INDISPUTABLE Rational Proof That God Exists (Or Existed)

[Thief]

That is either a disturbing poem or a Pink Floyd Lyric.

None the less......as it is.

 

[Agnostic75]

Prove that homosexuality is mandated by genetics.

Prove that homosexuality is mandated by environment.

I have never said, or implied that homosexuals are forced by genetics to engage in same-sex behavior. If free will exists, obviously, any homosexual can practice abstinence if he wants to, but at what cost? That is the main issue, just like stopping smoking cigarettes, or stopping drinking alcohol. Withdrawal from stopping smoking cigarettes, or from stopping drinking alcohol, can be very distressing, so distressing that even many smoking, and drinking addicts who are strongly committed to giving up their addictions find withdrawal symptoms too difficult to bear. It is worth trying to give up smoking, and drinking addictions since they always eventually destroys people's health, but homosexuality does not always eventually destroy homosexuals' health. Heart disease is the leading cause of death for homosexuals, and for heterosexuals. The vast majority of homosexuals will not die from any STD.

Logically, physical and emotional health are best just individually, not collectively. While some homosexuals never give up practicing unsafe sex, other homosexuals never give up practicing safe sex.

Why do many heterosexuals sometimes have sex solely for pleasure. That has to be largely because of genetics. Have you ever had sex entirely for pleasure?

I once asked you if you object to homosexuals who died, and never had any STDs. You said that you do object, but not personally since they did not harm you. Well, as a practical matter, you know that very few homosexuals are going to practice abstinence for the rest of their lives. Surely, many of them will never have any STDs. There are about 7 billion people in the world today. Assuming that 2% of the people in the world are homosexuals, if only 1% of them are monogamous, 1.4 million homosexuals in the world are monogamous, and that does not include promiscuous homosexuals who practice safe sex, and there are plenty of them.

One research study showed that there is a trend towards monogamy in the U.S., and that the biggest increases were among gay men, followed by lesbians.

Please reply to my four previous replies to you.

 

[1robin]

Prove that homosexuality is mandated by environment.

I have never said, or implied that homosexuals are forced by genetics to engage in same-sex behavior. If free will exists, obviously, any homosexual can practice abstinence if he wants to, but at what cost? That is the main issue, just like stopping smoking cigarettes, or stopping drinking alcohol. Withdrawal from stopping smoking cigarettes, or from stopping drinking alcohol, can be very distressing, so distressing that even many smoking, and drinking addicts who are strongly committed to giving up their addictions find withdrawal symptoms too difficult to bear. It is worth trying to give up smoking, and drinking addictions since they always eventually destroys people's health, but homosexuality does not always eventually destroy homosexuals' health. Heart disease is the leading cause of death for homosexuals, and for heterosexuals. The vast majority of homosexuals will not die from any STD.

Logically, physical and emotional health are best just individually, not collectively. While some homosexuals never give up practicing unsafe sex, other homosexuals never give up practicing safe sex.

Why do many heterosexuals sometimes have sex solely for pleasure. That has to be largely because of genetics. Have you ever had sex entirely for pleasure?

I once asked you if you object to homosexuals who died, and never had any STDs. You said that you do object, but not personally since they did not harm you. Well, as a practical matter, you know that very few homosexuals are going to practice abstinence for the rest of their lives. Surely, many of them will never have any STDs. There are about 7 billion people in the world today. Assuming that 2% of the people in the world are homosexuals, if only 1% of them are monogamous, 1.4 million homosexuals in the world are monogamous, and that does not include promiscuous homosexuals who practice safe sex, and there are plenty of them.

One research study showed that there is a trend towards monogamy in the U.S., and that the biggest increases were among gay men, followed by lesbians.

Please reply to my four previous replies to you.

Oh no you don't. You stick this in one of your homosexual threads as per your instructions to me and by the way the burden is yours. I never claimed homosexuality is strictly mandated by the environment.

 

[Agnostic75]

Oh no you don't. You stick this in one of your homosexual threads as per your instructions to me and by the way the burden is yours. I never claimed homosexuality is strictly mandated by the environment.

But you know very well that I believe, as do the majority of experts, that sexual identity is caused by a combination of genetics, and environment. Many heterosexuals sometimes have sex entirely for please. Do you object to that?

Surely may people sometimes have sex entirely for pleasure primarily because of genetics.

The only reason why I have been discussing homosexuality in this thread is because you did, even after you had agreed to only discuss it in relevant threads. I have always wanted to discuss homosexuality only in relevant threads, but months ago, you left the thread on homosexuality at http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...e-have-relationship-other-87.html#post3428269, and started discussing it in other threads.

