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INDISPUTABLE Rational Proof That God Exists (Or Existed)

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
1robin said:
The Greeks were terrible scientists.

On the contrary, they were way beyond ancient Hebrews in science, art, philosophy, and literature.

Some ancient Greek Stoics who lived before Christ strongly opposed slavery about 2,000 years before the majority of Christians opposed it in the U.S.

Consider the following:

Wikipedia said:
Archimedes of Syracuse was a Greek mathematician, physicist, engineer, inventor, and astronomer. Although few details of his life are known, he is regarded as one of the leading scientists in classical antiquity. Among his advances in physics are the foundations of hydrostatics, statics and an explanation of the principle of the lever. He is credited with designing innovative machines, including siege engines and the screw pump that bears his name. Modern experiments have tested claims that Archimedes designed machines capable of lifting attacking ships out of the water and setting ships on fire using an array of mirrors.

Archimedes is generally considered to be the greatest mathematician of antiquity and one of the greatest of all time.

What is even more amazing is that Archimedes lived before Christ.

Of course, any reputable philosopher knows that there is not a necessary correlation between the achievements of any person, or group of people, and the truth, so there was no reason for you to mention that some Christians were great scientists. Many obvious secular factors are involved with achievements in science, art, philosophy, and literature.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
I have argued vehemently that only some evolutionists claimed evolution was a fact and was opposed and assured that they only claim it a theory when it suited the evolutionists I was speaking with. Are you now claiming that most of them would claim macroevolution is a certain fact. If so I have won at least 50% of my arguments with evolutionists on that basis alone. Actually science can't be proven by science according to many scientists. Though I never really grasped what they meant, maybe it is based on Gödel’s incompleteness concept. Science requires reproducibility and or observability for certainty in general. Even historical claims are judged on probability and almost all never claimed to be certain. If historical claims with even eyewitness testimony are said to be matters of faith on what grounds are a series of bones, etc.... conclusive proof?


Evolution is a fact. Biology, genetics, geology, paleontology, etc. don’t work without it.

If you’re talking about the Bible, those are not eyewitness claims. (Not to mention the fact that eyewitness claims aren’t as reliable as you seem to think, but that’s irrelevant in regards to the Bible anyway.)

Try typing in "problems with evolutionary theory" and you will see 16 million claims of deficiency. Your claims rest on the proposition that all 16 million are invalid. Mine rest on the fact that at least one is valid.

You haven’t seemed to grasp the fact yet, that anyone can say anything on the internet. If you want good, solid, scientific material, you need to consult academic sites and scientific publications rather than just some random person’s religious or non-religious words on a website. So far, the claims you’ve provided against macroevolution have turned out to be easily refuted.

You see no deficiency in claiming that cows turned into whales (or is the other way around) without a single transition in that chain ever observed?

Without a single transition ever observed? What are you talking about?

Cows didn’t evolve into whales or vice versa. They share a common ancestor with whales, making them more like cousins than direct descendants. I don’t know what impression you’re under here, but scientists don’t just grab 2 fossils, deduce that they look similar and then simply declare that they are ancestors to each other. Rather they compare homology, genetics and DNA (molecular systematics), protein structure, morphology, chronology, taxonomy, size, diet, migration patterns, studying relationships to modern living creatures, just to name a few. There’s much more to it than you seem to think.

Are you saying that there is no deficiency of in claiming Dinosaurs turned into birds even though not a single dinosaur was seen to turn into anything by a scientist? I can only say I disagree.


Putting aside all other evidence for bird to dinosaur evolution for the moment, what do you make of the various dinosaur fossils with feather impressions around them that have been discovered around the world?

I see an entire theory based on the assumption that life did what no life has been observed doing (coming from non-life) or that even biological precepts say can't even occur a problem, do you not?


Evolution doesn’t claim this, so you don’t have to worry about it (and of course this ignores entire conversations we’ve had before on this very subject.) Abiogenesis and evolution are different things.

