Infallibility

[InvestigateTruth]

Can you give a link to these? Many are just non-Bahai, not anti-Baha'i. But with the us versus them mindset, I can understand why you said they were anti-Baha'i.

There are too many to put here. You can easily google them. Many are indeed Anti-Bahai as their goal is to refute the Bahai Faith... same kind of people who are still imprisoning Bahais. I was hoping by now, you know Bahai Faith has many enemies...

 

[blü 2]

What or who do you consider infallible, if anything?

How about:

There are no infallible statements outside of this sentence.
​

?

 

[Vinayaka]

There are too many to put here. You can easily google them. Many are indeed Anti-Bahai as their goal is to refute the Bahai Faith... same kind of people who are still imprisoning Bahais. I was hoping by now, you know Bahai Faith has many enemies...

I figured you wouldn't be able to. Not surprising, The Baha'i faith has few enemies, but it sure has a lot of paranoid people claiming they do. Is that also a message from your infallible UHJ? To remain paranoid? Ex-Baha'i, the few who care enough to speak out, are just sad for all the years they feel they wasted. So are ex-Catholics, ex-Mormons, ex-scientologists, etc. But most are just happy to be out of it, and move on with productive lives, harbouring little resentment. (Editted -I think coming to grips with the idea that infallibility is nonsense could be a reason to leave. Not sure idf there is infallibility in the Mormon Church though.)

When people don't care, or aren't convinced, it doesn't mean they are enemies.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I think there is some confusion in this thread by the use of the word "infallible" in the subject. Infallible is quite a bit different in meaning than simply being "correct." And so far as I know (though I see the mentions of the Baha'i faith in the thread) the only real claim to infallibility was made by Pope Pius IX, sometime around 1870. And it means something quite specific:

Infallibility, for the Catholic Church, I think means that the Pope (or the whole Magisterium) must be speaking ex cathedra (ie out of the chair, or in effect teaching) and only on matters of faith or morals...that is Catholic dogma. The church that punished Galileo for claiming that the earth moved was not making an infallible statement, that it did not, because there was not hint that the Pope or magisterium were trying to teach a matter concerning faith or morals. So, almost 400 years later, it didn't hurt John Paul II to apologize, because he was making no admission concerning the presumed fallibility of a previous pope.

 

[Vinayaka]

I think there is some confusion in this thread by the use of the word "infallible" in the subject. Infallible is quite a bit different in meaning than simply being "correct." And so far as I know (though I see the mentions of the Baha'i faith in the thread) the only real claim to infallibility was made by Pope Pius IX, sometime around 1870. And it means something quite specific:

Infallibility, for the Catholic Church, I think means that the Pope (or the whole Magisterium) must be speaking ex cathedra (ie out of the chair, or in effect teaching) and only on matters of faith or morals...that is Catholic dogma. The church that punished Galileo for claiming that the earth moved was not making an infallible statement, that it did not, because there was not hint that the Pope or magisterium were trying to teach a matter concerning faith or morals. So, almost 400 years later, it didn't hurt John Paul II to apologize, because he was making no admission concerning the presumed fallibility of a previous pope.

Kind of what I figured about Catholicism, and thanks for the explanation. Much different than the Baha'i or other version version, which simply means never wrong period.

in·fal·li·bil·i·ty
inˌfaləˈbilədē/
noun
noun: infallibility

1. the quality of being infallible; the inability to be wrong.
   "his judgment became impaired by faith in his own infallibility"
   • (in the Roman Catholic Church) the doctrine that in specified circumstances the Pope is incapable of error in pronouncing dogma.
     noun: papal infallibility; plural noun: papal infallibilities

O

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I figured you wouldn't be able to. Not surprising, The Baha'i faith has few enemies, but it sure has a lot of paranoid people claiming they do. Is that also a message from your infallible UHJ? To remain paranoid? Ex-Baha'i, the few who care enough to speak out, are just sad for all the years they feel they wasted. So are ex-Catholics, ex-Mormons, ex-scientologists, etc. But most are just happy to be out of it, and move on with productive lives, harbouring little resentment. (Editted -I think coming to grips with the idea that infallibility is nonsense could be a reason to leave. Not sure idf there is infallibility in the Mormon Church though.)

When people don't care, or aren't convinced, it doesn't mean they are enemies.

Well, the Bab was executed along with 20000 of His followers. Then Bahaullah, and Abdulbaha were imprisoned and exiled for nearly 50 years along with some of their followers. That is what I mean by enemies. Those enemies wrote many books to refute the Bahai Faith and still are writing.
No, i cannot do the investigation for you. You need to do it for yourself if you want.

