Incest

[Yerda]

I often hear "I have no objection to sex between two consenting adults"
Should we apply the same degree of tolerance to incestious relations?

Of course.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

I often hear "I have no objection to sex between two consenting adults"
Should we apply the same degree of tolerance to incestious relations?

Main reason why it is illegal in the US is because of the high probability of having mentally deficit children.

 

[clerick]

What if its two men or two women and adults, I personally see no issue if two sisters or a mother and daughter want to be lovers if adults. So why make it illegal?

 

[Cephus]

Main reason why it is illegal in the US is because of the high probability of having mentally deficit children.

Which really isn't the case anymore, but even if it is, have the people involved fixed so they can no longer have children. Why is it a problem then?

 

[bobhikes]

I often hear "I have no objection to sex between two consenting adults"
Should we apply the same degree of tolerance to incestious relations?

Consenting adults is key here. Must be adults and consenting not coerced. Coercion is probably the reason most of this happens and that would be wrong.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Which really isn't the case anymore, but even if it is, have the people involved fixed so they can no longer have children. Why is it a problem then?

forced sterilization is a problem because it is a violation of the individual's rights to self-determination. It requires society, or some faction of it, to identify individuals who are engaged in incest without being "fixed," and then forcibly taking those individuals and performing surgery on them.

 

[Cephus]

forced sterilization is a problem because it is a violation of the individual's rights to self-determination. It requires society, or some faction of it, to identify individuals who are engaged in incest without being "fixed," and then forcibly taking those individuals and performing surgery on them.

I'm not saying forced, I'm asking if the two people in question were sterilized and could not have children, would that affect people's reaction to incest? For most people, it wouldn't, just because they've been enculturated to see it as "icky", It's not a rational position, it's an emotional one.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Which really isn't the case anymore, but even if it is, have the people involved fixed so they can no longer have children. Why is it a problem then?

Its not illegal at that point actually. Either way I think it has become a cultural no-no based out of our instinctive lack of sexual interest in our siblings.

 

[Cephus]

Its not illegal at that point actually. Either way I think it has become a cultural no-no based out of our instinctive lack of sexual interest in our siblings.

Absolutely it is. In every single state in the United States, it is illegal to have sex with a close family member, whether you reproduce or not. I don't know that there is an instinctive lack of sexual interest in siblings either, I suspect it's entirely cultural and indoctrinated.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

I'm not saying forced, I'm asking if the two people in question were sterilized and could not have children, would that affect people's reaction to incest? For most people, it wouldn't, just because they've been enculturated to see it as "icky", It's not a rational position, it's an emotional one.

ah! I didn't read your post that way; I think a couple of additional words might have helped. yes, I see your point there.

 

[Skwim]

Absolutely it is. In every single state in the United States, it is illegal to have sex with a close family member, whether you reproduce or not. I don't know that there is an instinctive lack of sexual interest in siblings either, I suspect it's entirely cultural and indoctrinated.

Not really.

Rhode Island has repealed its criminal incest statute and only criminalizes incestuous marriage. Ohio "targets only parental figures", and New Jersey does not apply any penalties when both parties are 18 years of age or older.
source:Wikipedia

 

[Cephus]

Not really.

Rhode Island has repealed its criminal incest statute and only criminalizes incestuous marriage. Ohio "targets only parental figures", and New Jersey does not apply any penalties when both parties are 18 years of age or older.
source:Wikipedia

Alright, 47 out of 50 states criminalize it, some with life imprisonment. That doesn't change the argument a bit.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Absolutely it is. In every single state in the United States, it is illegal to have sex with a close family member, whether you reproduce or not. I don't know that there is an instinctive lack of sexual interest in siblings either, I suspect it's entirely cultural and indoctrinated.

It is absolutely intrinsic to our nature. It isn't just societal.

 

[Khatru]

I often hear "I have no objection to sex between two consenting adults"
Should we apply the same degree of tolerance to incestious relations?

Well, the Bible god was certainly tolerant of the incestuous relationship that existed between Abraham and Sarah.

 

[Skwim]

It is absolutely intrinsic to our nature. It isn't just societal.

Interesting. Got any evidence?

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Interesting. Got any evidence?

There are actually quite a few studies. The Westermarck effect being one of the most famous. Now this isn't to say that if two were separated at birth they wouldn't be attracted to each other but it appears to be a psychologically innate issue that has been ingrained in us genetically. Examples of incest aversion goes back to the ancient Greeks with the tale of Oedipus.

