Incest. Why Not?

[Terrywoodenpic]

This is why I don't think, generally, there can be genuine consent in an incestuous couple. That said, there ARE always exceptions. Victoria and Albert were first cousins, after all.

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First cousin marriage is extremely common and legal in most of the world. It is often the preferred choice in Pakistan.

I have my full family tree gong back to he early 1700's. in that time there have been two first cousin marriages in branches of the family, one of which was out of my own branch.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Native tribes and clans are almost always composed of cousins of some sort or degree, often separated by one or more generations. Some require marriage to bring in new blood. But as most local tribes are closely linked the amount of dilution is limited.

 

[joe1776]

The limitations you mentioned were "non-harm" (which is rather nebulous as a concept, especially given the psychological dimension and Stockholm's Syndrome) and non-reproductive (i.e. sterility or contraception).

My forum post wasn't written as a law, closing off loopholes. The question of whether the act was between consenting adults or one which involved harm to an innocent person is one that is fairly easy to judge by a jury given the facts in an actual case.

I don't think that's a particularly effective set of restrictions. The first is much too ill-defined and open to interpretation. The latter doesn't address the very real social, cultural and power dynamic issues either.

The greatest liberation many people have experienced in life, is to "leave" the family unit and broaden their social relations by finding a sexual partner outside their original, narrow social unit. There are literally mountains of research which demonstrate, amply, that excessive kinship is bad for individual self-fulfilment and for a properly functioning society, of any degree of sophistication beyond a hunter-gatherer tribe (and even different tribes had to collaborate and practice exogamy for survival).

I have no doubt that an argument can be concocted for creating any victim-less crime. However, I think it's immoral to write such laws.

Carte blanche legalising or socially accepting incest, with the weak controls that you mention, would have a disastrous impact not only on society but on personal freedom for many people.

I don't know how you can possibly characterize what I wrote that way but....

 

[Polymath257]

There have been a number of studies showing that children raised together tend to avoid each other as mates. This is probably a biological thing, not a cultural thing. There are good evolutionary reasons for such avoidance to arise.

That said, I know of a brother and sister that were raised apart and didn't meet each other until adulthood. He had a vasectomy, so there was no risk of pregnancy. She said it was some of the best sex she ever had. The sexual relationship didn't last, but was clearly significant to both of them.

My own view? As long as coercion and reproductive issues are taken into consideration, I have no problem with it. Most people raised together will have the 'ick' factor naturally and coercion is much more of a problem. But if actual consent exists and if no kids are produced, I have no issue with it.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

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First cousin marriage is extremely common and legal in most of the world. It is often the preferred choice in Pakistan.

I have my full family tree gong back to he early 1700's. in that time there have been two first cousin marriages in branches of the family, one of which was out of my own branch.

Just because it's common doesn't mean it's moral. I'm not saying first cousin marriage ISN'T, necessarily... but I can imagine plenty of situations where it is.

 

[Augustus]

Whole lotta "maybe" in those assumptions. What percentage of any given "ick" response is biological vs cultural is always debatable, and that's before one even considers the fact that technology renders some of our "ick" responses inappropriate or unnecessary.

Numerous scientific studies in evolutionary biology have found evidence for an inbuilt resistance to incestuous acts based on early childhood bonding. This is reflected in the almost universal rejection of the practice (and also in the behaviour of other animals).

This differs from other ick based responses which are largely cultural, for example a dislike of homosexual acts. As such, lumping them all together as subjective and somewhat arbitrary morality doesn't seem to be accurate.

And this is before the strong sociological case against the practice as legalising it would likely harm more people than would benefit.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Numerous scientific studies in evolutionary biology have found evidence for an inbuilt resistance to incestuous acts based on early childhood bonding. This is reflected in the almost universal rejection of the practice (and also in the behaviour of other animals).

This differs from other ick based responses which are largely cultural, for example a dislike of homosexual acts. As such, lumping them all together as subjective and somewhat arbitrary morality doesn't seem to be accurate.

And this is before the strong sociological case against the practice as legalising it would likely harm more people than would benefit.

And yet other scientific studies show us that genetic sexual attraction as a thing.

Genetic sexual attraction - Wikipedia

With all due respect, I rather think you're ad hocing to justify your own "ick" response.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

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First cousin marriage is extremely common and legal in most of the world. It is often the preferred choice in Pakistan.

I have my full family tree gong back to he early 1700's. in that time there have been two first cousin marriages in branches of the family, one of which was out of my own branch.

