Infant Baptism - "A Solemn Mockery before God"

[madhatter85]

Would you say the same thing to the Jew who lived 5000 years ago when they covenanted their 8 day old infants to God in circumcision? Were those children not Jews because their parents made that covenant for them? Was Jesus not a Jew then? Was Jesus free will taken away? Thats silly! Baptism is the new sacrament that replaces the old, the circumcision made without hands so to speak(Col 2:11-13).

Because the Atonement had not happened yet, of course, silly Goose!

I wonder if when things got translated they got translated wrong, because we don't baptise untill the age of 8.
and it was stated int eh bible that they should circumsize at 8 days old...

hmm i'm wondering if there wasn't a mis-communication that got written down wrong? maybe a faulty translation from the word year, to the word Day? wow, wouldn't that suck for the jews, and catholics?

 

[madhatter85]

Some adults don't even know what they are getting themselves into. Nevertheless, your issue is with being conscious enough to know what you are doing. Don't worry your mind over it, they will be free to leave the Catholic Church anytime they wish when they are "conscious" enough to do so. Or free to come back if they so choose to. So what's the problem?

if they don;t knwo what they are gettign into, why would they do it? because some priest said that they have to? that's the wrong approach to any covenants. everythign is between you and the lord not you and a priest.

 

[rocka21]

Rubbing rosary? Praying the rosary maybe for the souls of the faithful departed but I never rubbed a rosary? Whats that?

do you rub a rosary when you pray? ...... OK then.

i will clarify rub and pray.

it all goes with the same thou....... infant baptisim ( not accountable for own actions)
praying rosary for dead ( not accountable for own actions)


so as long as that Italian mafia member got baptized at birth and rosarys at death he is ok? as we know they are most cathloic?

 

[Bishka]

do you rub a rosary when you pray? ...... OK then.

i will clarify rub and pray.

it all goes with the same thou....... infant baptisim ( not accountable for own actions)
praying rosary for dead ( not accountable for own actions)


so as long as that Italian mafia member got baptized at birth and rosarys at death he is ok? as we know they are most cathloic?

Everybody cheer for someone trying to explain someone else's doctrine when they have a bias against it.

 

[athanasius]

do you rub a rosary when you pray? ...... OK then.

i will clarify rub and pray.

it all goes with the same thou....... infant baptisim ( not accountable for own actions)
praying rosary for dead ( not accountable for own actions)


so as long as that Italian mafia member got baptized at birth and rosarys at death he is ok? as we know they are most cathloic?

First of all no you are incorrect. I do not rub the rosary when I pray it. I still have no idea what you mean. Ok, Of coarse the infant is not accountable for his actions, he is not old enough to commit personal sin or even know what he is doing yet. But that doesn't mean that he doesn't have original sin that was inherited by our first parents. That is just our nature. Again I have no idea why you would say that the dead are not accountable for their actions. The dead are accountable for their actions and they will be judge by them(Matt 25:31-46, Jn 5:28-29).

You are totally mistaken in your understanding of Catholicism and what we teach. The Church does not teach that you will go to heaven as long as you are baptized and pray the rosary. Baptism is what initially washes away our sins(Acts 22:16, Ez 36:25-27) (original and personal) and enters us into the covenant of Christ(Rom 6:3-6), saving us initially(1 Pet 3:21, Titus 3:5-7, Jn 3;3-5, Mark 16:16). But, as the Catholic Church also teaches once we have been baptized and reached the age of reason then we must begin to work our salvation with fear and trembling(Phil 2:12). Even if we are baptized, if we willfully with full knowledge and free consent commit Mortal sin(1 Jn 5:16-17) then we can forfeit our salvation and make the application of the merits of the Cross useless to us and end up in hell (Heb 10:26-29). Unless we repent with true repentance and confess our sins (1Jn 1:9) then God will be merciful to us and forgive us. So you are mistaken, the Catholic church does not teach what you think. Reading the Catechism should clear up these misconceptions. This in no way discredits the fact that we can and should pray and the rosary and offer intercessions for people living(1 tim 2:1) and deceased(2 Macc 12:39-45) who may be suffering temporarily. This is pleasing to God the Father as we are all called in Christ Jesus to be his body and pray for one another.

Also the rosary is a devotional prayer and not a requirement to get to heaven! If one is in the Mafia, then by Catholic Canon law he is already automatically excommunicated and needs to repent. If he commits mortal sin, then no amount of prayers can help him after he dies because he is already in hell. the mafia by the way know this, as one priest who used to deal with mafia described in a talk I heard. However, we cannot judge the souls of others and we may offer prayers for him just in case he did not die in the state of mortal sin and may be in the process of being cleaned up in purgation. We almost always give the benefit of the doubt to the sinner.

