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Infant Baptism - "A Solemn Mockery before God"

madhatter85

Transhumanist
r Mormon, written to me, Moroni; and it was written unto me soon after my calling to the ministry. And on this wise did he write unto me, saying:
2 My beloved son, Moroni, I rejoice exceedingly that your Lord Jesus Christ hath been mindful of you, and hath called you to his ministry, and to his holy work.
3 I am mindful of you always in my prayers, continually praying unto God the Father in the name of his Holy Child, Jesus, that he, through his infinite goodness and grace, will keep you through the endurance of faith on his name to the end.
4 And now, my son, I speak unto you concerning that which grieveth me exceedingly; for it grieveth me that there should disputations rise among you.
5 For, if I have learned the truth, there have been disputations among you concerning the baptism of your little children.
6 And now, my son, I desire that ye should labor diligently, that this gross error should be removed from among you; for, for this intent I have written this epistle.
7 For immediately after I had learned these things of you I inquired of the Lord concerning the matter. And the word of the Lord came to me by the power of the Holy Ghost, saying:
8 Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me.
9 And after this manner did the Holy Ghost manifest the word of God unto me; wherefore, my beloved son, I know that it is solemn mockery before God, that ye should baptize little children.
10 Behold I say unto you that this thing shall ye teach—repentance and baptism unto those who are aaccountable and capable of committing sin; yea, teach parents that they must repent and be baptized, and humble themselves as their little children, and they shall all be saved with their little children.
11 And their little children need no repentance, neither baptism. Behold, baptism is unto repentance to the fulfilling the commandments unto the remission of sins.
12 But little children are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world; if not so, God is a partial God, and also a changeable God, and a respecter to persons; for how many little children have died without baptism!
13 Wherefore, if little children could not be saved without baptism, these must have gone to an endless hell.
14 Behold I say unto you, that he that supposeth that little children need baptism is in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; for he hath neither faith, hope, nor charity; wherefore, should he be cut off while in the thought, he must go down to hell.
15 For awful is the wickedness to suppose that God saveth one child because of baptism, and the other must perish because he hath no baptism.
16 Wo be unto them that shall pervert the ways of the Lord after this manner, for they shall perish except they repent. Behold, I speak with boldness, having authority from God; and I fear not what man can do; for perfect clove dcasteth out all fear.

17 And I am filled with charity, which is everlasting love; wherefore, all children are alike unto me; wherefore, I love little children with a perfect love; and they are all alike and partakers of salvation.
18 For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity.
19 Little children cannot repent; wherefore, it is awful wickedness to deny the pure mercies of God unto them, for they are all alive in him because of his mercy.
20 And he that saith that little children need baptism denieth the mercies of Christ, and setteth at naught the atonement of him and the power of his redemption.
21 Wo unto such, for they are in danger of death, hell, and an endless torment. I speak it boldly; God hath commanded me. Listen unto them and give heed, or they stand against you at the judgment-seat of Christ.
22 For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have dno law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing—
23 But it is mockery before God, denying the mercies of Christ, and the power of his Holy Spirit, and putting trust in dead works.
24 Behold, my son, this thing ought not to be; for arepentance is unto them that are under condemnation and under the curse of a broken law.
25 And the first fruits of repentance is baptism; and baptism cometh by faith unto the fulfilling the commandments; and the fulfilling the commandments bringeth remission of sins;
26 And the remission of sins bringeth meekness, and lowliness of heart; and because of meekness and lowliness of heart cometh the visitation of the Holy Ghost, which Comforter filleth with hope and perfect elove, which love endureth by diligence unto prayer, until the end shall come, when all the saints shall dwell with God.
27 Behold, my son, I will write unto you again if I go not out soon against the Lamanites. Behold, the pride of this nation, or the people of the Nephites, hath proven their destruction except they should repent.
28 Pray for them, my son, that repentance may come unto them. But behold, I fear lest the Spirit hath ceased striving with them; and in this part of the land they are also seeking to put down all power and authority which cometh from God; and they are denying the Holy Ghost.
29 And after rejecting so great a knowledge, my son, they must perish soon, unto the fulfilling of the prophecies which were spoken by the prophets, as well as the words of our Savior himself.
30 Farewell, my son, until I shall write unto you, or shall meet you again. Amen.

That is the 8th Chapter of Moroni. Which is why Mormons do not baptise infants. Debates are welcome. Please provide solid rebuttles if any. Thanks
 
That is the 8th Chapter of Moroni. Which is why Mormons do not baptise infants. Debates are welcome. Please provide solid rebuttles if any. Thanks
The basic argument I'm getting is that, since infants can't sin, they don't need to be baptized. This, of course, makes no difference when one accepts the truth of original sin, thus necessitating a purification from it asap in life.
 

nutshell

Well-Known Member
The basic argument I'm getting is that, since infants can't sin, they don't need to be baptized. This, of course, makes no difference when one accepts the truth of original sin, thus necessitating a purification from it asap in life.


But how does an infant who can't form thoughts accept Christ? Isn't baptism an outward demonstration of our acceptance of Christ? Please help me, sister.
 

madhatter85

Transhumanist
You really want to do this? :eek: :cover: :confused:

Eh, why not, this is a religious debate forum, i'm just quoting scripture, i'm not attacking anyone. i'm curious what peopel have to say about it. we spend alot of time defending our religious practices like BFTD. and whatnot.
 

madhatter85

Transhumanist
The basic argument I'm getting is that, since infants can't sin, they don't need to be baptized. This, of course, makes no difference when one accepts the truth of original sin, thus necessitating a purification from it asap in life.

8 Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me.

This verse explains that there is no original sin.
 

Booko

Deviled Hen
The basic argument I'm getting is that, since infants can't sin, they don't need to be baptized. This, of course, makes no difference when one accepts the truth of original sin, thus necessitating a purification from it asap in life.

I wonder what the Orthodox make of it then, because they certainly have chrismation, and don't do original sin. :confused:
 
8 Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me.

This verse explains that there is no original sin.
It offers your opinion, but it gives no rationale as to how this is so..."the curse of Adam is taken from them in me..." How so? Does this mean that children before Christ had original sin but those after do not?
 
I wonder what the Orthodox make of it then, because they certainly have chrismation, and don't do original sin. :confused:
The Orthodox don't believe in original sin of any kind? This is news to me. If anything I think they'd say that it is the New Covenant version of circumcision.
 

Bishka

Veteran Member
It offers your opinion, but it gives no rationale as to how this is so..."the curse of Adam is taken from them in me..." How so? Does this mean that children before Christ had original sin but those after do not?

In LDS theology, there has never been original sin on anyone past Adam and Eve. Like one of the articles of faith say, "We believe that we will be punished for our own sin's and not for Adam's transgressions."
 

madhatter85

Transhumanist
It offers your opinion, but it gives no rationale as to how this is so..."the curse of Adam is taken from them in me..." How so? Does this mean that children before Christ had original sin but those after do not?


If Christ died for all of the sins of the world.... that would also include Adam's sins. (in christian theology) if you don't believe so, why?

in the jewish faith, circumscism was to "cleanse" the child of the "original sin" that being done away with in christianity after christ came and died for the sins of the world. The onyl faith that did not stop this practice were the Jews who never accepted christ to begin with. (we of course still circumcise our children not for religious reasons in christianity, but for health reasons)
 

jonny

Well-Known Member
It offers your opinion, but it gives no rationale as to how this is so..."the curse of Adam is taken from them in me..." How so? Does this mean that children before Christ had original sin but those after do not?

What do you believe the atonement accomplished?
 

jonny

Well-Known Member
While you're at it, could you also explain what you believe Adam's Fall accomplished? The fall & the atonement are interelated.
 
If Christ died for all of the sins of the world.... that would also include Adam's sins. (in christian theology) if you don't believe so, why?
I do. That doesn't mean that sin ceases to have consquences.

in the jewish faith, circumscism was to "cleanse" the child of the "original sin" that being done away with in christianity after christ came and died for the sins of the world.
So your answer to my earlier question is yes? Becky says that Mormons believe that there has never been such a thing as original sin...it seems like you're saying that there was, up until Christ. Which is it?

The onyl faith that did not stop this practice were the Jews who never accepted christ to begin with. (we of course still circumcise our children not for religious reasons in christianity, but for health reasons)
In the New Covenant, we (Catholics and other paedo-baptists) believe that baptism has replaced circumcision, thus our administration of it on infants.
 
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