I was saying that we can't even get to the point where evolution could even occur within natural processes alone. Not which of the non-natural theories is correct. You took it farther that I ever intended and into areas it was not given to comment upon.


What you’re saying is incorrect then.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
As far as anyone can tell. The same laws and principles I gave apply to every thing in nature. Qualifying what you meant does not change anything I said.
That is an application of that theory that produces logical incoherence. It is also only applicable to the natural. A supernatural phenomena would be able to create energy, and the evidence it was created is consistent with observed reality in more than the following ways. If energy has always existed then the total fluctuations in the past history of that energy is infinite. How did time traverse an infinite past number of fluctuations to arrive at the one we currently are experiencing. It can't. I have a math degree and any actual infinite results in logical impossibilities. It only partially exists harmoniously as an abstract concept. That is not what the most dominant cosmological model of the universe says occurred. It says that any single universe on average expanding is not eternal nor is it cyclical. Also thermodynamics (called the most immutable laws in nature by Einstein) would have resulted in a universal and even deposit of energy and matter infinitely long ago. Even inventing a cyclical universe will not help. If the universe is infinitely old then why does it look very young? Are you familiar with all the physics that I am briefly mentioning? I need to know how much detail to get into. The theory that accounts for the most observable evidence is something beyond the natural created nature a finite time ago and it has functioned by law in general with a few exceptions since then.
I have never seen a post from you before so calm down. I do not read every comment someone has applied to their posts as most are silly. It should be assumed that the conflict between your name and your "religion" would be an issue in a theological forum and allowed for by more than a few words at the bottom.
Who says the universe looks very young??
 

I.S.L.A.M617

Illuminatus
The credibility of evolution is no longer up for debate in the scientific community. Even the former king of lies himself, Pope John Paul II, said evolution is no longer a hypothesis. The fundamentalists just have to learn when it's time to call it quits. At this point anyone that argues against the facts if evolution is just being willfully ignorant.
 

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
1robin said:
Perhaps give me the natural explanation for what created nature and then you might be on the right track.


The fact that there are currently no natural explanations for what created nature does not necessarily mean that there are not any.

Even if a God exists, you have not reasonably proven that he is the God of the Bible.

1robin said:
What created the universe does not appear to be a physics question.

But you told SkepticThinker the following:

"Are you familiar with all the physics that I am briefly mentioning?"

If the creation of nature is not a physics question, why are you discussing physics?
 

Enai de a lukal

Well-Known Member
There is nothing false in my original statement: I agree. My argument was not that it has not been observed there for it can't be true. It was that it can't be observed so faith has some role in that claim that it is true even if it actually is.
That statement is logically sound. Faith is involved.

Claiming that a statement is sound doesn't make it so- if only, eh? Again, that something is not directly observable does not entail that it can only be posited via faith in the relevant sense. I can't observe my digestive system, but my belief that it exists is not held on faith- its existence, while not itself observable, entails observable effects.

I assign it with no broader meaning that it is traditionally used in.


Yes- your usage is something like "belief in something that is not itself directly observable". It would render a majority of our beliefs and knowledge as faith- destroying the usual meaning of the word.

I have argued vehemently that only some evolutionists claimed evolution was a fact and was opposed and assured that they only claim it a theory when it suited the evolutionists I was speaking with. Are you now claiming that most of them would claim macroevolution is a certain fact.


You would probably do well to review the usage of the terms "fact" and "theory" in the context of the scientific method- these are technical terms that don't mean the same thing they do colloquially. In science, a "theory" is a hypothesis which has been confirmed by observed facts, or, in other words, one that is true.

Actually science can't be proven by science according to many scientists.
Science cannot be strictly proven at all, and that's a demonstrable and uncontroversial fact. Science is inductive. Proof pertains to deductive reasoning, i.e. mathematics and logic.

You may want to review the difference between inductive and deductive reasoning (google is your friend here).

