Incredulity in the supernatural.

[Trailblazer]

So, i see you are quite religious, i don't know what religion, probably mostly Christian, or at least God believers. U have a book that's a collection of books, that has surely been edited time and time again, translated from ancient languages that nowadays we have a pretty good idea what they meant, but a lot of time has passed since.
Your deity is Infinitely powerful, knows all that has happened, happens, and will happen i assume Everything in this world is like it is, because this deity set it that way.

I believe that God is All-powerful, All-knowing, and All-wise. As such God knows all what has happened, happens, and what will happen in the future.

I believe that everything in this world was like it was because God set it up that way at the beginning of the world, but since then things are the way they are because of man's choices and actions. God has done nothing to intervene except fro sending Messengers/Prophets every 500-1000 years or so.

In your world view, what is our purpose? i assume we are fundamentally different from the rest of the animal kingdom? i do have my own responses but i'd really like to know yours

I believe that humans are fundamentally different from the other animals because we have a soul that can comprehend God whereas the other animals only have a spirit, and are thus unable to comprehend God. Also, I believe that humans are made in the image of God so we have the potential to reflect the attributes of God such as Good, Loving, Gracious, Merciful, Just, Righteous, Forgiving, Patient. Humans also have the 'potential' to reflect these attributes of God and we reflect them to a greater of lesser degree, depending upon how spiritual we are.

According to my religious beliefs the primary purpose of our life is to know and love God. Secondarily, our purpose of to acquire spiritual attributes (qualities of character) that help us in the life and are vital for our life in the next world.

Below are some passages from the Writings of my religion, the Bahai Faith, that reflect the purpose of this life, individually and collectively.

“The purpose of God in creating man hath been, and will ever be, to enable him to know his Creator and to attain His Presence. To this most excellent aim, this supreme objective, all the heavenly Books and the divinely-revealed and weighty Scriptures unequivocally bear witness.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 70

“The Prophets and Messengers of God have been sent down for the sole purpose of guiding mankind to the 157 straight Path of Truth. The purpose underlying Their revelation hath been to educate all men, that they may, at the hour of death, ascend, in the utmost purity and sanctity and with absolute detachment, to the throne of the Most High.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 156-157

“God’s purpose in sending His Prophets unto men is twofold. The first is to liberate the children of men from the darkness of ignorance, and guide them to the light of true understanding. The second is to ensure the peace and tranquillity of mankind, and provide all the means by which they can be established.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 79-80

“God’s purpose is none other than to usher in, in ways He alone can bring about, and the full significance of which He alone can fathom, the Great, the Golden Age of a long-divided, a long-afflicted humanity. Its present state, indeed even its immediate future, is dark, distressingly dark. Its distant future, however, is radiant, gloriously radiant—so radiant that no eye can visualize it............” The Promised Day is Come, p. 116

God’s Purpose

 

[sun rise]

In your world view, what is our purpose?

To be united with God through love.

I assume we are fundamentally different from the rest of the animal kingdom?

Not at all. All forms have souls. The difference is that as humans soul evolution is finished and the next phase of life, reincarnation, begins.

 

[Trailblazer]

To be united with God through love.

A very lofty goal although it is a goal I am yet to achieve.

5: O SON OF BEING! Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant.

6: O SON OF BEING! Thy Paradise is My love; thy heavenly home, reunion with Me. Enter therein and tarry not. This is that which hath been destined for thee in Our kingdom above and Our exalted dominion.

The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh

 

[Bear Wild]

To be united with God through love.

Not at all. All forms have souls. The difference is that as humans soul evolution is finished and the next phase of life, reincarnation, begins.

Are you sure about that? It seems to me that human souls are going through devolution as they lose connection with the greater universe. We have become so fixated on our egos and feeding the ego that we have lost connection with our soul and its connection with the greater world. We just think we are more evolved because we live in an anthropocentric world. Those of us who don't see ourselves intimately connected with the other souls of our universe. This becomes illuminated through the dissolution of the ego to return in harmony with our souls. Then and only then can we recover our ego in alignment with our soul. It is then we see just how equal we are with all animate beings around us. We come back in resonance with the world.

 

[Bear Wild]

Hey hey, Atheist here, when i was young i believed in ESP powers and ghosts and stuff, but with the years i felt insufficient evidence (although very entertaining) was being provided, and kinda put it away, i still think there's things out there i cannot explain, but if i need to leap into supernatural phenomena to justify it... i don't care that much
So, i see you are quite religious, i don't know what religion, probably mostly Christian, or at least God believers. U have a book that's a collection of books, that has surely been edited time and time again, translated from ancient languages that nowadays we have a pretty good idea what they meant, but a lot of time has passed since.
Your deity is Infinitely powerful, knows all that has happened, happens, and will happen i assume Everything in this world is like it is, because this deity set it that way.
In your world view, what is our purpose? i assume we are fundamentally different from the rest of the animal kingdom? i do have my own responses but i'd really like to know yours
Cheers!

Nice to have you in the forum. I fit under the pagan umbrella and my deities are not infinitely powerful and they are not supernatural. They are immanent in this natural world. Since I am an animal coexisting with a wonderful diversity of other animals and other beings which are all equally important in creating the rich diverse ecosystems of Earth and I would not exist without them, so I am happy to say I am animal and proud of it. Look forward to hearing more from you.

 

[Erebus]

Hey hey, Atheist here, when i was young i believed in ESP powers and ghosts and stuff, but with the years i felt insufficient evidence (although very entertaining) was being provided, and kinda put it away, i still think there's things out there i cannot explain, but if i need to leap into supernatural phenomena to justify it... i don't care that much
So, i see you are quite religious, i don't know what religion, probably mostly Christian, or at least God believers. U have a book that's a collection of books, that has surely been edited time and time again, translated from ancient languages that nowadays we have a pretty good idea what they meant, but a lot of time has passed since.
Your deity is Infinitely powerful, knows all that has happened, happens, and will happen i assume Everything in this world is like it is, because this deity set it that way.
In your world view, what is our purpose? i assume we are fundamentally different from the rest of the animal kingdom? i do have my own responses but i'd really like to know yours
Cheers!

I'm not a Christian and don't believe in an omnimax God. I'm not entirely sure of the best label for myself so I generally just say either Pagan or agnostic depending on the present company. I view nature as all-encompassing and so only use the word supernatural as shorthand for a broad range of beings and concepts. If I told you that my favourite horror films are supernatural horror, you'd get the gist of what I mean.

I don't view humans as having some divinely ordained purpose in the world. Purpose is something we have to find for ourselves. A quick litmus test to see where you find purpose would be to ask yourself the following question: If you could simply cease to exist at will, what reasons would you have for not doing so?

Whether or not humans are fundamentally different from other animals is a bit of a tricky question. Is an orangutan fundamentally different from a gibbon? Is a shark fundamentally different from a crocodile? The answer can be yes or no depending on how you interpret the question. In one sense, we are different from any other animal insofar as we've evolved different physical and mental characteristics. At the same time though, we're still just another species of ape and have the same basic needs as many other animals.

 

[PureX]

God or no God, we are creating/defining ourselves by every choice we make in response to whatever happens to us, and in pursuit of whatever we desire. Because we are not omniscient, and can't know why we are here, we get to decide this for ourselves, and in so doing, we determine who we are and who we are becoming.

That looks like a purpose to me. Although to what end, I do not know. I can only assume there is one.

 

[Pete in Panama]

God or no God, we are creating/defining ourselves by every choice we make in response to whatever happens to us, and in pursuit of whatever we desire. Because we are not omniscient, and can't know why we are here, we get to decide this for ourselves, and in so doing, we determine who we are and who we are becoming.

That looks like a purpose to me. Although to what end, I do not know. I can only assume there is one.

In your assumptions, have you thought about the nature of good/bad and truth/falsehood? Mainstream science believes there is an absolute truth that is independent of personal preference --we can see this by the fact that if some researcher repeatedly lies about his research data he's banned and never forgiven. None of this "the truth of my data is what I want it to be".

Do you agree that somethings are inherently good and some statements are clearly true or are do you subscribe to the idea that it's all personal preference?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Do you agree that somethings are inherently good and some statements are clearly true or are do you subscribe to the idea that it's all personal preference?

Enter the Euthyphro dilemma ...

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Do you agree that somethings are inherently good and some statements are clearly true or are do you subscribe to the idea that it's all personal preference?

Parenthetically, to answer your question: no and yes.

