Information in the Genome

[A Vestigial Mote]

Why? What makes A-K a lower entropy than any other combination?

I was going to ask the same thing - only to a mind that perhaps already understands the relationships between the cards and suits does the particular, cited order of the cards divulge a greater amount of information using less information. In other words - parts of the information are ALREADY IN PLACE in the mind you can divulge this "low information" version of ordering to. Parts like the consecutive ordering of our human numbering system, or what order the face cards are from a perception-based "least" to "greatest".

Whereas, stating something like "From most graphical elements separated by white-space to least with ties broken in the order of diamonds, hearts, clubs and spades in that order" could still get you good results with low information overhead. It's all rather arbitrary without leaning on further systems comprising or outsourcing the processing of fairly vast sets of information (eyes that can discern colors and shapes, for example).

 

[Wildswanderer]

No. Guesswork is not logical. To be logical uou need valid evidence of an intelligence which you do not have.

You are forgetting time, approximately 3 billion years, that's 3e9 or 3,000,000,000 years. A big chunk off 1e50
Then
Each human (and many higher animals) each have between 85 and 140 genetic mutations at birth.
You are also forgetting environmental necessity.

10^50 is just a wild guess of creationists with no grounding in real life

The magic wand of time solution, lol!

 

[ChristineM]

The magic wand of time solution, lol!

Well that was expected, creationists always mock the time aspect because they have no argument against it. Thanks for your support.

 

[sealchan]

The genome is the entire set of instructions found within a cell. How is information within the genome reconciled with the second law of thermodynamics?

Entropy and Information

The one who thought up information theory, Claude Shannon, explains that information is the reduction of uncertainty. You have a book with no cover or title so you are uncertain what is in it. So you open it and start to read it, thus reducing uncertainty of what it is about and increase your knowledge of it.

The smallest level of information according to information theory is a bit. Imagine flipping a coin you have .5 chance of heads and .5 chance of tails. 1(head) = -1 log (.5) = 1 bit.

Thus encoding of a system can be accomplished using the lowest bit of information, say a computer, or the DNA. An intelligence is able to reduce uncertainty or create a machine to reduce it and thusly increase the information (knowledge).

On accepting evolution you need an explanation of how it reduces uncertainty and increases information. Give a reason syntax and semantics occurs in the sequence of nucleotides.

Encoding information in the DNA

How did evolution know how to describe lower entropy states and increase information?

Imagine a deck of cards. A-K suited is the lower entropy state. We can use less bits of information to explain the state of the cards in order saying Spades are first, Diamonds second, then Clubs, and finally Hearts. All the information required is here to explain the order of the cards. But shuffle them up. Now you need more information to explain the order of the cards. KD - 2H - 8C - 10S etc. More information is required to explain a deck of shuffled cards. So reducing the deck to its lowest entropy state reduces the amount of information required to explain the order they are in.

Now a deck has 52 cards, to factor it is astronomically high! There are 8.0658*10^67 combinations. If you take the supposed age of the universe (13.8 billion years) its not enough time to cover all the possibilities to occur. Check this out:

Now, out of the 8.0658*10^67 combinations of the 52 deck card, only 24 can be in the lowest entropy state, A-K, Spades, Diamonds, Hearts, Clubs.

An intelligent mind can, with ease, reduce the card to its lowest entropy state. That is because intelligent minds, which we have (or machines which we can create) can reduce the uncertainty and increase the information in the system.

A believer in evolution needs to explain how it reduces uncertainty and increases the information. Question, how does nature (unthinking and unintelligent) know information to describe lower entropy state? In other words, since it doesn't and can't know it is all random chance, how does it reduce a system like a deck of cards to its lowest 24 entropy states out of 8.0658*10^67 different combinations? Now remember it would take longer than the existence of our universe (13.8 billion) to just do this with a deck of cards by random chance.

So for those who profess faith in a natural interpretation of evolution, how do you explain this unintelligent force behind it being able to reduce entropy and increase information in a system?

We took the example of a deck of cards that has 52 cards. Now remember it would take longer than the age of the universe to even try and shuffle these into their lowest entropy state by chance. The human genome has 3 billion base pairs! The intelligent human mind cannot even begin to compute that. So let's take something easier. mycoplasma genitalium, it only has 580,070 base pairs and codes for 525 genes. To get this genome nature is dealing with 580,00 different combinations (not 52).

