Inconvenient historical truths?

[SomeRandom]

Reality is rarely black and white. Even in cases where it probably should be to our eyes
So I wanted to discuss the inconvenient nuances that plague historical events and how we react and indeed teach that.
For example
The Holocaust. We perhaps like to think it’s a very black and white event. Insofar as Hitler is just an evil crony who tries to exterminate the Jews. And that is certainly true. Absolutely without question.
But that also means we think of Jewish folks as either victims or rebel renegades. When that actually isn’t entirely true. There were certainly renegades nobly fighting Hitler’s regime and unfortunately many more were victims of senseless slaughter.
However there were those who supported the regime. In the early days of the rise of Nazi power there were the German Association of National Jews. A group of Jewish people who outright supported Hitler and even joked that they would die as a result. Which in hindsight is a much darker joke tbh. Interestingly I think the leader of such a movement only spent two weeks in a concentration camp only to tragically die of cancer shortly afterwards. (You could argue he dodged a bullet, I suppose.)
Ernst Rohm was an out gay man who stringently supported Hitler and the “National Socialists.” Only to be tragically killed during the infamous “night of the long knives.”
Even during the war, there actually were Jewish folks in the German military. If only because it gave them great protection, at least for a while, during Hitler’s campaign. Since there was the common sentiment of “Goreing protecting his own.” (Apologies for the misspelling)
And hey, you do what you gotta do to survive, I say. I’m absolutely not passing any judgement whatsoever.
Hell a close personal friend of Hitler was himself Jewish and served as his driver even. Hitler even interceded on his behalf when Himmler tried to put him in prison. Not even kidding.

So tell me your experiences? Your thoughts? Your sense of betrayal when you found out that history was more grey than you were taught? Or anything you like really

For reference
The Jews Who Fought for Nazi Germany
Frequently Asked Questions about the Holocaust
Association of German National Jews - Wikipedia
Ernst Röhm - Wikipedia
Night of the Long Knives - Wikipedia

(I know this was mostly about the Nazis but that was one historical event I was even remotely confident in being knowledgeable of. To an extent. I’m no historian.)

 

[Estro Felino]

That's what scares me the most.
Whenever a religious group is considered like a giant monolith.
No religious group is like a monolith. There are the good and the wicked in every religion.
And there wicked people harming fellow religious people, within the same religion.

Because if one says The Vatican is rotten to the core, no Catholic feels targeted or insulted because some Catholics think exactly the same thing.

I don't understand why historians speak of Nazi Germany as if it were made up by the wicked Christians who were against the Jews.
When the Nazi Government had Jewish ministers and when the IG Farben (that built Auschwitz and Auschwitz genocidal machine) was owned by Warburg, a Jewish banking dynasty.

Hjalmar Schacht - Wikipedia
IG Farben - Wikipedia

 

[Shadow Wolf]

When such a thing had a profound and significant impact on my life it was just regular world history, that contradicts heavily was I was taught in Church. It shook up things, adjusted my world view, and that combined with some other things had me leaving the Church.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I don't understand why historians speak of Nazi Germany as if it were made up by the wicked Christians who were against the Jews.

The Nazi Germans did like all the Christian stuff Hitler fed them.

 

[sun rise]

However there were those who supported the regime. In the early days of the rise of Nazi power there were the German Association of National Jews. A group of Jewish people who outright supported Hitler and even joked that they would die as a result.

People do things against their own personal interest all the time. That's the most extreme case but it illustrates what is going on today albeit not in that extreme form.

 

[Estro Felino]

The Nazi Germans did like all the Christian stuff Hitler fed them.

That's not the point of the thread and that was not the point of my post.
I meant there are good people and bad people in every religion.

 

[SomeRandom]

The Nazi Germans did like all the Christian stuff Hitler fed them.

The Nazis allied with Japan despite their race purity teachings.
Hitler is on record lamenting how the Germans inherited the Christian faith was “weak” in comparison to Islam (to Hitler’s estimation.)
Another inconvenient truth in history, right? And indeed a glimpse at the contradictory ideals of someone like Hitler. Showing that he had complexity. Contradictory complexity, but complexity nonetheless

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The Nazis allied with Japan despite their race purity teachings.
Hitler is on record lamenting how the Germans inherited the Christian faith was “weak” in comparison to Islam (to Hitler’s estimation.)
Another inconvenient truth in history, right? And indeed a glimpse at the contradictory ideals of someone like Hitler. Showing that he had complexity. Contradictory complexity, but complexity nonetheless

Yeah, but it still doesn't change the fact the Germans ate it up and Hitler deliberately used it to exploit them and gain their support.