In order to simplify things, and save both of us a lot of time, I will go to that thread on homosexuality, and summarize what I believe are my best arguments.

Edit: I have just completed five posts in the thread at http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...e-have-relationship-other-87.html#post3430530 starting with my post #863. Please reply to those posts.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

Well one of the attributes of god is that he is un-created and the creator of all things.

That's special for God; unfortunately, God being uncreated violates one of the premises of the argument- that everything has a cause. (WLC's version of the causal argument sidesteps this charge by changing the premise to "everything which begins to exist has a cause")

Logic does say that there has to be something that is eternal because something had to came to existence.

Logic says no such thing. There could be an infinite chain of finite (not eternal) things, going back indefinitely, such that there is no "first thing", and nothing that is eternal.

This is a possibility, and a very intuitively plausible one at that. (certianly far more plausible than that some uncreated and non-existent existant caused everything to come to be ex nihilo)

 

[Enai de a lukal]

Oh wow, didn't notice that was on the first of 159 pages... Oops!
***

the majority of experts, that sexual identity is caused by a combination of genetics, and environment.

Indeed. Of course, this excludes that homosexuality is a matter of choice.

And robin1, I'm not sure what exactly you want me to repost, aside from the fact that there's research suggesting that homosexuality's evolutionary/adaptive function is to safeguard against overpopulation (such as when resources become scarce).

 

[SkepticThinker]

Saying that sex is pleasurable is not to say it always is, nor that it's pleasurable aspects (even assuming evolution played Mr. Wizard here and created it that way) are all legitimate or morally good. What feels Good but is destructive is apparently also created by evolution for the opposite reason as in the case you give. Did evolution make heroine feel good or people who enjoy pain in others, that way? No moral judgment can follow from the way something feels even if evolution can explain all those I mentioned or just the good ones as most atheists allow. Even if everything you said was true since Humans and animals can't reproduce then it will not explain that.

The reason why ingesting heroin brings us pleasure is due to the fact that we have opioid receptors in our brains. The reason we have these is due to our common ancestry with all other life on the planet, including plants.

 

[SkepticThinker]

1. Homosexuality massively increases suffering and adds billions in costs even to those who do not practice it. That is or should be what determines right and wrong for secular people. It is arbitrary but still the best you can do without God. This one is like the prime directive that everything else relates to.

Prove it.

 

[SkepticThinker]

2. The practice does not have any corroborating gain associated with it that would even hint at justifying it's practice as "good", "moral", or "ok".
.

How do you know?

How about personal happiness in the only life we're likely to get?

 

[SkepticThinker]

I trust your sources even less than you trust mine on this issue. However that is not the main reason. Proof is always better than data and claims alone. It should exist in this case if the claims about the data were accurate. There is no reason to resist posting it unless it does not exist.

My sources are people who study this stuff for a living. People who produce scientific and empirical studies with testable results. Why you don't accept any of it, is beyond me, but I feel like it has something to do with your personal feelings about homosexuals and homosexuality clouding your judgment.

You on the other hand, rely on sources who don't produce scientific or empirical studies, don't accept said empirical studies, have absolutely no training in any relevant field of science and carry out unregulated and untested "therapy" methods on unwitting victims.

Hmmm, which source sounds more reliable?

 

[1robin]

The reason why ingesting heroin brings us pleasure is due to the fact that we have opioid receptors in our brains. The reason we have these is due to our common ancestry with all other life on the planet, including plants.

That was not the effectual part of the post. I know why drugs feel good.

 

[1robin]

Prove it.

I already have. I even think old Agnostic would tell you I have as I did it in the thread we began the discussion in and they simply grant it at this point (unless they are doing so to throw me off).
I will give you the link if you want but I have to look it up.

 

[Agnostic75]

Oh no you don't. You stick this in one of your homosexual threads as per your instructions to me and by the way the burden is yours. I never claimed homosexuality is strictly mandated by the environment.

But you know very well that I believe, as do the majority of experts, that sexual identity is caused by a combination of genetics, and environment.

Many heterosexuals sometimes have sex entirely for please. Do you object to that? Surely may people sometimes have sex entirely for pleasure primarily because of genetics.

The only reason why I have been discussing homosexuality in this thread is because you did, even after you had agreed to only discuss it in relevant threads. I have always wanted to discuss homosexuality only in relevant threads, but months ago, you left the thread on homosexuality at http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...e-have-relationship-other-87.html#post3428269, and started discussing it in other threads.

In order to simplify things, and save both of us a lot of time, I will go to that thread on homosexuality, and summarize what I believe are my best arguments.

Edit: I have just completed five posts in the thread at http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...e-have-relationship-other-87.html#post3430530 starting with my post #863. Please reply to those posts.

 

[eelpc]

Whether God is an all-knowing being, or a thoughtless being non-existent anymore, something had to start the first thing, the first science, and science cannot and will not ever explain the start of science, just as something cannot create itself. Before anything, there was nothing. Something transcendent, existent before anything, had to create the first something. That, we call God.

Billions of years ago many claim it was a “Big Bang” black hole type of thing that created the Universe. My theory is that before you could have that something else had to exist. It is not for us on this third rock from the sun to ever know. Einstein said if the world was solid sand the universe as we know it would be like a grain of that sand. Everything we know has a beginning and ending. If god was first where did he come from? It all had to start somewhere and it is not for us to know.

 

[1robin]

How do you know?

How about personal happiness in the only life we're likely to get?

You must have missed the words justifying and corroborating. The good has to at least theoretically equal the billions in increased costs in health care and the thousands that die based on the increase in STD's transmission. I also keep forgetting about the increase in male on male rectal problems that are not STD related. Half the reason I hate this subject is to even think in a detailed way makes me sick concerning the effects of this practice. Most of it is simply disgusting.

 

[1robin]

My sources are people who study this stuff for a living. People who produce scientific and empirical studies with testable results. Why you don't accept any of it, is beyond me, but I feel like it has something to do with your personal feelings about homosexuals and homosexuality clouding your judgment.

I can't help it. I knew and expect that you will use my mistrust as a point about my being bias. Still won't change the fact that anything that is a political hot button I just can't trust studies on it. Especially something studied for such a short period of time. However as I said I gave you a way, that should exist if your studies are true, that I can't not trust. Provide it or let this one aspect drop as your complaints will not change my mind.

You on the other hand, rely on sources who don't produce scientific or empirical studies, don't accept said empirical studies, have absolutely no training in any relevant field of science and carry out unregulated and untested "therapy" methods on unwitting victims.

The only source needed for my claims came from the CDC and did not involve interpretation of data that allows speculation to be claimed as fact.

Hmmm, which source sounds more reliable?

Mine, by far. It is simple numbers. It is also perfectly simplistic common sense.

 

[1robin]

Agnostic and Skeptic thinker. ​

I was told by Agnostic I can't discuss homosexuality in threads not relevant to it. I have acted consistently with that and as it suites me intend to do so in the future. Skeptic you were not involved in that so I replied to you but from here on in any homosexual debates I engage in will be in the men relationship with men thread. I swear just typing that makes me cringe every time.

 

[Agnostic75]

Agnostic and Skeptic thinker.

I was told by Agnostic I can't discuss homosexuality in threads not relevant to it. I have acted consistently with that and as it suites my intent to do so in the future. Skeptic you were not involved in that so I replied to you but from here on in any homosexual debates I engage in will be in the men relationship with men thread.

Very good, I just completed five posts in that thread, starting with my post #863. Please reply to them. I assume that you will spend very little time at that thread after you have read my five most recent posts.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I already have. I even think old Agnostic would tell you I have as I did it in the thread we began the discussion in and they simply grant it at this point (unless they are doing so to throw me off).

I will give you the link if you want but I have to look it up.

I have never seen you anywhere prove or provide evidence for your assertion that homosexuals cost taxpayers billions of dollars in costs. And I’ve never seen you anywhere prove or provide evidence for your assertion that homosexuals massively increase suffering toward those who do not practice it.

I’ve seen you assert over and over that homosexuality is not much more than a practice someone chooses to partake in. And I’ve never seen you acknowledge that our sexual identity is innate.

 

[SkepticThinker]

You must have missed the words justifying and corroborating. The good has to at least theoretically equal the billions in increased costs in health care and the thousands that die based on the increase in STD's transmission.

The point is, just because you can't think of a good reason, doesn't mean there isn't one.

I also keep forgetting about the increase in male on male rectal problems that are not STD related. Half the reason I hate this subject is to even think in a detailed way makes me sick concerning the effects of this practice. Most of it is simply disgusting.

I don't really care how icky you think homosexuality is, and I doubt homosexuals care either. Maybe they think the sex you engage in is icky. Do you care?