To get the genome of a mycoplasma genitalium we are not dealing with 52 different combinations but 580,000!

Remember what they taught us in school about the second law of thermodynamics (I think it was first year Chemistry for me), it states that it destroys any increase in information. That is, any system left alone tends to a state of decay, disorder, in other words: entropy.

Do you understand what this is saying? Unless you have an intelligence to decrease uncertainty and thus increase information in a system, information itself can never originate or increase. The second law of thermodynamics, entropy, makes it impossible. In an open system entropy can be reduced and you can get an ordered system like a diamond. But it does not allow for the sun shining on a puddle of mud to get a reduction of uncertainty and increase in knowledge to build a machine that can encode information.

Thus the genome. Look at the relation between nucleotide bases and amino acids. How does chance decide the sequence of GTC to code for valine instead of leucine?

Why does random chance need a genetic code? We can understand, with ease, why an intelligent designer would use a genetic code. It is needed to enconde information to get around the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

The 2nd law of thermodynamics destroys any chance of an increase of information in a system., you need designed machinery to get past the state of entropy. Thus, you need a mind that has knowledge of the information needed to describe the state of a system and encode it in the sequence of the storage medium.

Does reading that paragraph bring to your mind a computer programmer? In a computer program bits of information do not just coalesce to create the computer. You need a mind designing the program language, and assembling the code, reducing the uncertainty, and increasing the information for the program.

Thusly, you need transistors and gates. Start with the byte which is 8 bits and an electrical charge = 1 and no electrical charge = 0. A human mind can manipulate information needed to build the machine.

A diamond = lowest entropy state. a diamond watch = highly designed. A watch needs a coder to increase the knowledge in the system and decrease the lower entropy state, capisce?

So how did the genome come to be? Why would random chance create a code where nucleotide base codes for amino acids? Why would nature have a transcription and translation process? Why would blind chance form a polypeptide chain of a sequence of amino acids to encode on a gene? What makes it build molecular machinery to decode the information? How does it make it so there is a correlation between digital and analog data? Why is there syntax and semantics?

If you can just shine the lights ray on a puddle of mud and get life then why do amino acids reduce to proteins? Amino acids don't naturally form sequences of proteins.

There are roughly 500 amino acids identified in nature. 20 amino acids make up the proteins found in the human body.

20 Amino Acids that Make Up Proteins | Enhancing Life with Amino Acids | About the Ajinomoto Group | Ajinomoto Group Global Website - Eat Well, Live Well.

How did nature select 20 amino acids to end up in the human genome? When and how did nature decide on just 20?

Essential amino acids cannot be made by the body. They must come from food.
Amino acids: MedlinePlus Medical Encyclopedia

How did nature create a genetic code that included amino acids that a human would need before humans existed?

Please stop and ponder on that question. There are amino acids required for human life that aren't made by the human body, yet the human genome included these amino acids in its genetic code before we even came into existence.

How does blind chance know we needed these amino acids and encode them on the sequences of DNA? How does nature do this when the sun destroys DNA?

Sunlight damages DNA in the dark

They found that UVA radiation, the main type of UV light that comes from the Sun and from tanning beds, creates melanin by-products that damage DNA
Sunlight damages DNA in the dark - Nature

And how does the encoding system even have a meaning unless the meaning is assigned to it? We have a written language of English. Computers have programing languages. But the characters in the language have no meaning unless an intelligence gives it meaning.

So here is the question. Considering bits have to be designed to encode information (like on a computer, using a symbols given meaning by an intelligence) how does chance know how many bits describes a low entropy state? How can nature then build a machine to encode the information with symbols (in this case amino acids in the DNA) in the sequences of a storage medium in the face of the 2nd law of thermodynamics? And we aren't even beginning to deal with the impossible odds of reducing a 3 billion base pair to its lowest entropy state.

The simple answer is that information can be created without the creator explicitly knowing it. That is the evolution of life as such has no conscious awareness that it is producing any sort of order at all. The evolutionary process does not seek a goal or interpret the outcomes of its development in a way independent of the development itself.