 

[exchemist]

Reality is rarely black and white. Even in cases where it probably should be to our eyes
So I wanted to discuss the inconvenient nuances that plague historical events and how we react and indeed teach that.
For example
The Holocaust. We perhaps like to think it’s a very black and white event. Insofar as Hitler is just an evil crony who tries to exterminate the Jews. And that is certainly true. Absolutely without question.
But that also means we think of Jewish folks as either victims or rebel renegades. When that actually isn’t entirely true. There were certainly renegades nobly fighting Hitler’s regime and unfortunately many more were victims of senseless slaughter.
However there were those who supported the regime. In the early days of the rise of Nazi power there were the German Association of National Jews. A group of Jewish people who outright supported Hitler and even joked that they would die as a result. Which in hindsight is a much darker joke tbh. Interestingly I think the leader of such a movement only spent two weeks in a concentration camp only to tragically die of cancer shortly afterwards. (You could argue he dodged a bullet, I suppose.)
Ernst Rohm was an out gay man who stringently supported Hitler and the “National Socialists.” Only to be tragically killed during the infamous “night of the long knives.”
Even during the war, there actually were Jewish folks in the German military. If only because it gave them great protection, at least for a while, during Hitler’s campaign. Since there was the common sentiment of “Goreing protecting his own.” (Apologies for the misspelling)
And hey, you do what you gotta do to survive, I say. I’m absolutely not passing any judgement whatsoever.
Hell a close personal friend of Hitler was himself Jewish and served as his driver even. Hitler even interceded on his behalf when Himmler tried to put him in prison. Not even kidding.

So tell me your experiences? Your thoughts? Your sense of betrayal when you found out that history was more grey than you were taught? Or anything you like really

For reference
The Jews Who Fought for Nazi Germany
Frequently Asked Questions about the Holocaust
Association of German National Jews - Wikipedia
Ernst Röhm - Wikipedia
Night of the Long Knives - Wikipedia

(I know this was mostly about the Nazis but that was one historical event I was even remotely confident in being knowledgeable of. To an extent. I’m no historian.)

I think it's all part of growing up.

As we grow to maturity we all discover, with some shock, that our heroes had feet of clay and that our villains had at least some reasons for what led to them to villainy. Almost every "genius" had some personality defect. Every "noble" cause in war had its atrocities.

There is an awful tendency for public discourse to try to reduce everything to black and white: goodies and baddies. It's infantile. Real life is never like that.

 

[SomeRandom]

Yeah, but it still doesn't change the fact the Germans ate it up and Hitler deliberately used it to exploit them and gain their support.

Oh indeed. Religion was quite the useful tool for the regime

 

[Stevicus]

Reality is rarely black and white. Even in cases where it probably should be to our eyes
So I wanted to discuss the inconvenient nuances that plague historical events and how we react and indeed teach that.

...

So tell me your experiences? Your thoughts? Your sense of betrayal when you found out that history was more grey than you were taught? Or anything you like really

Most of my early lessons in history were decidedly pro-American or otherwise told from an American point of view. It wasn't until I started looking at history more in depth (in college and beyond) that I got a wider perspective. Though I did learn about WW2 and Hitler rather early on, at least on a basic level, but still mostly from a US point of view. However, it proved to be an inconvenient historical truth to find out that we didn't win the war single-handedly.

A lot of our own history here in the U.S. was also told more in the form of myth, especially in how the U.S. expanded to what it is now. There's been a lot of folklore about the frontier, cowboys, home on the range - a significant part of the culture of Americana, even if it's more fiction than fact. Even stories like the First Thanksgiving can raise some hackles.

This is the kind of history I grew up with:

 

[Brickjectivity]

Reality is rarely black and white. Even in cases where it probably should be to our eyes
So I wanted to discuss the inconvenient nuances that plague historical events and how we react and indeed teach that.
For example
The Holocaust. We perhaps like to think it’s a very black and white event. Insofar as Hitler is just an evil crony who tries to exterminate the Jews. And that is certainly true. Absolutely without question.
But that also means we think of Jewish folks as either victims or rebel renegades. When that actually isn’t entirely true. There were certainly renegades nobly fighting Hitler’s regime and unfortunately many more were victims of senseless slaughter.
However there were those who supported the regime. In the early days of the rise of Nazi power there were the German Association of National Jews. A group of Jewish people who outright supported Hitler and even joked that they would die as a result. Which in hindsight is a much darker joke tbh. Interestingly I think the leader of such a movement only spent two weeks in a concentration camp only to tragically die of cancer shortly afterwards. (You could argue he dodged a bullet, I suppose.)
Ernst Rohm was an out gay man who stringently supported Hitler and the “National Socialists.” Only to be tragically killed during the infamous “night of the long knives.”
Even during the war, there actually were Jewish folks in the German military. If only because it gave them great protection, at least for a while, during Hitler’s campaign. Since there was the common sentiment of “Goreing protecting his own.” (Apologies for the misspelling)
And hey, you do what you gotta do to survive, I say. I’m absolutely not passing any judgement whatsoever.
Hell a close personal friend of Hitler was himself Jewish and served as his driver even. Hitler even interceded on his behalf when Himmler tried to put him in prison. Not even kidding.

