Infant Baptism - "A Solemn Mockery before God"

[DeepShadow]

Not only did you not answer my question, you create a ridiculous straw man...how much "free-agency" are YOU suggesting that an infant has? You don't believe that moms and dads can speak and make decisions for their young children (particularly babies, for goodness sake)?

In MH's defense, I don't think he's making a strawman as much as he's just failed to meet you in your worldview. He's saying we need to allow the child to grow to the age of accountability and develop those reasoning skills first.

It's like an ancient Roman engineer criticising a modern car because it would shake itself apart at high speeds on the roads he builds. He needs to realize that we use different roads, and that our modern cars work on modern roads.

 

[DeepShadow]

Still didn't answer my question.

No, he's answered the OP, which is better.

...we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

We have mysteries in our church. Why do you not allow others the same privilege?

 

[joeboonda]

I attended a contemporary service attached to the Methodist Church last Sunday. They were very excited to baptise the baby of the praise and worship band leader. I think it is more for the parents than anything else, dedicating the baby and themselves to the Lord. Saying they will raise it in the Lord the best they can. While I do not believe in infant baptism, I have not been able to bring myself to condemn anyone for doing it. They do so many other things right at that church. I seem to feel the Spirit very present in their services, I just have to take my criticisms and wad them up and throw them in the wastebasket. I do believe I feel more at home in the Baptist Church though. The Protestant Churches came from the Catholic Church and thus have carried with them some of their traditions. There is nothing wrong with traditions if they go along with scripture. The Baptists were persecuted by both Protestants and Catholics, the Protestants for insisting people get baptized after they become believers by immersion. Whatever the differences, it is most important to remember we are all one in the body of Christ, we have all been baptized by one spirit into the body of Christ. We should rejoice in this, that we have believed in the Lord Jesus Christ and our names are written in Heaven.
Peace and Love and Joy and Grace!
Mike

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

On certain issues, yes: parents make the vast majority of decisions for their children. Starting out, a baby really only decides when to sleep, poop and cry... everything else is up to the parent.

However, it's recognized that some decisions are best left until the child is mature enough to make the choice for himself or herself. Hence why most political parties don't accept infants as full members, for example.*

Should parents be able to sign contracts on their childrens' behalf that will have binding consequences for the entire life of their child? Should a parent be able, for example, to enlist a child in the army as a baby (deferred, of course: basic training at 18, say, followed by a 5 year service obligation)?

If we say no, that these major choices should be left up to the child when he or she is mature and responsible, why not baptism? It's intended to be a lifelong commitment that will be binding on the baptized even when he or she is an adult; shouldn't the adult (or at least the reasonably mature teenager) get a say?

Yes, they should get a say; and they do. As they get older, they must decide for themselves to continue in the faith. Baptism is just the first step; it doesn't "force" them to do anything in the long run, really. If a Catholic wants to cease being Catholic right at this moment, that's their call. I don't see it as being any different than any parent of a particular religious or non-religious persuasion instilling their values or their faith into their children. You raise your kids as best as you can and try to teach them the values and beliefs that you feel are important, but at some point you have to let them go, and it's up to them to make their own choices.

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

In MH's defense, I don't think he's making a strawman as much as he's just failed to meet you in your worldview. He's saying we need to allow the child to grow to the age of accountability and develop those reasoning skills first.

I see the overall point, DS, but it was being made into a a suggestion that Catholics are somehow depriving babies of their "free will" because they baptize them. I was simply pointing out that this is not the case. Mormon parents generally raise their children as Mormons, no? However, at some point, kids raised as Mormons have to make the decision to continue on in Mormonism themselves. Catholics just have a formalized way of introducing their kids to the faith.

 

[rocka21]

in our church , you can sign up for " baby dedication" night. its something we do once a month. Its not infant salvation or anything like that. Its a time for the family to gather around and the chruch " cover" with prayer the young new life and dedicate it to the Lord for his will.

i think as parents, they want to do all THEY can do to give the child a good " start" in the faith.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Baptism is just the first step; it doesn't "force" them to do anything in the long run, really. If a Catholic wants to cease being Catholic right at this moment, that's their call. I don't see it as being any different than any parent of a particular religious or non-religious persuasion instilling their values or their faith into their children.

Another Catholic I know once remarked to me that nobody can stop being Catholic: once a person is baptised in the Catholic Church, that they are considered a Catholic for life. They may become lapsed or even excommunicated, but once a Catholic, always a Catholic. He claimed that baptism leaves an indelible mark on the soul. Do you agree with this?

If you do agree, why would you shrug off baptism as no big deal, as you seem to be doing? It seems odd that you'd describe what the Catholic Church considers to be a sacrament as not being "any different than any parent of a particular religious or non-religious persuasion instilling their values or their faith into their children."

Edit: as I understand it, the Catholic Church teaches that baptism permanently causes the baptised to be seen differently by God, to stand out against the crowd of the unfaithful, and to be judged by a different standard. If this is true, then I'd say that infant baptism definitely does deprive the baptised of free will.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I see the overall point, DS, but it was being made into a a suggestion that Catholics are somehow depriving babies of their "free will" because they baptize them. I was simply pointing out that this is not the case. Mormon parents generally raise their children as Mormons, no? However, at some point, kids raised as Mormons have to make the decision to continue on in Mormonism themselves. Catholics just have a formalized way of introducing their kids to the faith.

I think that the Catholic belief is different in an important way: in considering baptism a sacrament, the Church preaches that it conveys grace. More than just a "formalized way of introducing their kids to the faith", it's considered to be a holy ritual instituted by God. If one believes this to be true, I don't think it's something that one should treat lightly.