A large part of it has to do with the psychological effect we have of those around us during our young age. Though if there is a large enough gap between the ages or separation of the two during the younger years it seems that the effect is lessened.

 

[Cephus]

It is absolutely intrinsic to our nature. It isn't just societal.

If it was, there wouldn't have to be laws against it, nobody would be doing it.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

If it was, there wouldn't have to be laws against it, nobody would be doing it.

Fallacious. We have an intrinsic nature not to kill ourselves but people do it anyway. And read the above post.

Though if it was not intrinsic to us then I also doubt it woudn't be illegal.

 

[Skwim]

There are actually quite a few studies. The Westermarck effect being one of the most famous. Now this isn't to say that if two were separated at birth they wouldn't be attracted to each other but it appears to be a psychologically innate issue that has been ingrained in us genetically. Examples of incest aversion goes back to the ancient Greeks with the tale of Oedipus.

A large part of it has to do with the psychological effect we have of those around us during our young age. Though if there is a large enough gap between the ages or separation of the two during the younger years it seems that the effect is lessened.

Then there's the "Genetic sexual attraction" that would override the hypothetical Westermarck imprinting.

"People tend to select mates that are like themselves; this is known as assortative mating. This holds both for physical appearances and mental traits. People commonly rank faces similar to their own as more attractive, trustworthy, etc. than average.[3] However, Bereczkei (2004) attributes this in part to childhood imprinting on the opposite-sex parent. As for mental traits, one study found a correlation of 0.403 between husbands and wives, with husbands averaging about 2 IQ points higher. The study also reported a correlation of 0.233 for extraversion and 0.235 for inconsistency (using Eysenck's Personality Inventory). A review of many previous studies found these numbers to be quite common.[4]

Heredity produces substantial physical and mental similarity between close relatives. Shared interests and personality traits are commonly considered desirable in a mate. The heritability of these qualities is a matter of debate but estimates are that IQ is about 80% heritable, and the big five personality factors are about 50% heritable. These data are for adults in western countries.[5]

For the above reasons, genetic sexual attraction is presumed to occur as a consequence of genetic relatives meeting as adults, typically as a consequence of adoption. Although this is a rare consequence of adoptive reunions, the large number of adoptive reunions in recent years means that a larger number of people are affected.[6] If a sexual relationship is entered, it is known as incest.

GSA is rare between people raised together in early childhood due to a reverse sexual imprinting known as the Westermarck effect, which desensitizes them to later close sexual attraction. It is hypothesized that this effect evolved to prevent inbreeding."
Source: Wikipedia​

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Then there's the "Genetic sexual attraction" that would override the hypothetical Westermarck imprinting.

"People tend to select mates that are like themselves; this is known as assortative mating. This holds both for physical appearances and mental traits. People commonly rank faces similar to their own as more attractive, trustworthy, etc. than average.[3] However, Bereczkei (2004) attributes this in part to childhood imprinting on the opposite-sex parent. As for mental traits, one study found a correlation of 0.403 between husbands and wives, with husbands averaging about 2 IQ points higher. The study also reported a correlation of 0.233 for extraversion and 0.235 for inconsistency (using Eysenck's Personality Inventory). A review of many previous studies found these numbers to be quite common.[4]

Heredity produces substantial physical and mental similarity between close relatives. Shared interests and personality traits are commonly considered desirable in a mate. The heritability of these qualities is a matter of debate but estimates are that IQ is about 80% heritable, and the big five personality factors are about 50% heritable. These data are for adults in western countries.[5]

For the above reasons, genetic sexual attraction is presumed to occur as a consequence of genetic relatives meeting as adults, typically as a consequence of adoption. Although this is a rare consequence of adoptive reunions, the large number of adoptive reunions in recent years means that a larger number of people are affected.[6] If a sexual relationship is entered, it is known as incest.

GSA is rare between people raised together in early childhood due to a reverse sexual imprinting known as the Westermarck effect, which desensitizes them to later close sexual attraction. It is hypothesized that this effect evolved to prevent inbreeding."
Source: Wikipedia​

No one has questioned that there is a trend of going after mates that are similar to your family. This is well known in psychology. But to actually be inscestive is not the norm and does have aversions. Nothing listed there is against what I have stated or what has been studied. The effect isn't overridden but included.