Smoke
Done here.
And yet it's still not worth it.
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Infant Baptism - "A Solemn Mockery before God"
- Thread starter madhatter85
- Start date
Wealthier people tend to live longer anyhow because they have better access to health care. And even if income and LDS church membership correlate, how do you know it's not that it's more attractive to wealthier people, rather than membership in the church causing some sort of income boost?
Unless you're going to suggest that being an active Mormon somehow increases your fertility, I'd suggest that bigger families are likely a more common choice in the Mormon community than elsewhere. If this reflects a decision that non-Mormons could make but just choose not to, then it isn't exactly a selling point.
I'm sure that the Saint Vincent de Paul Society would be happy to challenge both of those points.
BTW - do you include preaching the Book of Mormon as "service to the world"?
Edit:
As long as we're having fun mis-using statistics, I should point out that the percentage of the population who are LDS members is approximately 0.46% in Canada (based on numbers from www.adherents.com) and 1.00% in the United States. Canada's current life expectancy is 79.4, and the United States' is 77.2. Can we therefore conclude that proximity to Mormons is generally bad for peoples' health?
madhatter85
Transhumanist
-Going off topic
#1 my comments were of a sarcastic nature,
#2 bring on St. Vincent De paul and anyone. look up the facts and you will see that i'm right.
#3 OF course it's a service to the world, but we do not count that as far as the amoutn of man-hours of service the church provides to the world. if we did there would be absolutely no contest. just a mild example - Hurricane Katrina - The LDS church was the largest donator of services and goods to the families, and the majority of homes that welcomed the refugees of the disaster were LDS homes.
Edit - Sorry i meant Largest private welfare system in the nation, not the world, they would be #2 there next to the U.N.'s system
athanasius
Well-Known Member
i know, i was only being a smartass.
Your language and tone only do the Mormon church a disservice. Thank Goodness that I know there are good solid respectful LDS on this board that truly represent Godly people and know how to have a respectful conversation and use respectful language when engaging in dialog as opposed to you. God bless you,
In Jesus through Mary,
Athanasius
FerventGodSeeker
Believer
I didn't take it out of context at all. I am fully aware of what propensity means, sir.
They inherit a tendency to sin. That doesn't mean they sin the moment they pop out of the womb, please don't be confused. It means that they inherit the propensity to sin that becomes evident as they age.
This is simply an incorrect statement. Jewish male babies were circumcised at 8 days old. See Genesis 17:10-14
athanasius
Well-Known Member
No one said that you should accept them as scripture. Catholics do not even accept them as scripture. They are not written down. They are not the same, albeit they contain the oral word of God. However, you in a bind here because St. Paul (2 thess 2:15) did accept oral tradition as binding on believers. And our Point is much much stronger because all the early chrisitans in the first 8 hundred years accepted the oral apostolic traditions as binding and the oral word of God. But no one ever accepted the book of Mormon or the D and C or Pearl of Great Price until some 1900 years later. That seems dubious.
God bless you,
Athanasis
madhatter85
Transhumanist
So you agree with me that there is no need to baptise infants because they have not sinned untill they are old enough to be accountable. Thank you.
madhatter85
Transhumanist
its fun to see people take it to a personal level. that means they have no rleveant information to bring to the table anymore but still want to argue thier point.
i appreciate your thoughts for me
peace be with you:drool: , and with you:drool: , and also with you..... and you as well:yes:
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Athanasius,
Bear in mind that on a forum such as this, people are not always what they pretend to be. If it doesn't sound, think or act like a Latter-day Saint, chances are, it's not a Latter-day Saint.
FerventGodSeeker
Believer
No, I don't agree, of course. I believe they need to be cleansed from the stain of original sin before they ever have a chance to act on it.
madhatter85
Transhumanist
that's not what you said though. "how can they sin when they pop out of the Womb?"
Here's a question for you, do you believe that the atonement did not cover every sin mankind ever made or will make?