So tell me your experiences? Your thoughts? Your sense of betrayal when you found out that history was more grey than you were taught? Or anything you like really

For reference
The Jews Who Fought for Nazi Germany
Frequently Asked Questions about the Holocaust
Association of German National Jews - Wikipedia
Ernst Röhm - Wikipedia
Night of the Long Knives - Wikipedia

(I know this was mostly about the Nazis but that was one historical event I was even remotely confident in being knowledgeable of. To an extent. I’m no historian.)

I don't think they are inconvenient but are too trivial to mention when trying to make people aware of the genocide and to prevent its recurrence. They are nontrivial in an academic sense, but most people are not academically interested.

 

[an anarchist]

Or anything you like really

The minimum wage is historically rooted in eugenics, in the US at least. Having a minimum wage was thought to be a way prevent “undesirable folk” (such as colored individuals) from breeding.
Here is something to back up my claim, a report by president Woodrow Wilson’s commissioner of labor.
Review on JSTOR

"It is much better to enact a minimum-wage law, even if it deprives these unfortunates of work. Better that the state should support the inefficient wholly and prevent the multiplication of the breed than subsidize incompetence and unthrift, enabling them to bring forth more of their kind."

I’m sure I can dig up some more stuff on the matter but don’t have time right now. But the minimum wage has a dark history, which is inconvenient for people who are proponents of the minimum wage.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

The minimum wage is historically rooted in eugenics, in the US at least. Having a minimum wage was thought to be a way prevent “undesirable folk” (such as colored individuals) from breeding.
Here is something to back up my claim, a report by president Woodrow Wilson’s commissioner of labor.
Review on JSTOR

"It is much better to enact a minimum-wage law, even if it deprives these unfortunates of work. Better that the state should support the inefficient wholly and prevent the multiplication of the breed than subsidize incompetence and unthrift, enabling them to bring forth more of their kind."

I’m sure I can dig up some more stuff on the matter but don’t have time right now. But the minimum wage has a dark history, which is inconvenient for people who are proponents of the minimum wage.

The first minimum wage was implemented in Australia, in 1896, was pushed for by trade unions, following a Royal Commission which found that workers couldn't survive on their wages in even a basic form.

I know you said 'in the US' but your point is overstated at best.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

So tell me your experiences? Your thoughts?

My experiences suggest to me that those who delight in proclaiming "but there were bad people on both sides" differ little from those who protest "but there were good people on both sides, save for the fact that the former prefer to tiptoe through the antisemitic swamp rather than wallow in it.

 

[The Hammer]

My experiences suggest to me that those who delight in proclaiming "but there were bad people on both sides" differ little from those who protest "but there were good people on both sides, save for the fact that the former prefer to tiptoe through the antisemitic swamp rather than wallow in it.

Nothing is black and white.

 

[SomeRandom]

I don't think they are inconvenient but are too trivial to mention when trying to make people aware of the genocide and to prevent its recurrence. They are nontrivial in an academic sense, but most people are not academically interested.

I kind of disagree, actually.
Sure we all know the horrors of something like the Holocaust. Which I mentioned at length. But without that knowledge of Ernst Rohm or “Jews for Hitler” it’s far easier for people to believe that a minority can’t support a regime that apparently does not like them. I have encountered that even in discussions where folks seem unaware that that can happen. Using identity politics to excuse the behaviour of someone.
Like a person apparently encouraging transphobic policies when they themselves are trans.
It’s like an alien concept to folks but it can and does happen.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I kind of disagree, actually.
Sure we all know the horrors of something like the Holocaust. Which I mentioned at length. But without that knowledge of Ernst Rohm or “Jews for Hitler” it’s far easier for people to believe that a minority can’t support a regime that apparently does not like them. I have encountered that even in discussions where folks seem unaware that that can happen. Using identity politics to excuse the behaviour of someone.
Like a person apparently encouraging transphobic policies when they themselves are trans.
It’s like an alien concept to folks but it can and does happen.

No group is perfectly monolithic. Here is one man's interesting discourse on the political groups he has identified in Canadian politics, noting that often people do not fully agree in discrete blocks.

Spoiler: 35 Tribes of Canada vid

 

[Quagmire]

Nothing is black and white.

A particular type of thinking is.

 

[The Hammer]

A particular type of thinking is.

Absolutely true.

And I do my best to stay out of it when/where possible.