 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
On the contrary, they were way beyond ancient Hebrews in science, art, philosophy, and literature.
Even if true why would that matter? I compared them to Christian scientists not Hebrew scientists.

Some ancient Greek Stoics who lived before Christ strongly opposed slavery about 2,000 years before the majority of Christians opposed it in the U.S.
Is that a scientific issue? and since I did not compare Hebrew scientists to any one is it applicable?

Consider the following:



What is even more amazing is that Archimedes lived before Christ.
There is nothing amazing about Archimedes relationship in time with Christ. There was very advanced math and science in many cultures before Christ lived.


Of course, any reputable philosopher knows that there is not a necessary correlation between the achievements of any person, or group of people, and the truth, so there was no reason for you to mention that some Christians were great scientists. Many obvious secular factors are involved with achievements in science, art, philosophy, and literature.
There is no argument even theoretically possible to counter one that having access to the true architect of the universe (God) would not affect positively the scientific knowledge of that group of people. However I think I was responding to an argument not making one.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
A "supernatural" entity can do anything you say it does for the sake of your argument... There' a reason rational people don't believe in the supernatural...
I am not left with that option. I am stuck with what very ignorant men said defined the Biblical God 4000 years ago. Men who knew nothing about cosmology or philosophy gave the exact description of what Philosophers say must define what created cosmology as we know it today. I do not have the luxury of using a generic "supernatural" to defend anything. I am required to use God as he revealed himself and he got very very specific.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Even if true why would that matter? I compared them to Christian scientists not Hebrew scientists.

Is that a scientific issue? and since I did not compare Hebrew scientists to any one is it applicable?


There is nothing amazing about Archimedes relationship in time with Christ. There was very advanced math and science in many cultures before Christ lived.


There is no argument even theoretically possible to counter one that having access to the true architect of the universe (God) would not affect positively the scientific knowledge of that group of people. However I think I was responding to an argument not making one.
What? That's a strange claim. Do atheistic scientists have this access you speak of? If not, how are they able to produce scientific results of any kind?
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
This is all based on what? Your say-so?
No it is based on about the most simplistic form of common sense possible. The super in supernatural means "outside nature", "beyond nature", "not nature". Lets try some definitions and synonyms to simplify what probably can't be more simple.


Definition- (of a manifestation or event) Attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.

Synonyms- preternatural, non-natural, unearthly, weird, miraculous.

On what basis do you claim that the laws that bind the natural do not bind the natural is an incorrect or not a self obvious statement. The very synonym (Miraculous) is defined as a suspension of natural law. How does natural law bind what is an example of a suspension of it? WOW!!!
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Well of course it is not a physics question,
Then why do you keep giving what the physics community has "officially claimed".


but you have discussed lots of physics in this thread.
I have mentioned very little physics in this whole forum. The little I have used is in it's proper context (Unlike your posting what physicist claim about the supernatural). This is the last time I am explaining this. I used physics to clarify what reality is. Unfortunately modern science has a penchant for fantasy. So I must use the claims of cosmologists (mainly) and physicists on occasion to clarify what is the current status of the most reliable model of reality available. It is perfectly capable and applicable for this. Once that is done I look at solutions or explanations for that reality. For instance I use cosmology and physics to justify a single finite universe. Then I use theology and philosophy to posit explanations or to see if the Bible is consistent. You may if you wish contest either theology or physics but claims that I misapplied either are absurd. This must be at least the fourth time I have explained this.


In addition, the current lack of enough evidence for what created nature does not mean that no such evidence exists.
Then please post what natural evidence exists for the creation of the natural. It is impossible to answer that but you set yourself up to do so.


A hundred years from now, or a thousand years from now, such evidence might exist. The search for truth does not have a time limit. We do not even fully know how the simplest cell functions, and how to cure the common cold.
I do not have a thousand years to evaluate the claims of the Bible. I have to do the best I can with what I have available. Science being infinitely less important can be waited of forever if you desire and are eternal.


