Infallibility

[TransmutingSoul]

So happy to see you again Vinayaka.

I’ve been in and out of hospital, 9 days on one stay and they can’t cure me so I’m just going to continue to live and be happy.

But it’s great to be back here!

Great to have you back. Prayers you way David. I am so happy we met

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That's the only attitude one can have, in my view, under the circumstances, until you're totally bedridden. People who wallow in self-pity only make it worse for themselves, and loved ones around them. I hope I am able to have similar upbeat outlook when the time comes to leave this bag of bones behind for awhile.

I was moving about 20 wheelbarrows full of dirt a day most of the summer, but finally the back sort of gave out. So now I'm recuperating.

Ha Ha, exactly what I am doing at the moment. Digging footings 550x550x900 in gravel. 21 to do.

It is killing me...ha ha.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

Ha Ha, exactly what I am doing at the moment. Digging footings 550x550x900 in gravel. 21 to do.

It is killing me...ha ha.

Regards Tony

Did a bunch of that for roses last year. Had to use the big metal bar. It was in 'fill'. A small skid steer or backhoe would help, but those things do more harm than good in close to buildings, trees, and such. I need some young friends who appreciate physical work. This work is correcting a wrong from 20 years back. When the temple was built, the landscaper cheated us by putting sod directly over clay, skipping the topsoil part. So I'm removing the top 8 inches to the nearby ravine, then putting in top soil, one 12 cubic metre truck at a time. Takes about 6 weeks per truckload.

 

[Vinayaka]

God loves us whether or not we reciprocate.

He has some very odd ways of expressing it. Banishment to hell, having his so called messengers promote violence or disharmony, ... you know, that sort of thing.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Great to have you back. Prayers you way David. I am so happy we met

Regards Tony

Thanks Tony so are we.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

... And logically, one could prove that almost anything is possible - but that really doesn't prove anything at all. I could prove logically that it was possible for God to have made the sun stand still - all that is required is for God to suspend the laws of universal gravity for a spell and then, by some other means ensure that everything else on earth continued as normal. Logically, if there is an omnipotent God - that would be possible. Wouldn't it?!!

No, first you have to prove God exist. Now, try to prove the Sun can stand still, without your god. Your argument relies on existence of a god, who would do illogical and useless things such as keeping the sun standing still, by breaking the laws of physics which he himself would have established. How would an omnipotent god has to break his own laws of physics to do things? An omnipotent God, would have created the world based on a physical law, with which He can do whatever He wills without having to break His own science laws. You do not seem to have fully read or understood my last post....the argument that Abdulbaha describes, does not rely on existence of a god who breaks his laws of physics to do illogical things. No, wonder you do not believe in God and His manifestations. i also do not believe in such a god and manifestations which you do not believe, if you know what I mean.

 

[loverofhumanity]

He has some very odd ways of expressing it. Banishment to hell, having his so called messengers promote violence or disharmony, ... you know, that sort of thing.

I think we create our own hell not God and it is a state of spiritual bankruptcy of our own choosing. It’s very convenient to blame God in order to shirk responsibility for our own actions but in reality we reap what we sow.

The Messengers only reflect the will and purpose of God to humanity like a pure mirror reflecting the light of the sun. God only teaches love, unity and truth and it’s people who choose to do the opposite.

 

[Vinayaka]

I

The Messengers only reflect the will and purpose of God to humanity like a pure mirror reflecting the light of the sun. God only teaches love, unity and truth and it’s people who choose to do the opposite.

But it's the messengers that say that nasty stuff, LH. So are you now insinuating that the messengers don't speak for God, or it's not God speaking through them?

 

[loverofhumanity]

But it's the messengers that say that nasty stuff, LH. So are you now insinuating that the messengers don't speak for God, or it's not God speaking through them?

Vinayaka, which nasty stuff are you referring to?

I have always said that the Messengers are as pure mirrors reflecting the will and purpose of God which is the appearance of love, unity and justice amongst men. God’s purpose has always been and is always things like ahimsa nothing else, as has been also the goal of the Messengers.

The same, however, cannot be said of their followers.

 

[Vinayaka]

Vinayaka, which nasty stuff are you referring to?

I have always said that the Messengers are as pure mirrors reflecting the will and purpose of God which is the appearance of love, unity and justice amongst men. God’s purpose has always been and is always things like ahimsa nothing else, as has been also the goal of the Messengers.

The same, however, cannot be said of their followers.

There were quotes of Baha'i'llah's referring to non-Bahai as blind, deaf, dogs, and worse. It was in the other thread. AB said some vile stiff about black Africans and indigenous people. So since he's infallible, it's only logical that you also think I'm deaf, blind, a dog, and a pig?

I can find you direct quotes if you want me to.

 

[loverofhumanity]

There were quotes of Baha'i'llah's referring to non-Bahai as blind, deaf, dogs, and worse. It was in the other thread. AB said some vile stiff about black Africans and indigenous people. So since he's infallible, it's only logical that you also think I'm deaf, blind, a dog, and a pig?

I can find you direct quotes if you want me to.

From the Baha’i Writings I’ve read over my 40 years as a Baha’i I’ve only read we are to see all people as precious human beings to be loved, respected and cherished which I consider you to be.

The quotes you mention are not from a Baha’i source.

As Arabic is a very rich language, words have multiple meanings some contradictory. For instance, in the Quran Sura 4:34, many translators have translated it into English to mean to hit one’s wife but the verb to hit is never mentioned in the Quran without stating how many times so on further investigation other translators have found that the same word in Arabic also means to ‘leave’ as in to separate. Huge difference. Muhammad always departed from his wives if they become hostile and never attacked them. The translation of 4:34 - to hit, contradicts the spirit of the Quran and is contrary to Muhammad’s own lifestyle which was to leave them to themselves so when all male translators have translated it as hit their leaning is questionable as they come from a culture which practised such things well before Muhammad appeared.

So a person who knows Arabic could easily use the translation which suits their motives to misguide his readers by slandering the character of Baha’u’llah which I believe they have attempted to do in this case.

So do we believe some hadiths which portray Muhammad in a bad light or the Covenants Muhammad made to the Christians which tell the complete opposite story?

Do we believe the Baha’i translations or the translations of those against the Faith?

 

[Vinayaka]

From the Baha’i Writings I’ve read over my 40 years as a Baha’i I’ve only read we are to see all people as precious human beings to be loved, respected and cherished which I consider you to be.

The quotes you mention are not from a Baha’i source.

As Arabic is a very rich language, words have multiple meanings some contradictory. For instance, in the Quran Sura 4:34, many translators have translated it into English to mean to hit one’s wife but the verb to hit is never mentioned in the Quran without stating how many times so on further investigation other translators have found that the same word in Arabic also means to ‘leave’ as in to separate. Huge difference. Muhammad always departed from his wives if they become hostile and never attacked them. The translation of 4:34 - to hit, contradicts the spirit of the Quran and is contrary to Muhammad’s own lifestyle which was to leave them to themselves so when all male translators have translated it as hit their leaning is questionable as they come from a culture which practised such things well before Muhammad appeared.

So a person who knows Arabic could easily use the translation which suits their motives to misguide his readers by slandering the character of Baha’u’llah which I believe they have attempted to do in this case.

So do we believe some hadiths which portray Muhammad in a bad light or the Covenants Muhammad made to the Christians which tell the complete opposite story?

Do we believe the Baha’i translations or the translations of those against the Faith?

So translators and websites like this one purposely mistranslate verses, because they are just so anti-Baha'i? If you find the many verses where he calls us non-Baha'i donkeys, ********, etc. , maybe you can give me what it says in your translations?

Baha’i Belief and Courtesy: Baha’u’llah Refers to Those that Deny Him as Animals, Pigs, Donkeys, Dogs, and ******** - Baha'i principles

 

[Vinayaka]

So a person who knows Arabic could easily use the translation which suits their motives to misguide his readers by slandering the character of Baha’u’llah which I believe they have attempted to do in this case.

The nasty stuff from AB was in English, so there is less doubt. But he was speaking on behalf of his father.

 

[loverofhumanity]

So translators and websites like this one purposely mistranslate verses, because they are just so anti-Baha'i? If you find the many verses where he calls us non-Baha'i donkeys, ********, etc. , maybe you can give me what it says in your translations?