Many Mafia are Catholic but that doesn't really mean anything or discredit the any of the Catholic Churches doctrine anymore than saying that many Christians are sinners and many are Judas's. There will be both wheat and chaff in the Church till the end.

I hope that helps clarify the Catholic point of view to you. I know you may disagree and thats fine but you really need to understand the Catholic churches official teachings and practices before you go making rash statements about our beliefs and practices. the Catechism is a good place to start.

 

[Katzpur]

Of coarse the infant is not accountable for his actions, he is not old enough to commit personal sin or even know what he is doing yet. But that doesn't mean that he doesn't have original sin that was inherited by our first parents. That is just our nature.

Athanasius, I have a question for you. Could you try to explain in your own words, if possible, what the Catholic Church understands "Original Sin" to be. If an infant has Original Sin, what exactly does that mean in terms of his own salvation? Since he is not held accountable for his own actions in infancy, what is he being held accountable for? Adam's sin? I'm afraid I just don't understand what, exactly, his baptism is supposed to accomplish. If he dies without baptism and has committed no sins of his own, will he in any way be punished for what Adam did? If so, why? If not, what did his baptism accomplish?

 

[madhatter85]

do you rub a rosary when you pray? ...... OK then.

i will clarify rub and pray.

it all goes with the same thou....... infant baptisim ( not accountable for own actions)
praying rosary for dead ( not accountable for own actions)


so as long as that Italian mafia member got baptized at birth and rosarys at death he is ok? as we know they are most cathloic?

A little off-topic, They think they can save a person after death by rubbing a rosary?
Yet they don't believe that Baptisms for the dead won't do anything, because the person is already dead? wait.... i think i'm going cross eyed.

They believe that "Adam's original sin" was not taken care of at the time of the Atonement? why would it not be? why would christ die for all the sins of the world, but not all of them? huh? i'm confused, someone explain exactly what infant baptism is supposed to accomplish, since they obviously know that they can't be held accountable for any sins? if their infant "sprinkling" is only because of the "original sin", what about being actually baptized and receiving the gift of the holy ghost? do they offer a second baptism when they get older? huh? someone explain please....

 

[madhatter85]

...That is just our nature. Again I have no idea why you would say that the dead are not accountable for their actions. The dead are accountable for their actions and they will be judge by them(Matt 25:31-46, Jn 5:28-29)....

then -

.....This in no way discredits the fact that we can and should pray and the rosary and offer intercessions for people living(1 tim 2:1) and deceased(2 Macc 12:39-45) who may be suffering temporarily....

and then

....If he commits mortal sin, then no amount of prayers can help him after he dies because he is already in hell. the mafia by the way know this, as one priest who used to deal with mafia described in a talk I heard. However, we cannot judge the souls of others and we may offer prayers for him just in case he did not die in the state of mortal sin and may be in the process of being cleaned up in purgation. We almost always give the benefit of the doubt to the sinner.

This is very contradictory to itself, why offer prayers to try to save the person, but then you say you know you can't, but you do it anyways? to relieve the suffering? why would God throw someone immediately into hell and then say "Wait, let's make him more comfortable down there cause people are praying" Huh? i'm confused, explain please, because this makes it seem like God is a "respecter of persons" which he is not.

 

[rocka21]

Everybody cheer for someone trying to explain someone else's doctrine when they have a bias against it.

just like the OP in this thread.


Cheers....:yes:

 

[Katzpur]

A little off-topic, They think they can save a person after death by rubbing a rosary?

You should have just asked your wife this question, MH. I'm sure she would have told you that Catholics don't believe they can save a person after death by rubbing a rosary. Actually, I find it kind of interesting that Catholics and Mormons (and maybe Orthodox Christians) are the only Christians who believe that there is anything at all that the living can do to help the dead.

 

[madhatter85]

You should have just asked your wife this question, MH. I'm sure she would have told you that Catholics don't believe they can save a person after death by rubbing a rosary. Actually, I find it kind of interesting that Catholics and Mormons (and maybe Orthodox Christians) are the only Christians who believe that there is anything at all that the living can do to help the dead.

i don't talk to my wife about her religion because she doesn't want anythign to do with it anymore. so i might as well ask it here

 

[athanasius]

then -
and then
This is very contradictory to itself, why offer prayers to try to save the person, but then you say you know you can't, but you do it anyways? to relieve the suffering? why would God throw someone immediately into hell and then say "Wait, let's make him more comfortable down there cause people are praying" Huh? i'm confused, explain please, because this makes it seem like God is a "respecter of persons" which he is not.

No one offer prayers to try to save the person after he is dead. A Person in hell cannot be saved. We pray for a person in purgatory because we do not know weather they are in hell or purgatory. No contradiction there. All people in purgatory are saved, they just must be cleaned up first. This entails suffering, a temporal suffering. They suffer, so we pray for them just like we pray for those suffering on earth.