Scott1
Well-Known Member
Just a little info in case anyone wants to know what Roman Catholics believe about infant baptism:
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
The Baptism of infants
1250 Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by original sin, children also have need of the new birth in Baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and brought into the realm of the freedom of the children of God, to which all men are called.
The sheer gratuitousness of the grace of salvation is particularly manifest in infant Baptism. The Church and the parents would deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer Baptism shortly after birth.
1251 Christian parents will recognize that this practice also accords with their role as nurturers of the life that God has entrusted to them.
1252 The practice of infant Baptism is an immemorial tradition of the Church. There is explicit testimony to this practice from the second century on, and it is quite possible that, from the beginning of the apostolic preaching, when whole "households" received baptism, infants may also have been baptized
1260"Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.
1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.
From Scripture:
Gen. 17:12, Lev. 12:3 - these texts show the circumcision of eight-day old babies as the way of entering into the Old Covenant - Col 2:11-12 - however, baptism is the new "circumcision" for all people of the New Covenant. Therefore, baptism is for babies as well as adults. God did not make His new Covenant narrower than the old Covenant. To the contrary, He made it wider, for both Jews and Gentiles, infants and adults.
Job 14:1-4 - man that is born of woman is full of trouble and unclean. Baptism is required for all human beings because of our sinful human nature.
Psalm 51:5 - we are conceived in the iniquity of sin. This shows the necessity of baptism from conception.
Matt. 18:2-5 - Jesus says unless we become like children, we cannot enter into heaven. So why would children be excluded from baptism?
Matt 19:14 - Jesus clearly says the kingdom of heaven also belongs to children. There is no age limit on entering the kingdom, and no age limit for being eligible for baptism.
Mark 10:14 - Jesus says to let the children come to Him for the kingdom of God also belongs to them. Jesus says nothing about being too young to come into the kingdom of God.
Mark 16:16 - Jesus says to the crowd, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved." But in reference to the same people, Jesus immediately follows with "He who does not believe will be condemned." This demonstrates that one can be baptized and still not be a believer. This disproves the Protestant argument that one must be a believer to be baptized. There is nothing in the Bible about a "believer's baptism."
Luke 18:15 – Jesus says, “Let the children come to me.” The people brought infants to Jesus that he might touch them. This demonstrates that the receipt of grace is not dependent upon the age of reason.
Acts 2:38 - Peter says to the multitude, "Repent and be baptized.." Protestants use this verse to prove one must be a believer (not an infant) to be baptized. But the Greek translation literally says, "If you repent, then each one who is a part of you and yours must each be baptized” (“Metanoesate kai bapistheto hekastos hymon.” This, contrary to what Protestants argue, actually proves that babies are baptized based on their parents’ faith. This is confirmed in the next verse.
Acts 2:39 - Peter then says baptism is specifically given to children as well as adults. “Those far off” refers to those who were at their “homes” (primarily infants and children). God's covenant family includes children. The word "children" that Peter used comes from the Greek word "teknon" which also includes infants.
Luke 1:59 - this proves that "teknon" includes infants. Here, John as a "teknon" (infant) was circumcised. See also Acts 21:21 which uses “teknon” for eight-day old babies. So baptism is for infants as well as adults.
Acts 10:47-48 - Peter baptized the entire house of Cornelius, which generally included infants and young children. There is not one word in Scripture about baptism being limited to adults.
Acts 16:15 - Paul baptized Lydia and her entire household. The word "household" comes from the Greek word "oikos" which is a household that includes infants and children.
Acts 16:15 - further, Paul baptizes the household based on Lydia's faith, not the faith of the members of the household. This demonstrates that parents can present their children for baptism based on the parents' faith, not the children's faith.
Acts 16:30-33 - it was only the adults who were candidates for baptism that had to profess a belief in Jesus. This is consistent with the Church's practice of instructing catechumens before baptism. But this verse does not support a "believer's baptism" requirement for everyone. See Acts 16:15,33. The earlier one comes to baptism, the better. For those who come to baptism as adults, the Church has always required them to profess their belief in Christ. For babies who come to baptism, the Church has always required the parents to profess the belief in Christ on behalf of the baby. But there is nothing in the Scriptures about a requirement for ALL baptism candidates to profess their own belief in Christ (because the Church has baptized babies for 2,000 years).