 

[Colt]

Hey hey, Atheist here, when i was young i believed in ESP powers and ghosts and stuff, but with the years i felt insufficient evidence (although very entertaining) was being provided, and kinda put it away, i still think there's things out there i cannot explain, but if i need to leap into supernatural phenomena to justify it... i don't care that much
So, i see you are quite religious, i don't know what religion, probably mostly Christian, or at least God believers. U have a book that's a collection of books, that has surely been edited time and time again, translated from ancient languages that nowadays we have a pretty good idea what they meant, but a lot of time has passed since.
Your deity is Infinitely powerful, knows all that has happened, happens, and will happen i assume Everything in this world is like it is, because this deity set it that way.
In your world view, what is our purpose? i assume we are fundamentally different from the rest of the animal kingdom? i do have my own responses but i'd really like to know yours
Cheers!

We are children of God living on evolutionary world(s) seeded by God for the purpose of experience, growing to become more like God. Our short turbulent life here is only the beginning of a long, long voyage into infinite reality.

 

[PureX]

In your assumptions, have you thought about the nature of good/bad and truth/falsehood? Mainstream science believes there is an absolute truth that is independent of personal preference --we can see this by the fact that if some researcher repeatedly lies about his research data he's banned and never forgiven. None of this "the truth of my data is what I want it to be".

Do you agree that somethings are inherently good and some statements are clearly true or are do you subscribe to the idea that it's all personal preference?

For we humans, the truth is whatever works within the limited context of our assessment. Thus it is only relatively true. And that goes for science, too.

Good and bad are assessments we make based on whatever ethical imperative we choose to uphold. So that, too, is relative.

Because we are not omniscient, we have to decide what is truth and value for ourselves. And as we do so, we are determining who we are as individual beings. Perhaps this is the true gift of our ignorance ... self-creation. And perhaps it's why we are here, and why we are as profoundly ignorant as we are. I don't know, of course, but it does make a certain kind of sense.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Surely there's a lot of different beliefs around, but since Christianity is the most popular, and Islam has quite the language/regional barrier, i directed my speech towards this first group.
I think the first words would add some context when i said:
"In your world view, what is our purpose? i assume we are fundamentally different from the rest of the animal kingdom?"
I think religion claims to have answer to the "Big Questions":
"Why are we here" "Where do we come from" that's what i was asking
The most popular religion today claims the existence of a Soul, something immortal that transcends human death, and also confers other properties, i clarify human since ¿apparently animals do not have souls? Again, not everyone believes that, but a significant portion does.
I'm naturally more attracted towards extraordinary claims, and the extraordinary evidence that should accompany them.
But of course i'm also interested if someone tells me they believe en god, but believe in science overall, in that case: what does God do in that regard?
Allow my then to simplify my question

What do you believe and why do you believe it?
Cheers!

There are quite a few members with no religious beliefs at all -- I am one. We also have Muslims quite competent at expressing themselves here in English (as well as Arabic), and Baha'is, some of whom are also adept at Arabic.

Are we "fundamentally different from the rest of the animal kingdom?" Yes, in many ways. We are, for example, pathetic weaklings compared to most other animals, and spectacularly lacking in tooth and claw. We have no poison glands to defend us, or fur or scales to protect us from the elements. Oh, yes, we have larger brains than most (but not all), and we have developed language -- though I think you'll find other animals have also developed quite sophisticated means of communicating with one another.

I guess the way we are most different is that we are one of the very few species of animal that cannot seem to live in some sort of harmony with the planet that gives us life, and are actively destroying not only many other species, but the very environment that sustains us.

 

[Bthoth]

Hey hey, Atheist here, when i was young i believed in ESP powers and ghosts and stuff, but with the years i felt insufficient evidence (although very entertaining) was being provided, and kinda put it away, i still think there's things out there i cannot explain, but if i need to leap into supernatural phenomena to justify it... i don't care that much

Hello and welcome. Throughout the thread there are interesting claims, comments and questions. Nice to see this type of thread as i agree most all conscious life is seeking to understand, why, purpose, how and then the end game/goal.

So, i see you are quite religious, i don't know what religion, probably mostly Christian, or at least God believers.

Not so much religious but aware of the beliefs.