The information that is created is created in a very long and circumspect manner such that plenty of entropy is produced in order to more than make up for the order produced by the presnse of that DNA.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Well that was expected, creationists always mock the time aspect because they have no argument against it. Thanks for your support.

If something is impossible adding time doesn't change that.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Did a little detective work for a bit more of a layman's take on the matter....



Information Theory - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics

 

[gnostic]

That is exactly the point. The odds of it coming together by mere chance make it so that it is impossible.

An event that has a probability of 10^50 is considered an impossibility. We are dealing with chances much much much greater than these. At such a staggering level more that it would take blind faith to believe it happened by chance.

You are using different types of entropy (natural vs artificial) and you are using deck of card to illustrate nature, are just as baseless and irrelevant as using the Watchmaker analogy, and other similar “designed needing designer” analogies, eg computer design analogy, car design analogy, etc.

These faulty analogies have nothing to do with biology, genetics or with evolutionary biology.

Analogy isn’t a scientific explanation, because they are often misleading, because you are comparing one thing that are often completely unrelated to another thing.

It would be like comparing lemon with yellow Ferrari supercar in an analogy, where except for describing their colors, they are nothing alike, physically.

Analogies often used very superficial comparisons.

Analogies are more suited for poetry, religious scriptures, psychology, and philosophies, they not useful in natural sciences.

 

[gnostic]

The magic wand of time solution, lol!

Well that was expected, creationists always mock the time aspect because they have no argument against it. Thanks for your support.

No, creationists like to make up times, to suit whatever time they wanted them to be.

Like the idiocy of taking this passage literally as fact:

8 But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like one day.

What they (creationists, as well as literal theists) failed to understand is that this passage was only a simile, so it was meant to be taken metaphorically or symbolic, not meant to be interpreted literally.

They like this passage, because it allowed them to make up any numbers of time they like. This is why some creationists (eg Ken Ham) can make dinosaurs living in the same period of Adam to Noah.

 

[Wildswanderer]

What they (creationists, as well as literal theists) failed to understand is that this passage was only a simile, so it was meant to be taken metaphorically

They do no such thing. We understand a day and a thousand years aren't literally the same.

 

[blü 2]

The genome is the entire set of instructions found within a cell. How is information within the genome reconciled with the second law of thermodynamics?

Entropy and Information

The one who thought up information theory, Claude Shannon, explains that information is the reduction of uncertainty. You have a book with no cover or title so you are uncertain what is in it. So you open it and start to read it, thus reducing uncertainty of what it is about and increase your knowledge of it.

The smallest level of information according to information theory is a bit. Imagine flipping a coin you have .5 chance of heads and .5 chance of tails. 1(head) = -1 log (.5) = 1 bit.

Thus encoding of a system can be accomplished using the lowest bit of information, say a computer, or the DNA. An intelligence is able to reduce uncertainty or create a machine to reduce it and thusly increase the information (knowledge).

On accepting evolution you need an explanation of how it reduces uncertainty and increases information. Give a reason syntax and semantics occurs in the sequence of nucleotides.

Encoding information in the DNA

How did evolution know how to describe lower entropy states and increase information?

Imagine a deck of cards. A-K suited is the lower entropy state. We can use less bits of information to explain the state of the cards in order saying Spades are first, Diamonds second, then Clubs, and finally Hearts. All the information required is here to explain the order of the cards. But shuffle them up. Now you need more information to explain the order of the cards. KD - 2H - 8C - 10S etc. More information is required to explain a deck of shuffled cards. So reducing the deck to its lowest entropy state reduces the amount of information required to explain the order they are in.

Now a deck has 52 cards, to factor it is astronomically high! There are 8.0658*10^67 combinations. If you take the supposed age of the universe (13.8 billion years) its not enough time to cover all the possibilities to occur. Check this out:

Now, out of the 8.0658*10^67 combinations of the 52 deck card, only 24 can be in the lowest entropy state, A-K, Spades, Diamonds, Hearts, Clubs.

An intelligent mind can, with ease, reduce the card to its lowest entropy state. That is because intelligent minds, which we have (or machines which we can create) can reduce the uncertainty and increase the information in the system.