 

[Vinayaka]

Well, the Bab was executed along with 20000 of His followers. Then Bahaullah, and Abdulbaha were imprisoned and exiled for nearly 50 years along with some of their followers. That is what I mean by enemies. Those enemies wrote many books to refute the Bahai Faith and still are writing.
No, i cannot do the investigation for you. You need to do it for yourself if you want.

Yes of course. You have a non-Baha'i source?

I've already been to many non-Baha'i sponsored sites because I have an open mind on such things, so I don't need to do the research.

But what's all this got to do with infallibility? You're saying your sources are all infallible?

 

[Katzpur]

Not sure idf there is infallibility in the Mormon Church though.

No, there is not. That reminds me of an old joke (though I'm afraid I can't provide you with a source) that goes like this: “Catholics say the pope is infallible but don’t really believe it; Mormons say the prophet is fallible but don’t really believe it.”

 

[Vinayaka]

No, there is not. That reminds me of an old joke (though I'm afraid I can't provide you with a source) that goes like this: “Catholics say the pope is infallible but don’t really believe it; Mormons say the prophet is fallible but don’t really believe it.”

I thought you might chime in. Thanks for the information.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Yes of course. You have a non-Baha'i source?

I've already been to many non-Baha'i sponsored sites because I have an open mind on such things, so I don't need to do the research.

Non-Bahai source would be for exampke the writings of E.G. Browne.

But what's all this got to do with infallibility? You're saying your sources are all infallible?

I have already explained. Think of it this way: someone is making a claim. He can be honest or liar. You need to find out. You read different documents and sources. From Himself. From His enemies, and others. You carefully and without bias examine all the evidences. Then judge fairly for yourself if this person is honest or a liar.
Hope that helps...
Good luck now.

 

[Vinayaka]

Think of it this way: someone is making a claim. He can be honest or liar.

Precisely my point.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Thank you. That's interesting that you can't find it as a concept. Maybe it developed later. I know with prophets, messengers, it is often self-declared, or put on them by overly enthusiastic devotee/followers. A bit overdone for an honorarium I think.

Your right, there are alot of people who will look upon their Pastor's, Preachers, As being infallible. Forgetting they are with human fault's like anyone else.
But then these Pastor's, Preachers, look upon themselves as being infallible.

So I ask them to explain Romans 3:23, "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God"
Then I watch them trying to figure out a way of getting out of it. It's just amazing.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Precisely my point.

Exactly. So we are in agreement. In fact we were never in disagreement with this regard, unless you were thinking so.

 

[Vinayaka]

Exactly. So we are in agreement. In fact we were never in disagreement with this regard, unless you were thinking so.

Yes. People often reach different conclusions, even reading the same materials. It's interesting. Accusations of a lack of effort are fruitless, in my view. Obviously you've done your study and come to your own conclusions on infallibility etc. As have I and many others. In different paradigms, the other side often makes absolutely no sense at all.

 

[Audie]

Your right, there are alot of people who will look upon their Pastor's, Preachers, As being infallible. Forgetting they are with human fault's like anyone else.
But then these Pastor's, Preachers, look upon themselves as being infallible.

So I ask them to explain Romans 3:23, "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God"
Then I watch them trying to figure out a way of getting out of it. It's just amazing.

What is "glory"?

 

[Vinayaka]

So I ask them to explain Romans 3:23, "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God"
Then I watch them trying to figure out a way of getting out of it. It's just amazing.

Baha'is and others who came later often just discard or reinterpret verses like this to suit their own agenda, and they do it with relative ease. After all, their own teaching is infallible, lol.

The Infallibility of the Universal House of Justice

 

[Faithofchristian]

What is "glory"?

Meaning of glory
high renown or honor won by notable achievements.
"to fight and die for the glory of one's nation"

 

[Faithofchristian]

Baha'is and others who came later often just discard or reinterpret verses like this to suit their own agenda, and they do it with relative ease. After all, their own teaching is infallible, lol.

The Infallibility of the Universal House of Justice

Alot of people do that, thinking of themselves as being higher than others.
But little do they know, they are just as human as we are and with faults like anyone else.
So how infallible are they.

 

[Vinayaka]

Alot of people do that, thinking of themselves as being higher than others.
But little do they know, they are just as human as we are and with faults like anyone else.
So how infallible are they.

Some people are indeed smarter or wiser, based on a lot of stuff, like experience, or genetics, but infallibility is just way too far. The wisest people I personally know tend to be very humble about it. Infallibility just reeks of ego.

 

[sayak83]

Do you think Lord Shiva is not able to create a human who is infallible?

Humans cannot be created or destroyed. The Atman of every being is eternal, uncreated and indestructible.