Please post whatever kinds of evidence that you wish that you believe reasonably proves that a God inspired the Bible.
I will start with what no one has ever effectively challenged and it will serve as a good lesson in how these issues are validated or examined. The scholar that wrote the paper may very well be histories greatest expert on testimony and evidence. He is certainly at the very pinnacle of the field.
law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/jesus/greenleaf.html
Please reply to my post #1347.
If you will review that many posts I have to complete each day you will quickly see that I can't possibly even get to them all. I am one of the very few here that stand for orthodox Christianity for some reason and receive most of the Bible critics posts in the threads I use. I also have to test F-15 avionics components as I am able. I just do not have time to get to everything currently.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
No it is based on about the most simplistic form of common sense possible. The super in supernatural means "outside nature", "beyond nature", "not nature". Lets try some definitions and synonyms to simplify what probably can't be more simple.


Definition- (of a manifestation or event) Attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.

Synonyms- preternatural, non-natural, unearthly, weird, miraculous.

On what basis do you claim that the laws that bind the natural do not bind the natural is an incorrect or not a self obvious statement. The very synonym (Miraculous) is defined as a suspension of natural law. How does natural law bind what is an example of a suspension of it? WOW!!!

I took issue with the entire post you made, for a number of reasons.

1) We don’t even know that the supernatural world you speak of exists in the first place. So we really can’t say much of anything about it at all. You however, have drawn all kinds of conclusions about it, based on … I don’t know what. If we can’t observe or test the supernatural world you think exists, then we really have nothing to say about it.
2) We don’t know that any god(s) exist, never mind the one you believe in. So again, we can’t say much of anything about its characteristics or its place within any world. But again, this doesn’t stop you from drawing all kinds of assumptions and conclusions about it.
3) We don’t know that your god isn’t subject to the conservation of energy or anything else, for that matter.

This entire post is just an exercise in supposition.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
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Do you play the lotto much? Despite the incredibly small odds of any single person winning, someone still manages to win.
I am so unlucky that I do not gamble in any form. I won't even bet that I will lose. Your claim does not even begin to account for what I said. It is a silly argument as stated but let's pretend it did as you desire for a minute. To get what we have without either something vastly beyond any thing we know of or the supernatural would be the equivalent of the same person winning a lottery with greater odds than all the lotteries on Earth time after time, arguably millions of times over but without question multiple times. Got a game reference that will help with that? When I win every state lottery every year for a hundred years then the metaphor might work. Contingent probability creates appalling numbers from the already absurd almost instantly.


Is the hole designed specifically for the puddle that fills it or does the puddle come to fill it through natural means?
To use this argument you would have to demonstrate any theory at all that makes the universe known to exist a natural necessity and every argument similar to this is dismissed as fast as mentioned in my experience. Do this and that might help a little with the natural but would not even apply or be debated for what created the natural. Water has a natural necessity to fit in a hole if liquid.

The fertility barrier only prevents different species from breeding during the same generation. Evolution takes much longer than a single generation so there is no inconsistency.
I have no capacity, nor do I think much of anyone else would to evaluate what exact impact the fertility barrier has on evolution. My argument was only that it would seem inconsistent with it. I will confess that I have no firm grasp on the effect or impact of this idea.

Considering that every individual human carries about 200 mutations in their 3 billion base pair genome, Barney's math appears a little faulty. And since Barney is actually a medical doctor, not a geneticist, I wouldn't consider him an expert in this field.
Neither of these things shows that his math is faulty. Are you stating that this signature "Geneticist Barney Maddox, 1992 " is a lie? I will state that I disagree with his opening statement that any change is negative, though the rest seems logical. However the fact that the vast majority of genetic mutations are negative and result in destruction is conceded, agreed? I would think this can even be computer simulated.