A believer in evolution needs to explain how it reduces uncertainty and increases the information. Question, how does nature (unthinking and unintelligent) know information to describe lower entropy state? In other words, since it doesn't and can't know it is all random chance, how does it reduce a system like a deck of cards to its lowest 24 entropy states out of 8.0658*10^67 different combinations? Now remember it would take longer than the existence of our universe (13.8 billion) to just do this with a deck of cards by random chance.

So for those who profess faith in a natural interpretation of evolution, how do you explain this unintelligent force behind it being able to reduce entropy and increase information in a system?

We took the example of a deck of cards that has 52 cards. Now remember it would take longer than the age of the universe to even try and shuffle these into their lowest entropy state by chance. The human genome has 3 billion base pairs! The intelligent human mind cannot even begin to compute that. So let's take something easier. mycoplasma genitalium, it only has 580,070 base pairs and codes for 525 genes. To get this genome nature is dealing with 580,00 different combinations (not 52).

To get the genome of a mycoplasma genitalium we are not dealing with 52 different combinations but 580,000!

Remember what they taught us in school about the second law of thermodynamics (I think it was first year Chemistry for me), it states that it destroys any increase in information. That is, any system left alone tends to a state of decay, disorder, in other words: entropy.

Do you understand what this is saying? Unless you have an intelligence to decrease uncertainty and thus increase information in a system, information itself can never originate or increase. The second law of thermodynamics, entropy, makes it impossible. In an open system entropy can be reduced and you can get an ordered system like a diamond. But it does not allow for the sun shining on a puddle of mud to get a reduction of uncertainty and increase in knowledge to build a machine that can encode information.

Thus the genome. Look at the relation between nucleotide bases and amino acids. How does chance decide the sequence of GTC to code for valine instead of leucine?

Why does random chance need a genetic code? We can understand, with ease, why an intelligent designer would use a genetic code. It is needed to enconde information to get around the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

The 2nd law of thermodynamics destroys any chance of an increase of information in a system., you need designed machinery to get past the state of entropy. Thus, you need a mind that has knowledge of the information needed to describe the state of a system and encode it in the sequence of the storage medium.

Does reading that paragraph bring to your mind a computer programmer? In a computer program bits of information do not just coalesce to create the computer. You need a mind designing the program language, and assembling the code, reducing the uncertainty, and increasing the information for the program.

Thusly, you need transistors and gates. Start with the byte which is 8 bits and an electrical charge = 1 and no electrical charge = 0. A human mind can manipulate information needed to build the machine.

A diamond = lowest entropy state. a diamond watch = highly designed. A watch needs a coder to increase the knowledge in the system and decrease the lower entropy state, capisce?

So how did the genome come to be? Why would random chance create a code where nucleotide base codes for amino acids? Why would nature have a transcription and translation process? Why would blind chance form a polypeptide chain of a sequence of amino acids to encode on a gene? What makes it build molecular machinery to decode the information? How does it make it so there is a correlation between digital and analog data? Why is there syntax and semantics?

If you can just shine the lights ray on a puddle of mud and get life then why do amino acids reduce to proteins? Amino acids don't naturally form sequences of proteins.

There are roughly 500 amino acids identified in nature. 20 amino acids make up the proteins found in the human body.

20 Amino Acids that Make Up Proteins | Enhancing Life with Amino Acids | About the Ajinomoto Group | Ajinomoto Group Global Website - Eat Well, Live Well.

How did nature select 20 amino acids to end up in the human genome? When and how did nature decide on just 20?

Essential amino acids cannot be made by the body. They must come from food.
Amino acids: MedlinePlus Medical Encyclopedia

How did nature create a genetic code that included amino acids that a human would need before humans existed?

Please stop and ponder on that question. There are amino acids required for human life that aren't made by the human body, yet the human genome included these amino acids in its genetic code before we even came into existence.

How does blind chance know we needed these amino acids and encode them on the sequences of DNA? How does nature do this when the sun destroys DNA?