Cousin marriage isn't common in Canada, but I was surprised when I learned that it's legal here in Ontario.

Here - at least the last time I saw a marriage license form - the only prohibited marriages are:

- parent and child
- grandparent and grandchild
- sibling and sibling

Marriage of first cousins is legal, as is marriage of an aunt or uncle to their niece or nephew.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Just because it's common doesn't mean it's moral. I'm not saying first cousin marriage ISN'T, necessarily... but I can imagine plenty of situations where it is.

There is nothing immoral in first cousin marriage, nor is it illegal in most countries.
Nor does it cause genetic problems unless repeated, or is a common practice in a small population.

In some small American rural communities repeated intermarriage became common place and decidedly dangerous to their mental and physical well-being. but morals did not come into it.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

There is nothing immoral in first cousin marriage

Assuming the full and informed consent of all involved, I agree.

Nor does it cause genetic problems unless repeated, or is a common practice in a small population.

The same is true for even closer forms of incest, though... IF it's not repeated. As noted earlier, there are plenty of people much more likely to have a child with birth defects than a first generation incestuous couple, but we don't try to prohibit their relationships, nor their ability to have children.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Cousin marriage isn't common in Canada, but I was surprised when I learned that it's legal here in Ontario.

Here - at least the last time I saw a marriage license form - the only prohibited marriages are:

- parent and child
- grandparent and grandchild
- sibling and sibling

Marriage of first cousins is legal, as is marriage of an aunt or uncle to their niece or nephew.

I would be surprised if Canada is any different to anywhere else in these matters. in most cases we are unaware of these things, nor is there any reason to bring them to anyone's attention.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Assuming the full and informed consent of all involved, I agree.


The same is true for even closer forms of incest, though... IF it's not repeated. As noted earlier, there are plenty of people much more likely to have a child with birth defects than a first generation incestuous couple, but we don't try to prohibit their relationships, nor their ability to have children.

Why do you call them incestuous. first cousin marriage is not incestuous.

 

[Augustus]

With all due respect, I rather think you're ad hocing to justify your own "ick" response.

Would you say that is true of all the authors of the peer-reviewed articles which make similar points?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Would you say that is true of all the authors of the peer-reviewed articles which make similar points?

Many published authors have hangups about sexual matters, it is a popular and well rewarded subject area.
that they share their view with others, does not mean that they are correct.

 

[Augustus]

Many published authors have hangups about sexual matters, it is a popular and well rewarded subject area.
that they share their view with others, does not mean that they are correct.

Evolutionary biology/psychology are complex subject areas so of course there is a chance that findings may not always be accurate.

Should we start with the assumption that peer-reviewed articles from reputable scientific journals are reflective of the authors' hangups though?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Evolutionary biology/psychology are complex subject areas so of course there is a chance that findings may not always be accurate.

Should we start with the assumption that peer-reviewed articles from reputable scientific journals are reflective of the authors' hangups though?

scientific journals are only able to publish what is supplied to them this is often, "Popular" subject and from people with forceful opinions. Most such publishers do vet what the publish in some way, hence the move to accepting new concepts can be painfully slow, with the balance always favouring the status quo.

Over time a large majority of learned papers are superseded by newer ones or are proved erroneous by subsequent events. But like the things published on the WEB they are never erased and are often quoted.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Why do you call them incestuous. first cousin marriage is not incestuous.

Define "incestuous"

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Would you say that is true of all the authors of the peer-reviewed articles which make similar points?

I'm pretty confident that the value judgments in your post are your own.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

In the breeding of livestock and domestic animals (and yes, plants, too), incest is often used to help develop and fix desirable traits in a population. Yes, undesirable traits also emerge, but can also be prevented from reproducing themselves, since by and large the population of interest is entirely domesticated.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Merriam Webster defines it as

Definition of incestuous


1: constituting or involving incest

2: guilty of incest

3: excessively or improperly intimate or exclusivemainstream fashion magazines have an incestuous relationship with advertisers— Guy Trebay

Or if you prefer Collins

Definition of 'incestuous'
1. adjective
An incestuous relationship is one involving sexualintercourse between two members of the same family, for example a father and daughter, or a brother and sister.
They accused her of an incestuous relationship with her father.
2. adjective
If you describe a group of people as incestuous, you disapprove of the fact that they are not interested in ideas or people from outside the group.
[disapproval]
Its inhabitants are a close and incestuous lot.
Hospitals are very incestuous places.
COBUILD Advanced English Dictionary. Copyright © HarperCollins Publishers