U have a book that's a collection of books, that has surely been edited time and time again, translated from ancient languages that nowadays we have a pretty good idea what they meant, but a lot of time has passed since.

Good, at least the attempt to be fair is shown.

Your deity is Infinitely powerful, knows all that has happened, happens, and will happen i assume Everything in this world is like it is, because this deity set it that way.

The deity did not set it 'this way'. Your last comment expresses the edited explanations have been ongoing. People wrote 'this way' and that way based on the constant queries of people like you.

In your world view, what is our purpose?

Big question: 'To continue'. Life, no matter the species, once started intents to continue (survive).

i assume we are fundamentally different from the rest of the animal kingdom?

Sure, mankind is conscious and capable to know that it is alive and represent the experience; articulate thoughts, feelings, beliefs from the perspective of an 'aye' (self).

i do have my own responses but i'd really like to know yours
Cheers!

Big picture: Mankind is conscious life within existence (nature), created words and with words, math, symbols etc.... is DEFINING ITSELF.

Eventually to be capable of living forever and know how it works.

There is a phenomenal amount of perspectives that show this pattern.

Thank you for the unique and unabated inquiry.

 

[Pete in Panama]

Parenthetically, to answer your question: no and yes.

That thought appears to be in disarray.

Let's see if we can clean this up. Can you say that it's possible for a person to make a statement where most people --independantly-- will generally say the statement is clearly true or they'll say it's false? Can a person describe a phenomenon where most listeners will --independantly-- say it is good or they'll generally say it's bad?

 

[Pete in Panama]

For we humans, the truth is whatever works within the limited context of our assessment. Thus it is only relatively true. And that goes for science, too.

Good and bad are assessments we make based on whatever ethical imperative we choose to uphold. So that, too, is relative.

Within the scientific community, someone who falsifies his lab data and lies about his findings to get a grant --and is exposed-- will be considered to have lied --saying things that aren't true. No relativity involved. The fact that the person lied will be accepted as such universally. If the data is moved to the other side of the Andromeda Galaxy and read there. it will still be considered false. If we wait ten years it will still be considered fraudulent.

Say want you want about the scientific method, but the scientific community works with absolute truth.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

That thought appears to be in disarray.

Or your understanding is defective.
You asked ...

Do you agree that somethings are inherently good and some statements are clearly true or are do you subscribe to the idea that it's all personal preference?

The first component in fact asks two questions ...

1. Do you agree that somethings are inherently good ... ?
2. [Do you agree that] some statements are clearly true ... ?

The first is cognitively meaningless. What defines "good"?
I believe the second to be true (as corrected).

 

[Pete in Panama]

Or your understanding is defective.

many things are possible, but what is certain is that my impression is as described. Why I got that impression is the subject of unending conjecture and I'm amazed that you have time for such speculation. I don't.

You asked ...


The first component in fact asks two questions ...

1. Do you agree that somethings are inherently good ... ?
2. [Do you agree that] some statements are clearly true ... ?

The first is cognitively meaningless. What defines "good"?

fwiw, please understand that there are a LOT of folks that see some things as good and they see other things as bad. Cognition does not seem to be relevant to them. Like, I could go up to people, smash their big toe w/ a hammer, and virtually every single one of them would say THAT'S BAD!!! If I could magically undo it and give them a $million, most probably every single one of them would say THAT'S GOOD!!!

You however would say good and bad were cognitively meaningless. Interesting.

I believe the second to be true (as corrected).

Sounds like you're saying that you believe in truth and falsehood while you deny that there is good and bad. My take on this is that we're getting bogged down in meaningless word games.

cheers

 

[Quintessence]

Say want you want about the scientific method, but the scientific community works with absolute truth.

So what you're saying is that the sciences are a form authoritarian dogmatism? You either accept the incontrovertible truth of One True Science (aka, the "absolute truth") or you are rejected by the scientific community? How long have you worked as a scientist, if I may ask?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

... please understand that there are a LOT of folks that see some things as good and they see other things as bad.

Really? I guess I'll have to rethink all of this.

Sounds like you're saying that you believe in truth and falsehood while you deny that there is good and bad. My take on this is that we're getting bogged down in meaningless word games.

I believe that it is true that gravitation attraction between two bodies is a function of their combined mass and the distance between them. I think it meaningless to categorize that relationship as good or bad.