The discovery of more and more pre-Cambrian life is showing us that changes during the Cambrian period aren't quite as drastic as creationists would like you to believe. The Cambrian appears to be more of a horizon beyond which fossils are less prevalent than a barrier to evolution.
I did not get that idea from creationism. It has as far as I known been a virtual universal concession. I can provide as many quotes as needed from any side within reason.

http://www.fstdt.com/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=94664
The link went to a debate by people like us. Was that intentional?

Yes, it is an example of evolution creating new functions where they didn't exist before.

No, it isn't and this one has been observed unlike 99.9% of evolution. There is a zero probability that an insect will have the exact random mutations necessary to resist a chemical at the instant needed. What happens is that the resistance is already within the insect types genome (maybe recessive etc..) but is active in a few individuals. When sprayed all the rest die off and only those that have active genes to resist the spray survive to breed a population with those genes "selected", "activated" or whatever terminology you wish. No new information was created and only old information was selected for. I only use this to determine to level of education in the topic. It is not an argument that evolution does not occur.


There is no single evolutionary change that separates one species from another which is why it takes so long.
Then how can macro-evolution be an accurate term? Every thing is just one version of the same thing if there are no species distinctions.

Because it takes a very long time. It took 33,000 years to breed wolves into dogs and 9,000 years to domesticate cows. Why do you think new species can arise so quickly?
Dogs have a turn over rate of at least a year. Insects have rates that are a day or only hours. Why have not we ever created a non fly from a fly in those millions of opportunities? Germs may even be faster and I would look there if I was you.

8. A creature with no eye structure at all branching out into many different lines of evolution that all produced eyes by seperate paths is inconsistent with evolution.
Evolution is a blind creator. I have never heard a evolutionist say that if we started over we would have anything identical to what we have. Only engineers intend to solve things the same way. Random mutation should have created as many solutions as problems. 10 (for instance) independent random actions should never produce identical results over and over and over. For that matter why would independent genes select the exact components necessary for our eye and the exact visual cortex and optic nerves necessary to create a whole within the same time frame, and even if managed once it would have had to do the same vastly improbable thing a million times over to explain reality (actually trillions and trillions). Convergent design is not a symptom of random events even if selection is present. It is however a universal element in design. I will give you credit for improving your civility in this post.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Evolution is a blind creator. I have never heard a evolutionist say that if we started over we would have anything identical to what we have. Only engineers intend to solve things the same way. Random mutation should have created as many solutions as problems. 10 (for instance) independent random actions should never produce identical results over and over and over. For that matter why would independent genes select the exact components necessary for our eye and the exact visual cortex and optic nerves necessary to create a whole within the same time frame, and even if managed once it would have had to do the same vastly improbable thing a million times over to explain reality (actually trillions and trillions). Convergent design is not a symptom of random events even if selection is present. It is however a universal element in design. I will give you credit for improving your civility in this post.

Strange you would mention optic developments and evolution in the same paragraph.

Of any portion we are...... the eye is the most sensitive and highly developed.
The documentary I saw was detailed in how such things happen.

Random events are btw.....more predictable than you might think.
The study is now a science unto itself.....called Chaos.

Maybe you've noticed.....
The flight path of the dandelion seed is completely beyond plotting.
However....the results are sure.
More dandelions.
 

ZooGirl02

Well-Known Member
I really don't think the beginning of science is a good way to argue for the existence of God. I would provide some links with better arguments but I am having difficulty finding such links.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
I took issue with the entire post you made, for a number of reasons.

1) We don’t even know that the supernatural world you speak of exists in the first place. So we really can’t say much of anything about it at all. You however, have drawn all kinds of conclusions about it, based on … I don’t know what. If we can’t observe or test the supernatural world you think exists, then we really have nothing to say about it.
2) We don’t know that any god(s) exist, never mind the one you believe in. So again, we can’t say much of anything about its characteristics or its place within any world. But again, this doesn’t stop you from drawing all kinds of assumptions and conclusions about it.
3) We don’t know that your god isn’t subject to the conservation of energy or anything else, for that matter.

