INDISPUTABLE Rational Proof That God Exists (Or Existed)

[McBell]

Spirit first?...or substance?

Until such time as you can define "spirit" in a meaningful way, the question is pointless.

 

[Willamena]

Spirit first?...or substance?

Substantial spirit?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Whether God is an all-knowing being, or a thoughtless being non-existent anymore, something had to start the first thing, the first science, and science cannot and will not ever explain the start of science, just as something cannot create itself. Before anything, there was nothing. Something transcendent, existent before anything, had to create the first something. That, we call God.

Obviously God is a woman.

 

[Willamena]

Obviously God is a woman.

Get used to it.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Get used to it.

She's proven to be moody and a very bad driver.:yes:

 

[Willamena]

She's proven to be moody and a very bad driver.:yes:

It's not a driver, it's a 9 Iron.

 

[nash8]

Until such time as you can define "spirit" in a meaningful way, the question is pointless.

Photons

 

[Repox]

Not saying I don't believe in God.

But A spiritual being is the most logical answer doesn't mean much. What does spirit even mean?

That's the first part you'd have to define what the word spirit means. Then you'd have to explain how spirit could engage itself with this Universe, and where that spirit resides. Is it in the Universe? Outside of the Universe and if it is outside of it, should we consider that being part of another Universe? Or is that being it's own Universe, is it part of another Universe, is it part of a different type of space?

Or is it not space, if there is no space, how can that being act? If there is no time? How can it act? There is no causality for such a being it just simply is.

You ask interesting questions.

Heavenly Spirits, Angels and God, have no material qualities, they are eternal with no life-spans. They never age, as if frozen in time. Because they were created to be with God, they have a translucent beauty that is beyond our understanding. Being a direct creation of God, they reflect God's glory, beauty, and holiness. They are spherical in form, just as God is spherical. In the presence of humans, they have forms compatible with humans. They reside in heaven and are only in our world as servants of God to make reports.

They're in another dimension of reality. Their world is not connected with our universe. Imagine being in heaven after God created the universe. As an Angel you would not see it because the universe is not in heaven. However, if God's commands, in a micro-second, you would be in the universe at a specific place. On earth, an Angel can move with lightening speed observing what is happening, never being observed by humans, or any other creature. It is difficult to explain, but apparently, Angels can accelerate in time, thinking and moving much faster than humans. According to human perception, they can be in several places in the blink of an eye. In biblical times Angels revealed themselves to humans, but apparently, they don't do that any longer. I think it has to do with God's relationship with His chosen people.

It would appear that Angels are obedient servants of God. However, they are not robots, they "willfully" obey God. I believe Angels are several trillion years old, each one according to its birth order.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

You ask interesting questions.

Heavenly Spirits, Angels and God, have no material qualities, they are eternal with no life-spans. They never age, as if frozen in time. Because they were created to be with God, they have a translucent beauty that is beyond our understanding. Being a direct creation of God, they reflect God's glory, beauty, and holiness. They are spherical in form, just as God is spherical. In the presence of humans, they have forms compatible with humans. They reside in heaven and are only in our world as servants of God to make reports.

They're in another dimension of reality. Their world is not connected with our universe. Imagine being in heaven after God created the universe. As an Angel you would not see it because the universe is not in heaven. However, if God's commands, in a micro-second, you would be in the universe at a specific place. On earth, an Angel can move with lightening speed observing what is happening, never being observed by humans, or any other creature. It is difficult to explain, but apparently, Angels can accelerate in time, thinking and moving much faster than humans. According to human perception, they can be in several places in the blink of an eye. In biblical times Angels revealed themselves to humans, but apparently, they don't do that any longer. I think it has to do with God's relationship with His chosen people.

It would appear that Angels are obedient servants of God. However, they are not robots, they "willfully" obey God. I believe Angels are several trillion years old, each one according to its birth order.

You realize that everything you've written here is pure fiction, and much of it incoherent at that, right? No material qualities (such as mass), and yet they are "spherical in shape"? Move with lightning speed? (I suppose they have laser weapons and jetpacks as well )

No offense but... wtf are you on? (and even if this wasn't just a bunch of pseudo-poetic nonsense, how could you ever know such things in the first place?)

 

[Agnostic75]

I am neutral on what Behe has claimed.

That is fine since one study showed that in the U.S., about 99.86% of experts accept common descent, which would include the majority of Christian experts. The same study showed that some of the people who are most likely to be creationists are women, people who have less education, and people who have lower incomes.

Of the relative handful of creationist experts, a good percentage of them also accept the global flood theory, and/or the young earth theory, so their scientific objectivity is questionable.

The book of Genesis is not a reliable source of historical information. Since no one should take creationism, the global flood theory, or the regional flood theory literally, there are not any good reasons why anyone should take the story of Adam and Eve literally. If you wish, I will explain why the regional flood theory is not valid. A regional flood could have happened, but that theory is questionable for some textual reasons in the book of Genesis.

The supposed fall of man in the Garden of Eden could not account for animals killing each other since animals killed each other long before humans existed.

 

[mystic64]

Whether God is an all-knowing being, or a thoughtless being non-existent anymore, something had to start the first thing, the first science, and science cannot and will not ever explain the start of science, just as something cannot create itself. Before anything, there was nothing. Something transcendent, existent before anything, had to create the first something. That, we call God.

In my opinion, the only way that God can be proven to exist is for science to measure God's energy signature when God seems to be active or present with that energy signature being associated with unexplainable abilities. All living things have a unique energy signature and if God is a living thing, then God will have one also. Until that happens God's existence will have to be taken on "faith" which is the foundation of all religions that are monotheist.

 

[McBell]

... which is the foundation of all religions that are monotheist.

Seems to me faith is the foundation of every religion.

 

[Cephus]

Therefore, we must discount the Bible, Jews, and Israel. It was all because some craze men had hallucinations. Then, there is Judaism based on prophets experiences. Wow, there were a lot of crazy people in the world back then. Even today, we have all those crazy Jews in Israel. What a crazy world!

The fact is, and we do know this without question, that ancient people were not writing down histories, they were writing down mythologies. The ancient Egyptians, the ancient Hebrews, the ancient Sumerians, heck, we can even go into more modern times with Herodotus, who we know mixed observations, myths, stories, beliefs, etc. in his writings. He wasn't trying to write an accurate history of things that actually happened, any more than the ancient Hebrews were. It was myth. Pure history was totally unknown back then. People need to stop pretending that because they wrote it down, it had to have happened.

So yes, we do have to discount the Bible as yet another book of mythology, just like we discount the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

 

[Repox]

The fact is, and we do know this without question, that ancient people were not writing down histories, they were writing down mythologies. The ancient Egyptians, the ancient Hebrews, the ancient Sumerians, heck, we can even go into more modern times with Herodotus, who we know mixed observations, myths, stories, beliefs, etc. in his writings. He wasn't trying to write an accurate history of things that actually happened, any more than the ancient Hebrews were. It was myth. Pure history was totally unknown back then. People need to stop pretending that because they wrote it down, it had to have happened.

So yes, we do have to discount the Bible as yet another book of mythology, just like we discount the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

I've heard those arguments about mythology and history. We do however have archeological evidence for Jewish settlements, like Samaria, Shechem, Shiloh, Bethel, and Hebron, and other settlements, villages and small cities. And there is enough archeological evidence to confirm the existence of both Northern Israel and Judea. Sorry, you can't use the broad stroke of mythology to dismiss the Bible.

If you like I can post references for those archeological studies.

 

[Repox]

You realize that everything you've written here is pure fiction, and much of it incoherent at that, right? No material qualities (such as mass), and yet they are "spherical in shape"? Move with lightning speed? (I suppose they have laser weapons and jetpacks as well )

No offense but... wtf are you on? (and even if this wasn't just a bunch of pseudo-poetic nonsense, how could you ever know such things in the first place?)

Oh, that is too bad, I thought you may be convinced. I suppose it is the way out nature of my posting, kind of like science fiction. However, it could also be the real thing. The big problem is there is no evidence. :shout:bow:

 

[SkepticThinker]

And you are telling me that it takes millions upon millions of years for macroevolution to take place, so that no one that is alive today will ever witness these voodoo changes occur. You don't see the the scam invovled in that? You are basically saying "We've never seen it happen, and no one alive will ever see it happen, but...it happens" Please.

I said it takes more time for what you call macroevolution to occur than it does for microevolution to occur. I said macroevolution is a lot of microevolution. I never once said it isn’t observable, or demonstrable or testable. In fact, I explained it in 4 or 5 different ways to help you understand it. And you’re still saying the exact same thing you were saying at the beginning of this discussion, and what you are saying is something that nobody who understands evolution would ever claim about it. There is no voodoo involved in any sense of the word. The observations and tests have been done and they confirm evolution.

And THAT’S why I feel like I’m banging my head against the well. For the second time.

Maybe take some time on your own to look into it, so you can understand it better. Maybe read the links I provided.

All I know is dogs produce dogs, cats produce cats, fish produce fish. To believe anything other than that is pure religious speculation which I reject on the same grounds that you reject my religion.

What I know is that you don’t understand evolution. I know that evolution has absolutely nothing to do with religious speculation. I know that the theory of evolution is the result of a very rigid discipline called the scientific method, which has never let us down and in fact, has provided us with all the knowledge we currently possess about our world and our universe. The reason we know anything has to do with the results we get from following the scientific method. And as I said, if you look at all the evidence from every single field of science, all of it, every bit of it, converges on the same conclusion: and that is that evolution is a fact of life. Biology doesn’t even work without it. That makes it one of the most (if not the very most) well supported scientific theories in existence.

The answer I will give you is the same answer you will give me if I asked you have you ever seen a dog produce a non-dog.

Enough with the cop out answers.

Evolution is well supported based on what scientific observation??

Based on all the data obtained from every single field of science. They all point to the same thing, and that is evolution. Biology, geology, physics, genetics, paleontology, chemistry, anthropology, zoology, botany, paleobotany, on and on and on – they all provide evidence for the theory of evolution.

No, here is the facts; dogs produce dogs, cats produce cats, fish produce fish. Why would you believe that millions of years ago, animals would BEGIN to start producing different kind of animals? You cannot base this belief on anything that is observed today, so what are you basing this belief on?

We already agree that every single animal will produce an animal that is the same as itself. That is not in dispute. I’ve explained evolution to you so many different ways now, and here you are just saying the same thing you’ve been saying since the beginning. It’s clear you’re not taking anything in here, because nobody is saying what you seem to think they are saying. I’m not sure how, at this point, you can still be repeating this bogus claim.

This is observable science. I’m sorry you’ve never taken the time to see the evidence for yourself, but I assure you there is a ton of it. Otherwise, evolution would not be considered the robust scientific theory that it is. In fact, it would not even exist.

Evolution is a fact of life.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Even though it is not a scientific site, this Wikipedia article on "speciation" does provide links to science sites: Speciation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The bottom line is that evolution has been observed creating new species even over relatively short periods of time in some cases.

Secondly, what supposedly would stop speciation from creating new "kinds"? Certainly not the d.n.a. since the vast majority of geneticists well understand how evolution works and, therefore, have no trouble accepting it.

The reality is that those who oppose the evolution of "kinds" do so, not for scientific reasons, but for religious reasons.

Thank you.

 

[SkepticThinker]

The only record we have of reality is in that record. A record that shows no meaningful development is inconsistent with the theory. Again are you having a debate about terminology or reality. Cases depend on evidence. A case without evidence or contrary evidence is not much of a case.

.

Like I said, that is false. And when I said that, you told me you didn't say that. And then you said it here again.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Therefore, we must discount the Bible, Jews, and Israel. It was all because some craze men had hallucinations. Then, there is Judaism based on prophets experiences. Wow, there were a lot of crazy people in the world back then. Even today, we have all those crazy Jews in Israel. What a crazy world!

There are a lot of crazy people in the world now.

 

[SkepticThinker]

You ask interesting questions.

Heavenly Spirits, Angels and God, have no material qualities, they are eternal with no life-spans. They never age, as if frozen in time. Because they were created to be with God, they have a translucent beauty that is beyond our understanding. Being a direct creation of God, they reflect God's glory, beauty, and holiness. They are spherical in form, just as God is spherical. In the presence of humans, they have forms compatible with humans. They reside in heaven and are only in our world as servants of God to make reports.

They're in another dimension of reality. Their world is not connected with our universe. Imagine being in heaven after God created the universe. As an Angel you would not see it because the universe is not in heaven. However, if God's commands, in a micro-second, you would be in the universe at a specific place. On earth, an Angel can move with lightening speed observing what is happening, never being observed by humans, or any other creature. It is difficult to explain, but apparently, Angels can accelerate in time, thinking and moving much faster than humans. According to human perception, they can be in several places in the blink of an eye. In biblical times Angels revealed themselves to humans, but apparently, they don't do that any longer. I think it has to do with God's relationship with His chosen people.

It would appear that Angels are obedient servants of God. However, they are not robots, they "willfully" obey God. I believe Angels are several trillion years old, each one according to its birth order.

The problem is, these are just unjustified claims, pulled out of thin air. There is no objective evidence whatsoever for the existence of any god, yet here you are, and I'm not picking on you alone, arbitrarily assigning characteristics to this unknown and unseen entity. That's a massive problem. You posit the existence of this entity without any evidence to support it, then you start to describe what this entity is like, it's wants and desires and all that, still with nothing demonstrable to go on, and you expect people to take you at your word for what this unverifiable thing actually is like?

Seriously?

Just because you want this thing to be real doesn't mean this thing is real and you have to recognize that creating a list of unwarranted characteristics because they make you feel good, or going by a bunch of bronze-age primitives who did exactly the same thing and wrote it down, is just not a rational way of living one's life.

:yes: