing all these Messengers (there have been many) that makes Them all one and all equal parts of this Only Way, the Faith of God!

Peace,

Bruce

I believe that to be true.

If you are saying that Jesus is just a mirror then I would definitely disagree and I don't believe His words support that view nor do I believe that a case has been made to that extent.

I believe the text says nothing about other messengers.

I believe It is not messengers that make equality but the origin of the message that makes equality but in Jesus the messenger is the origin.

 

[BruceDLimber]

I think but I am not sure this doesn't just come from Islam.

So? I never said that it did.

I am neither Muslim nor quoting a Muslim source: I'm Baha'i and quoted a Baha'i source.

And as I said, the Baha'i Faith makes clear that God does not incarnate Himself.

Simple as that.

Peace,

Bruce