This entire post is just an exercise in supposition.
This entire conversation was a response to the claim that what binds the natural also binds the supernatural. My points since then have been the same as yours. There is no way to known and no reason that even hints that what binds the natural also binds the supernatural. I did not give any specific views on how the supernatural operates but the "super" in supernatural separates the concept from the natural and so what binds one not binding the other is a virtual certainty. Where is that post where you wished me to respond to an earlier post of yours? I can't find it.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Strange you would mention optic developments and evolution in the same paragraph.
How is that strange? Is not the eye one of the most debated issues in evolution?

Of any portion we are...... the eye is the most sensitive and highly developed.
The documentary I saw was detailed in how such things happen.
The eye is amazing but in comparison with the brain it is a Lincoln log cabin. The brain is the most sophisticated and complex arrangement of matter in the known universe. Until I know what you are trying to show I will drop this here.


Random events are btw.....more predictable than you might think.
The study is now a science unto itself.....called Chaos.
Chaos theory (I have a math degree) is simple a more detailed look into the causes of things. They do not necessarily become more predictable. None of this however has anything to do with evolution and the eye. Chaos theory would show (though it is not required to see) the chain of causation between ten different branches of evolution that split before a eye existed are al vastly different. On what basis can it be shown all ten (non-intentional) processes should use completely different and independent chains of causation to all arrive at the same very complex solution a hundred million years later. Not to mention even a single creature building a organ as complex as a eye at the same time random processes built the exact optic nerve and the exact visual cortex needed. It might very well happen but it would not seem to in theory.



Maybe you've noticed.....
The flight path of the dandelion seed is completely beyond plotting.
However....the results are sure.
More dandelions.
That is not even true. I would guess that most (and know that many) dandelion seeds do not even germinate. Some are eaten by birds, others land in infertile places, others rot without sprouting. This would not represent evolution even if accurate.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
I really don't think the beginning of science is a good way to argue for the existence of God. I would provide some links with better arguments but I am having difficulty finding such links.
I will not comment on how good it is beyond saying that science is one of the few common grounds people of different view points have. Atheists do not care what doctrines we have. Muslims invented the idea that any verse they do not like is corrupt (whether any evidence exists it is or not). Others think maybe wisdom exist in the Bible but revelation does not. Debates must center on common ground. It is very appropriate to examine which theological texts is most consistent with science as God is the architect of natural law.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
This entire conversation was a response to the claim that what binds the natural also binds the supernatural. My points since then have been the same as yours. There is no way to known and no reason that even hints that what binds the natural also binds the supernatural. I did not give any specific views on how the supernatural operates but the "super" in supernatural separates the concept from the natural and so what binds one not binding the other is a virtual certainty.
Considering we know nothing about this supernatural world you speak of, which at this point is basically just made up, we can't say anything at all about it. We agree on that much. Then why do you go ahead and make all sorts of claims about this supposed world and about your god?

Where is that post where you wished me to respond to an earlier post of yours? I can't find it.

I responded more specifically in the "Is the US a Christian Nation" thread.
 

I.S.L.A.M617

Illuminatus

I took issue with the entire post you made, for a number of reasons.

1) We don’t even know that the supernatural world you speak of exists in the first place. So we really can’t say much of anything about it at all. You however, have drawn all kinds of conclusions about it, based on … I don’t know what. If we can’t observe or test the supernatural world you think exists, then we really have nothing to say about it.
2) We don’t know that any god(s) exist, never mind the one you believe in. So again, we can’t say much of anything about its characteristics or its place within any world. But again, this doesn’t stop you from drawing all kinds of assumptions and conclusions about it.
3) We don’t know that your god isn’t subject to the conservation of energy or anything else, for that matter.

This entire post is just an exercise in supposition.

But when has that ever stopped robin from being right and the rest of us from being idiots? Attributing any qualities that fit your argument to an unseeable, untestable entity that cannot and will never be proven to exist is indeed a valid science...
 
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