 

[rocka21]

Another Catholic I know once remarked to me that nobody can stop being Catholic: once a person is baptised in the Catholic Church, that they are considered a Catholic for life. They may become lapsed or even excommunicated, but once a Catholic, always a Catholic. He claimed that baptism leaves an indelible mark on the soul. Do you agree with this?

If you do agree, why would you shrug off baptism as no big deal, as you seem to be doing? It seems odd that you'd describe what the Catholic Church considers to be a sacrament as not being "any different than any parent of a particular religious or non-religious persuasion instilling their values or their faith into their children."

i think its Bull! i was baptised Catholic as an infant and was in the streets, selling drugs, running with the devil, i was on my way to Hell. I had to make a choice for my salvation, not my parents.

this gets into the practice of the rosery at funerals. they think if they can pack the church with people rubbing beads and praying for you it will help you. LOL

THEY GOT YOU COVERED AT BIRTH AND DEATH!:angel2:

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

i think its Bull! i was baptised Catholic as an infant and was in the streets, selling drugs, running with the devil, i was on my way to Hell. I had to make a choice for my salvation, not my parents.

Regardless of whether you agree with the teaching or not, that is the teaching of the Catholic Church, right?

 

[rocka21]

Regardless of whether you agree with the teaching or not, that is the teaching of the Catholic Church, right?

Right!

i know when i die, a lot of my catholic family members will be there rubbing rosery.

Now if i can just get Beckysoup to stand proxy for me, i will have all bases covered.

I CAN'T LOSE!

HEAVEN HERE I COME!!!!!!

 

[madhatter85]

I see the overall point, DS, but it was being made into a a suggestion that Catholics are somehow depriving babies of their "free will" because they baptize them. I was simply pointing out that this is not the case. Mormon parents generally raise their children as Mormons, no? However, at some point, kids raised as Mormons have to make the decision to continue on in Mormonism themselves. Catholics just have a formalized way of introducing their kids to the faith.

Baptism is a sacred covenant that is not just "joinging a church" it come with it a multitude of things. but how can you understand what you are getting into if you are a infant? you can't, there is no knowledge of what is going on. you're parents can't "save" you, you can only save yourself conciously. it is up to nobody but yourself to enter into covenants with the lord. that is the whole principal of freedom of choice and free-agency. and they try to take it away.

 

[Bishka]

Now if i can just get Beckysoup to stand proxy for me, i will have all bases covered.

I

You aren't my family member and it seems like you do not have any members of your family in the LDS Church, why would your proxy be done if no one wanted it to?

 

[athanasius]

Right!

i know when i die, a lot of my catholic family members will be there rubbing rosery.

Now if i can just get Beckysoup to stand proxy for me, i will have all bases covered.

I CAN'T LOSE!

HEAVEN HERE I COME!!!!!!

Rubbing rosary? Praying the rosary maybe for the souls of the faithful departed but I never rubbed a rosary? Whats that?

 

[Quiddity]

Baptism is a sacred covenant that is not just "joinging a church" it come with it a multitude of things. but how can you understand what you are getting into if you are a infant? you can't, there is no knowledge of what is going on. you're parents can't "save" you, you can only save yourself conciously. it is up to nobody but yourself to enter into covenants with the lord. that is the whole principal of freedom of choice and free-agency. and they try to take it away.

Some adults don't even know what they are getting themselves into. Nevertheless, your issue is with being conscious enough to know what you are doing. Don't worry your mind over it, they will be free to leave the Catholic Church anytime they wish when they are "conscious" enough to do so. Or free to come back if they so choose to. So what's the problem?

 

[athanasius]

Baptism is a sacred covenant that is not just "joinging a church" it come with it a multitude of things. but how can you understand what you are getting into if you are a infant? you can't, there is no knowledge of what is going on. you're parents can't "save" you, you can only save yourself conciously. it is up to nobody but yourself to enter into covenants with the lord. that is the whole principal of freedom of choice and free-agency. and they try to take it away.

Would you say the same thing to the Jew who lived 5000 years ago when they covenanted their 8 day old infants to God in circumcision? Were those children not Jews because their parents made that covenant for them? Was Jesus not a Jew then? Was Jesus free will taken away? Thats silly! Baptism is the new sacrament that replaces the old, the circumcision made without hands so to speak(Col 2:11-13).

 

[Quiddity]

Would you say the same thing to the Jew who lived 5000 years ago when they covenanted their 8 day old infants to God in circumcision? Were those children not Jews because their parents made that covenant for them? Was Jesus not a Jew then? Was Jesus free will taken away? Thats silly! Baptism is the new sacrament that replaces the old, the circumcision made without hands so to speak(Col 2:11-13).

Maybe he thinks God changed his working style? If He did something in the OT, he must not do it in the NT...

It's pretty obvious to me that God had no problem making covenants with an entire family regardles of people's "spiritual state". As if they didn't have the freedom to break the covenant...

 

[Smoke]

Some adults don't even know what they are getting themselves into.

That whole thing about understanding is overrated.

Nevertheless, your issue is with being conscious enough to know what you are doing.

I've noticed that a lot of these churches that refuse to baptize infants have no qualms at all about dedicating the baby to the Lord -- and I think the baby's too young to understand that, too.

 

[Quiddity]

That whole thing about understanding is overrated.

I've noticed that a lot of these churches that refuse to baptize infants have no qualms at all about dedicating the baby to the Lord -- and I think the baby's too young to understand that, too.

Very true...perhaps protestant babies know something catholic babies don't?

 

[athanasius]

Very true...perhaps protestant babies know something catholic babies don't?

LOL! :clap