 

[athanasius]

A little off-topic, They think they can save a person after death by rubbing a rosary?
Yet they don't believe that Baptisms for the dead won't do anything, because the person is already dead? wait.... i think i'm going cross eyed.

They believe that "Adam's original sin" was not taken care of at the time of the Atonement? why would it not be? why would christ die for all the sins of the world, but not all of them? huh? i'm confused, someone explain exactly what infant baptism is supposed to accomplish, since they obviously know that they can't be held accountable for any sins? if their infant "sprinkling" is only because of the "original sin", what about being actually baptized and receiving the gift of the holy ghost? do they offer a second baptism when they get older? huh? someone explain please....

No one said that Christ atonement didn't take care of original sin. We say it did, we just see the application of it different than you. The application of this comes through the sacrament of Holy Baptism. The atonement is redemption accomplished, Baptism and the sacraments, especially the Eucharist are redemption applied. Simple really. we believe that the Holy spirit is given at water baptism weathers it be a adult or infant.

 

[rocka21]

No one offer prayers to try to save the person after he is dead. A Person in hell cannot be saved. We pray for a person in purgatory because we do not know weather they are in hell or purgatory. No contradiction there. All people in purgatory are saved, they just must be cleaned up first. This entails suffering, a temporal suffering. They suffer, so we pray for them just like we pray for those suffering on earth.

any biblical examples of this?

 

[Bishka]

any biblical examples of this?

And if there isn't? They aren't Bible-only Christians like yourself. They believe in extra-Biblical revelation, so you cannot hold them to Bible-only when they are much more then that.

 

[athanasius]

any biblical examples of this?

Yes 1 Cor 3:10-15. But even if it didn't we do not need any biblical examples of this necessarily for it to be dogma for a Christian. The bible no were makes that claim that everything has to be in the bible as a matter of fact it says just he opposite.

 

[rocka21]

10According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


this is pergatory?

And if there isn't? They aren't Bible-only Christians like yourself. They believe in extra-Biblical revelation, so you cannot hold them to Bible-only when they are much more then that.
__________________

i know this becky. i was just seeing IF they had biblical reference.

becky butt in my business with another poster count so far on this thread. 2

 

[Smoke]

it all goes with the same thou....... infant baptisim ( not accountable for own actions)
praying rosary for dead ( not accountable for own actions)

so as long as that Italian mafia member got baptized at birth and rosarys at death he is ok? as we know they are most cathloic?

huh? i'm confused, someone explain exactly what infant baptism is supposed to accomplish, since they obviously know that they can't be held accountable for any sins? if their infant "sprinkling" is only because of the "original sin", what about being actually baptized and receiving the gift of the holy ghost? do they offer a second baptism when they get older? huh? someone explain please....

This is very contradictory to itself, why offer prayers to try to save the person, but then you say you know you can't, but you do it anyways? to relieve the suffering? why would God throw someone immediately into hell and then say "Wait, let's make him more comfortable down there cause people are praying"

Huh? i'm confused, explain please, because this makes it seem like God is a "respecter of persons" which he is not.

I'm no great admirer of the Roman Catholic Church, and I'm not too impressed with its doctrine myself. However, both of you are woefully uninformed about that which you're attacking. It might be helpful to read a book on the subject, or look for an online catechism, or even just ask a few respectful questions over in DIR Catholic. If you don't understand what you're attacking, why are you attacking it?

Huh? i'm confused, explain please, because this makes it seem like God is a "respecter of persons" which he is not.

Couldn't you say that about the claim that any prayer is answered?

What I really find absurd is objecting to paedobaptism on the grounds of free agency and intellectual understand, when virtually every Christian church performs some sort of rite over its infants, and makes some sort of Christian commitment on the infant's behalf. For example:

in our church , you can sign up for " baby dedication" night. its something we do once a month. ... Its a time for the family to gather around and the chruch " cover" with prayer the young new life and dedicate it to the Lord for his will.

Paedobaptists have their rites for infants, and anabaptists have their own rites for infants. Kettle, Pot is calling on line one.

Its not infant salvation or anything like that.

Here's where a lot of the problem lies. Christian churches have such diverse beliefs on original sin, salvation, and the mysteries/sacraments/ordinances/rites of the church, that it's ludicrous to discuss whether paedobaptism or anabaptism is right or wrong in isolation, as if there were no larger context in which each church performs its baptisms.

 

[athanasius]

10According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


this is pergatory?






i know this becky. i was just seeing IF they had biblical reference.

becky butt in my business with another poster count so far on this thread. 2

Yes this is purgatory to us

 

[rocka21]

Yes this is purgatory to us

Ok, thanks athanasius.

see how easy that was becky?:yes: