Inference and Assumption

[A Vestigial Mote]

In Conversation with other Christians and even non Christians ,it seems as though a lot of what they believe is not always what the bible actually says.
What i mean by this is when someone will say the bible ' teaches ' this and that ,when this is often at the cost of what the bible actually SAYS . A lot of the time its usually 'inference ' . " oh I know it doesn't say such and such ,but this is what it really means. And I'm not talking about difficult things like the trinity ,in which we will struggle with as its something that we do not experience in our limited dimension/ experience. I'm referring to the basics , the essentials in which we should expect God to have wanted to be understood plainly .
Syllogism, Inference , assumption and deduction seems to be the slippery approach to the bible in which we can almost make the verses say what we want because we reading INTO the verses instead of allowing the bible to SAY what it means .
Non Christians do this when they already have a presupposition/ paradigm / worldview ,and they approach the bible and instead of reading what the bible SAYS they will impose an interpretation because they feel its inferring something they already believe . Sadly Christians also do this . Were all not immune from presuppositions and our minds tend to fill in what we already assume through bias ect . But let's test if we believe what we believe by what the bible SAYS .
Take what you believe about the bible and see if what you believe there is a verse or verses that SAY what you believe . Of course context matters . The who , what, when why and where questions apply and normal reading comprehension .
You can also test me if I can back up what I believe by demonstrating by what the bible SAYS and not always what is inferred or assumed .

This idea of taking "what is being said" as... well... what is being said is going to bite you in the butt as a Christian just as often as it might "help" you ward off attacks by non-Christians, or fend off the bad assumptions made by other Christians.

For example - one of my favorite "let's read it for what it says" passages of The Bible is this:

For the Son of Man will come in His Father’s glory with His angels, and then He will repay each one according to what he has done. Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.

From what I can see/read Jesus is basically telling the people gathered that the "Son of Man" will come with angels in tow and will do something to everyone according to "what they have done" - which one might assume are the good/bad/etc. deeds, or how well one has lived up to the code of conduct God expects or something. The interesting thing is then that he states there are those present in the audience who will still be alive when this transpires. But that simply didn't happen. The only way I see out of this is to claim that "the Son of Man [coming] in His Father’s glory with His angels" is not, in any way tied to "the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." And that therefore "the Son of Man coming in his kingdom" can be claimed to have already happened, and be attributed to some random event or happenstance, while we are still waiting to see all these angels arrive and dole out just desserts to everyone for "what they have done." But then - why are these sentences paired together, and stated in basically the same breath?

 

[sojourner]

I was merely saying I came to know God in a different way than you are and had no reason to doubt the Bible or God. I’m not a scientist or archeologist and it wasn’t until people brought up the “there is no evidence” comments that I started looking into these claims. I’ve found these claims to be false. For example if archeology found the walls of Jericho and determined they fell by an earthquake and then concluded the story was false then I would say that conclusion was wrong and the biblical narrative correct.
The Walls of Jericho

1) you have no idea how I have come to know God. Everyone’s encounter with the Divine is special.
2) so, you’re anti-science, then?

 

[ElishaElijah]

1) you have no idea how I have come to know God. Everyone’s encounter with the Divine is special.
2) so, you’re anti-science, then?

At least you’re giving up on the false 0 archeological evidence.
Yes, I do know how a person can know God, Jesus showed and provided the way, all written down in the Bible.
Not anti science, are you anti hammer when you need to test an electrical circuit? I’d rather use a electrical meter/tester.

 

[PureX]

Could you give an example?

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men." - King James Version

"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes,which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2 The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life,which was with the Father and has appeared to us. 3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4 We write this to make our joy complete." - International Version

"In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men." - English Standard Version

These are all translations based on interpretations of the original texts, which we, now, must in turn translate into our own understanding of the meaning being implied.

 

[sojourner]

At least you’re giving up on the false 0 archeological evidence.
Yes, I do know how a person can know God, Jesus showed and provided the way, all written down in the Bible.
Not anti science, are you anti hammer when you need to test an electrical circuit? I’d rather use a electrical meter/tester.

No, I’m not giving up on it, because it’s not false.

Your confused here. Science is the electrical tester. The Bible is the hammer in this case. That does make you anti-science, because you prefer anecdotal stories over scientific fact.

 

[ElishaElijah]

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men." - King James Version

"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes,which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2 The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life,which was with the Father and has appeared to us. 3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4 We write this to make our joy complete." - International Version

"In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men." - English Standard Version

These are all translations based on interpretations of the original texts, which we, now, must in turn translate into our own understanding of the meaning being implied.

2021 Holy Bible Translation Comparison Chart | GOD’S WORD Bible

 

[PureX]

2021 Holy Bible Translation Comparison Chart | GOD’S WORD Bible

C'mon, dude. That's just an advertisement for a particular translation.

 

[ElishaElijah]

No, I’m not giving up on it, because it’s not false.

Your confused here. Science is the electrical tester. The Bible is the hammer in this case. That does make you anti-science, because you prefer anecdotal stories over scientific fact.

Science doesn’t deal with spiritual or unseen things only physical matters. So use whatever tool you have for that but up to today you don’t know God.

 

[ElishaElijah]

C'mon, dude. That's just an advertisement for a particular translation.

It explains the differences in the Bible translations, did you already know that? Didn’t seem like it by your comments.

 

[ElishaElijah]

C'mon, dude. That's just an advertisement for a particular translation.

Guess you can figure it out on your own, download the chart for reference or don’t, I don’t care, up to you.

 

[PureX]

Guess you can figure it out on your own, download the chart for reference or don’t, I don’t care, up to you.

Everyone figures it out for themselves. That's my point. It's how language works. Words aren't objects. They're symbols representing idea-sets. And those ideas vary from mind to mind. When I write "shiny red firetruck" you might think I'm being quite specific. And yet the idea-set that comes into your mind, and the idea-set that's in my mind are likely to be very different.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Everyone figures it out for themselves. That's my point. It's how language works. Words aren't objects. They're symbols representing idea-sets. And those ideas vary from mind to mind. When I write "shiny red firetruck" you might think I'm being quite specific. And yet the idea-set that comes into your mind, and the idea-set that's in my mind are likely to be very different.

Ok great, there are ways to find that out but you can figure that out on your own.

 

[PureX]

Ok great, there are ways to find that out but you can figure that out on your own.

I know. That's my point. We DO figure it out on our own. Which is why we all "figure out" something a little different from everyone else.

 

[John1.12]

This idea of taking "what is being said" as... well... what is being said is going to bite you in the butt as a Christian just as often as it might "help" you ward off attacks by non-Christians, or fend off the bad assumptions made by other Christians.

For example - one of my favorite "let's read it for what it says" passages of The Bible is this:



From what I can see/read Jesus is basically telling the people gathered that the "Son of Man" will come with angels in tow and will do something to everyone according to "what they have done" - which one might assume are the good/bad/etc. deeds, or how well one has lived up to the code of conduct God expects or something. The interesting thing is then that he states there are those present in the audience who will still be alive when this transpires. But that simply didn't happen. The only way I see out of this is to claim that "the Son of Man [coming] in His Father’s glory with His angels" is not, in any way tied to "the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." And that therefore "the Son of Man coming in his kingdom" can be claimed to have already happened, and be attributed to some random event or happenstance, while we are still waiting to see all these angels arrive and dole out just desserts to everyone for "what they have done." But then - why are these sentences paired together, and stated in basically the same breath?

” The men referred to by “There be some standing here” are Peter, James, and John, who were standing there, who did NOT die till they saw the Son of Man coming, but what they saw was not a spiritual kingdom at Pentecost, but a glorified Christ attended by Moses and Elijah (see Mal. 4; Matt. 17:1–5; 2 Pet. 1:16–19). The actuality of the fulfillment of this vision is as sure as sunrise and sunset.

 

[John1.12]

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men." - King James Version

"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes,which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2 The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life,which was with the Father and has appeared to us. 3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4 We write this to make our joy complete." - International Version

"In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men." - English Standard Version

These are all translations based on interpretations of the original texts, which we, now, must in turn translate into our own understanding of the meaning being implied.

Not all translations are equal. I use the Kjv . I would not use the other two ,which come from ' Alexandria ' .

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

” The men referred to by “There be some standing here” are Peter, James, and John, who were standing there, who did NOT die till they saw the Son of Man coming, but what they saw was not a spiritual kingdom at Pentecost, but a glorified Christ attended by Moses and Elijah (see Mal. 4; Matt. 17:1–5; 2 Pet. 1:16–19). The actuality of the fulfillment of this vision is as sure as sunrise and sunset.

Hmm... doesn't seem to be as spectacular an event as Jesus seemed to be promising. But okay, I'll bite. This only raises more questions (as always): Where did they witness "each one [being repayed] according to what he has done?" How is that part of Jesus' proclamation brought to bear (as you claim) in Matthew 17:1-5? Note that I do not accept what is written as "Peter 1:16-19" to be the culmination of this - because this is a completely different passage that doesn't seem related to the EVENT described in Matthew in any way). In order for it to be relatable, those being "repayed according to what [they have] done" would have to be done by both Jesus and his angels (in your interpretation, Moses and Elijah) - or at the very least, during that time when "The Son of Man" was accompanied by his angels to set about doing that task as Jesus was quoted as saying. Again - we're reading WHAT IS WRITTEN - not what you want to be written, nor what is written in one part and how another, completely separate part seems to maybe, possibly, make mention of something that kind of resembles what was being talked about originally. That isn't going to fly.

Not only this, but we're now talking about Matthew 16:27-28, and then following right up with your quote Matthew 17:1-5, wherein the passage even lays out the time frame of only six days later (plus probably some unaccounted for time). It just seems really, REALLY odd that Jesus would even worry about mentioning that there would "be some here not yet dead" when these miraculous things (angels descending with the "Son of Man" to dole out what each was owed for service or lack thereof) took place. Why mention the prospect of "death" (which would statistically be many years away in most men's accounts) when this thing that was supposedly going to happen was going to happen within a week or so? That's just very very very very odd.

In other words - I still don't buy it. You're making very vast stretches here... and NOT "just reading the text" for what it says. Of course... you aren't the first - just as you have noted in your OP.

 

[PureX]

Not all translations are equal. I use the Kjv . I would not use the other two ,which come from ' Alexandria ' .

My point would be that unless I am an historian, I really don't care what meaning was originally intended. I care about the value of the meaning I can derive from it for myself, here and now. I wouldn't choose a translation for it's supposed historical accuracy. I would choose it for it's contemporary applicability.

I am endlessly puzzled by the number of people who are not historians, and yet hold supposed historical accuracy as their ultimate biblical ideal. Why?

 

[ElishaElijah]

C'mon, dude. That's just an advertisement for a particular translation.

I can see how you said this after looking at the webpage again. I didn’t even think about that part, just the chart.

 

[sojourner]

Science doesn’t deal with spiritual or unseen things only physical matters. So use whatever tool you have for that but up to today you don’t know God.

Determine empirical facts, such as the presence of a particular culture in a particular place is a physical matter.

you don’t have enough information to determine my spiritual condition.

 

[sojourner]

” The men referred to by “There be some standing here” are Peter, James, and John, who were standing there, who did NOT die till they saw the Son of Man coming, but what they saw was not a spiritual kingdom at Pentecost, but a glorified Christ attended by Moses and Elijah (see Mal. 4; Matt. 17:1–5; 2 Pet. 1:16–19). The actuality of the fulfillment of this vision is as sure as sunrise and sunset.

No, that’s not how it works.