Acts 16:33 - Paul baptized the jailer (an adult) and his entire household (which had to include children). Baptism is never limited to adults and those of the age of reason. See also Luke 19:9; John 4:53; Acts 11:14; 1 Cor. 1:16; and 1 Tim. 3:12; Gen. 31:41; 36:6; 41:51; Joshua 24:15; 2 Sam. 7:11, 1 Chron. 10:6 which shows “oikos” generally includes children.
Rom. 5:12 - sin came through Adam and death through sin. Babies' souls are affected by Adam's sin and need baptism just like adult souls.
Rom. 5:15 - the grace of Jesus Christ surpasses that of the Old Covenant. So children can also enter the new Covenant in baptism. From a Jewish perspective, it would have been unthinkable to exclude infants and children from God's Covenant kingdom.
1 Cor. 1:16 - Paul baptized the household ("oikos") of Stephanus. Baptism is not limited to adults.
Eph. 1:1; Col. 1:2 - Paul addresses the "saints" of the Church, and these include the children he addresses in Eph. 6:1 and Col. 3:20. Children become saints of the Church only through baptism.
Eph. 2:3 - we are all by nature children of wrath, in sin, like all mankind. Infants are no exception. See also Psalm 51:5 and Job 14:1-4 which teach us we are conceived in sin and born unclean.
2 Thess. 3:10 - if anyone does not work let him not eat. But this implies that those who are unable to work should still be able to eat. Babies should not starve because they are unable to work, and should also not be denied baptism because they are unable to make a declaration of faith.
Matt. 9:2; Mark 2:3-5 - the faith of those who brought in the paralytic cured the paralytic's sins. This is an example of the forgiveness of sins based on another's faith, just like infant baptism. The infant child is forgiven of sin based on the parents' faith.
Matt. 8:5-13 - the servant is healed based upon the centurion's faith. This is another example of healing based on another's faith. If Jesus can heal us based on someone else’s faith, then He can baptize us based on someone else’s faith as well.
Mark 9:22-25 - Jesus exercises the child's unclean spirit based on the father's faith. This healing is again based on another's faith.
1 Cor. 7:14 – Paul says that children are sanctified by God through the belief of only one of their parents.
Exodus 12:24-28 - the Passover was based on the parent's faith. If they did not kill and eat the lamb, their first-born child died. Joshua 5:2-7 - God punished Israel because the people had not circumcised their children. This was based on the parent's faith. The parents play a critical role in their child's salvation.
A few sites that might help:
Infant Baptism
Early Teachings of Infant Baptism (Fathers*)
www.scripturecatholic.com
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
The Baptism of infants
1250 Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by original sin, children also have need of the new birth in Baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and brought into the realm of the freedom of the children of God, to which all men are called.
The sheer gratuitousness of the grace of salvation is particularly manifest in infant Baptism. The Church and the parents would deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer Baptism shortly after birth.
1251 Christian parents will recognize that this practice also accords with their role as nurturers of the life that God has entrusted to them.
1252 The practice of infant Baptism is an immemorial tradition of the Church. There is explicit testimony to this practice from the second century on, and it is quite possible that, from the beginning of the apostolic preaching, when whole "households" received baptism, infants may also have been baptized
1260"Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.
1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.
From Scripture:
Gen. 17:12, Lev. 12:3 - these texts show the circumcision of eight-day old babies as the way of entering into the Old Covenant - Col 2:11-12 - however, baptism is the new "circumcision" for all people of the New Covenant. Therefore, baptism is for babies as well as adults. God did not make His new Covenant narrower than the old Covenant. To the contrary, He made it wider, for both Jews and Gentiles, infants and adults.
Job 14:1-4 - man that is born of woman is full of trouble and unclean. Baptism is required for all human beings because of our sinful human nature.
Psalm 51:5 - we are conceived in the iniquity of sin. This shows the necessity of baptism from conception.
Matt. 18:2-5 - Jesus says unless we become like children, we cannot enter into heaven. So why would children be excluded from baptism?
Matt 19:14 - Jesus clearly says the kingdom of heaven also belongs to children. There is no age limit on entering the kingdom, and no age limit for being eligible for baptism.
Mark 10:14 - Jesus says to let the children come to Him for the kingdom of God also belongs to them. Jesus says nothing about being too young to come into the kingdom of God.
Mark 16:16 - Jesus says to the crowd, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved." But in reference to the same people, Jesus immediately follows with "He who does not believe will be condemned." This demonstrates that one can be baptized and still not be a believer. This disproves the Protestant argument that one must be a believer to be baptized. There is nothing in the Bible about a "believer's baptism."
Luke 18:15 – Jesus says, “Let the children come to me.” The people brought infants to Jesus that he might touch them. This demonstrates that the receipt of grace is not dependent upon the age of reason.
Acts 2:38 - Peter says to the multitude, "Repent and be baptized.." Protestants use this verse to prove one must be a believer (not an infant) to be baptized. But the Greek translation literally says, "If you repent, then each one who is a part of you and yours must each be baptized” (“Metanoesate kai bapistheto hekastos hymon.”
This, contrary to what Protestants argue, actually proves that babies are baptized based on their parents’ faith. This is confirmed in the next verse. Acts 2:39 - Peter then says baptism is specifically given to children as well as adults. “Those far off” refers to those who were at their “homes” (primarily infants and children). God's covenant family includes children. The word "children" that Peter used comes from the Greek word "teknon" which also includes infants.
Luke 1:59 - this proves that "teknon" includes infants. Here, John as a "teknon" (infant) was circumcised. See also Acts 21:21 which uses “teknon” for eight-day old babies. So baptism is for infants as well as adults.
Acts 10:47-48 - Peter baptized the entire house of Cornelius, which generally included infants and young children. There is not one word in Scripture about baptism being limited to adults.
Acts 16:15 - Paul baptized Lydia and her entire household. The word "household" comes from the Greek word "oikos" which is a household that includes infants and children.
Acts 16:15 - further, Paul baptizes the household based on Lydia's faith, not the faith of the members of the household. This demonstrates that parents can present their children for baptism based on the parents' faith, not the children's faith.
Acts 16:30-33 - it was only the adults who were candidates for baptism that had to profess a belief in Jesus. This is consistent with the Church's practice of instructing catechumens before baptism. But this verse does not support a "believer's baptism" requirement for everyone. See Acts 16:15,33. The earlier one comes to baptism, the better. For those who come to baptism as adults, the Church has always required them to profess their belief in Christ. For babies who come to baptism, the Church has always required the parents to profess the belief in Christ on behalf of the baby. But there is nothing in the Scriptures about a requirement for ALL baptism candidates to profess their own belief in Christ (because the Church has baptized babies for 2,000 years).
Acts 16:33 - Paul baptized the jailer (an adult) and his entire household (which had to include children). Baptism is never limited to adults and those of the age of reason. See also Luke 19:9; John 4:53; Acts 11:14; 1 Cor. 1:16; and 1 Tim. 3:12; Gen. 31:41; 36:6; 41:51; Joshua 24:15; 2 Sam. 7:11, 1 Chron. 10:6 which shows “oikos” generally includes children.
Rom. 5:12 - sin came through Adam and death through sin. Babies' souls are affected by Adam's sin and need baptism just like adult souls.
Rom. 5:15 - the grace of Jesus Christ surpasses that of the Old Covenant. So children can also enter the new Covenant in baptism. From a Jewish perspective, it would have been unthinkable to exclude infants and children from God's Covenant kingdom.
1 Cor. 1:16 - Paul baptized the household ("oikos") of Stephanus. Baptism is not limited to adults.
Eph. 1:1; Col. 1:2 - Paul addresses the "saints" of the Church, and these include the children he addresses in Eph. 6:1 and Col. 3:20. Children become saints of the Church only through baptism.
Eph. 2:3 - we are all by nature children of wrath, in sin, like all mankind. Infants are no exception. See also Psalm 51:5 and Job 14:1-4 which teach us we are conceived in sin and born unclean.
2 Thess. 3:10 - if anyone does not work let him not eat. But this implies that those who are unable to work should still be able to eat. Babies should not starve because they are unable to work, and should also not be denied baptism because they are unable to make a declaration of faith.
Matt. 9:2; Mark 2:3-5 - the faith of those who brought in the paralytic cured the paralytic's sins. This is an example of the forgiveness of sins based on another's faith, just like infant baptism. The infant child is forgiven of sin based on the parents' faith.
Matt. 8:5-13 - the servant is healed based upon the centurion's faith. This is another example of healing based on another's faith. If Jesus can heal us based on someone else’s faith, then He can baptize us based on someone else’s faith as well.
Mark 9:22-25 - Jesus exercises the child's unclean spirit based on the father's faith. This healing is again based on another's faith.
1 Cor. 7:14 – Paul says that children are sanctified by God through the belief of only one of their parents.
Exodus 12:24-28 - the Passover was based on the parent's faith. If they did not kill and eat the lamb, their first-born child died. Joshua 5:2-7 - God punished Israel because the people had not circumcised their children. This was based on the parent's faith. The parents play a critical role in their child's salvation.
A few sites that might help:
Infant Baptism
Early Teachings of Infant Baptism (Fathers*)
www.scripturecatholic.com
madhatter85
Transhumanist
Still didn't answer my question.
"Here's a question for you, do you believe that the atonement did not cover every sin mankind ever made or will make?"
FerventGodSeeker
Believer
Sinning in actuality, and having a propensity to sin, are two different things, yes.
No, I believe that it did cover every sin. Here's a question for you: Do the effects of the atonement automatically extend to every person (i.e. automatically saving all people), or must the grace of the atonement be made effective in each person individually? (Through faith, baptism, etc)
madhatter85
Transhumanist
The Effects of the atonement Do indeed extend to everyone. why wouldn't they?
It says in the scripures everyoen can be saved through the atonement if they will but repent, be baptised, and be saved.
Here's a question for you, How can a person be truely baptized unless they do it willingly with a knowing of what it actually means to be baptized? if it is done any other way wouldn't it be in vain?
FerventGodSeeker
Believer
Do you believe that outer darkness will be empty, then? All will be saved?
Yes, everyone CAN. Not everyone WILL. Why? Because the individual effects of the atonement on a specific person must be actuated individually.
No, because parents can speak and make decisions for their children when they cannot speak and make decisions for themselves.
madhatter85
Transhumanist
Okay so you want to take away a person's free-agency? and force thier life on rails with no way of choosing?
FerventGodSeeker
Believer
Not only did you not answer my question, you create a ridiculous straw man...how much "free-agency" are YOU suggesting that an infant has? You don't believe that moms and dads can speak and make decisions for their young children (particularly babies, for goodness sake)?
On certain issues, yes: parents make the vast majority of decisions for their children. Starting out, a baby really only decides when to sleep, poop and cry... everything else is up to the parent.
However, it's recognized that some decisions are best left until the child is mature enough to make the choice for himself or herself. Hence why most political parties don't accept infants as full members, for example.*
Should parents be able to sign contracts on their childrens' behalf that will have binding consequences for the entire life of their child? Should a parent be able, for example, to enlist a child in the army as a baby (deferred, of course: basic training at 18, say, followed by a 5 year service obligation)?
If we say no, that these major choices should be left up to the child when he or she is mature and responsible, why not baptism? It's intended to be a lifelong commitment that will be binding on the baptized even when he or she is an adult; shouldn't the adult (or at least the reasonably mature teenager) get a say?
*Edit: and in the end, isn't it as ridiculous to claim that an infant is a Catholic or an Orthodox Christian as it is to claim that he's a Republican or a Marxist-Leninist when he doesn't have the mental capability to eat with utensils or keep from soiling his diaper... to say nothing about formulating beliefs on complex concepts like politics and religion?