Baha’i Belief and Courtesy: Baha’u’llah Refers to Those that Deny Him as Animals, Pigs, Donkeys, Dogs, and ******** - Baha'i principles

This is the official Baha’i website for the source of accurate translations of the Writings of Baha’u’llah.

Bahá’í Reference Library | The Bahá’í Faith

There are no such references in the Baha’i Reference Library. I would strongly advise not to pass judgement until first seeing the official Baha’i translation of the same documents when they are translated.

 

[CG Didymus]

He has some very odd ways of expressing it. Banishment to hell, having his so called messengers promote violence or disharmony, ... you know, that sort of thing.

The God of the Bible killed a lot of people, because they disobeyed him. I wonder if we are supposed to use the Abrahamic God as our example of how we are supposed to behave?

 

[Vinayaka]

This is the official Baha’i website for the source of accurate translations of the Writings of Baha’u’llah.

Bahá’í Reference Library | The Bahá’í Faith

There are no such references in the Baha’i Reference Library. I would strongly advise not to pass judgement until first seeing the official Baha’i translation of the same documents when they are translated.

Yes of course. Non-Baha'i sources about Baha'i couldn't possibly have any validity. Something written by a neutral non-Baha'i or worse, an ex-Baha'i, or worse yet, a Covenant Breaker, would, by definition, be a lie.

I'm sorry, LH, but I will continue to read whatever sources are available on the internet. Igt gives a far more balanced perspective.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes of course. Non-Baha'i sources about Baha'i couldn't possibly have any validity.

Yes of course. Baha'i sources about Baha'i couldn't possibly have any validity.
It makes a whole lot of sense that the non-Baha'i sources are more accurate than the Bahai sources. After all, they would know more about the Baha'i Faith than the actual Baha'is.
They could not possibly have any ulterior motives, could they?

“And I say unto you that no calumny is able to prevail against the Light of God; it can only result in causing it to be more universally recognized. If a cause were of no significance, who would take the trouble to work against it!

But always the greater the cause the more do enemies arise in larger and larger numbers to attempt its overthrow! The brighter the light the darker the shadow! Our part it is to act in accordance with the teaching of Bahá’u’lláh in humility and firm steadfastness.” Paris Talks, p. 106​

 

[loverofhumanity]

Yes of course. Non-Baha'i sources about Baha'i couldn't possibly have any validity. Something written by a neutral non-Baha'i or worse, an ex-Baha'i, or worse yet, a Covenant Breaker, would, by definition, be a lie.

I'm sorry, LH, but I will continue to read whatever sources are available on the internet. Igt gives a far more balanced perspective.

By all means in your investigation leave no stone unturned. That is a very commendable act.

 

[Trailblazer]

Something written by a neutral non-Baha'i

Got any of those? I would be perfectly happy to read those.

or worse, an ex-Baha'i, or worse yet, a Covenant Breaker, would, by definition, be a lie.

Of course those would be biased, for obvious logical reasons.
They would be lies if the Baha'i Faith is the truth.
So the only question that remains is whether the Baha'i Faith is the truth or a lie.
Nothing else matters.

 

[Vinayaka]

Yes of course. Baha'i sources about Baha'i couldn't possibly have any validity.
It makes a whole lot of sense that the non-Baha'i sources are more accurate than the Bahai sources. After all, they would know more about the Baha'i Faith than the actual Baha'is.
They could not possibly have any ulterior motives, could they?

“And I say unto you that no calumny is able to prevail against the Light of God; it can only result in causing it to be more universally recognized. If a cause were of no significance, who would take the trouble to work against it!

But always the greater the cause the more do enemies arise in larger and larger numbers to attempt its overthrow! The brighter the light the darker the shadow! Our part it is to act in accordance with the teaching of Bahá’u’lláh in humility and firm steadfastness.” Paris Talks, p. 106​

I never said Baha'i sources weren't valid. You extrapolated falsely. I just said I like to read both sides. If there is more than one translation, for example, why not read both? One of the problems with Baha'i 'investigation' is only reading Baha'i sources. So it's programmed confirmation bias. But continue on.

No idea how your quote fits in, and as a reminder, I never read them, for that reason. It;s just a form of proselytising. I like your thoughts though, generally.