Sunlight damages DNA in the dark

They found that UVA radiation, the main type of UV light that comes from the Sun and from tanning beds, creates melanin by-products that damage DNA
Sunlight damages DNA in the dark - Nature

And how does the encoding system even have a meaning unless the meaning is assigned to it? We have a written language of English. Computers have programing languages. But the characters in the language have no meaning unless an intelligence gives it meaning.

So here is the question. Considering bits have to be designed to encode information (like on a computer, using a symbols given meaning by an intelligence) how does chance know how many bits describes a low entropy state? How can nature then build a machine to encode the information with symbols (in this case amino acids in the DNA) in the sequences of a storage medium in the face of the 2nd law of thermodynamics? And we aren't even beginning to deal with the impossible odds of reducing a 3 billion base pair to its lowest entropy state.

Maths isn't my speciality, but how can a pack of cards be said to have a "lowest entropy state" of its own? As far as the cards are concerned, AKQJ is no more "orderly" than 2760, or A2A9. A human has to impose values (to his or her own taste) before there can be "order" of that kind, no? And no such imposition is objectively more or less valid than any other, no?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

The genome is the entire set of instructions found within a cell. How is information within the genome reconciled with the second law of thermodynamics?

Entropy and Information

The one who thought up information theory, Claude Shannon, explains that information is the reduction of uncertainty. You have a book with no cover or title so you are uncertain what is in it. So you open it and start to read it, thus reducing uncertainty of what it is about and increase your knowledge of it.

The smallest level of information according to information theory is a bit. Imagine flipping a coin you have .5 chance of heads and .5 chance of tails. 1(head) = -1 log (.5) = 1 bit.

Thus encoding of a system can be accomplished using the lowest bit of information, say a computer, or the DNA. An intelligence is able to reduce uncertainty or create a machine to reduce it and thusly increase the information (knowledge).

On accepting evolution you need an explanation of how it reduces uncertainty and increases information. Give a reason syntax and semantics occurs in the sequence of nucleotides.

Encoding information in the DNA

How did evolution know how to describe lower entropy states and increase information?

Imagine a deck of cards. A-K suited is the lower entropy state. We can use less bits of information to explain the state of the cards in order saying Spades are first, Diamonds second, then Clubs, and finally Hearts. All the information required is here to explain the order of the cards. But shuffle them up. Now you need more information to explain the order of the cards. KD - 2H - 8C - 10S etc. More information is required to explain a deck of shuffled cards. So reducing the deck to its lowest entropy state reduces the amount of information required to explain the order they are in.

Now a deck has 52 cards, to factor it is astronomically high! There are 8.0658*10^67 combinations. If you take the supposed age of the universe (13.8 billion years) its not enough time to cover all the possibilities to occur. Check this out:

Now, out of the 8.0658*10^67 combinations of the 52 deck card, only 24 can be in the lowest entropy state, A-K, Spades, Diamonds, Hearts, Clubs.

An intelligent mind can, with ease, reduce the card to its lowest entropy state. That is because intelligent minds, which we have (or machines which we can create) can reduce the uncertainty and increase the information in the system.

A believer in evolution needs to explain how it reduces uncertainty and increases the information. Question, how does nature (unthinking and unintelligent) know information to describe lower entropy state? In other words, since it doesn't and can't know it is all random chance, how does it reduce a system like a deck of cards to its lowest 24 entropy states out of 8.0658*10^67 different combinations? Now remember it would take longer than the existence of our universe (13.8 billion) to just do this with a deck of cards by random chance.

So for those who profess faith in a natural interpretation of evolution, how do you explain this unintelligent force behind it being able to reduce entropy and increase information in a system?

We took the example of a deck of cards that has 52 cards. Now remember it would take longer than the age of the universe to even try and shuffle these into their lowest entropy state by chance. The human genome has 3 billion base pairs! The intelligent human mind cannot even begin to compute that. So let's take something easier. mycoplasma genitalium, it only has 580,070 base pairs and codes for 525 genes. To get this genome nature is dealing with 580,00 different combinations (not 52).

To get the genome of a mycoplasma genitalium we are not dealing with 52 different combinations but 580,000!

Remember what they taught us in school about the second law of thermodynamics (I think it was first year Chemistry for me), it states that it destroys any increase in information. That is, any system left alone tends to a state of decay, disorder, in other words: entropy.

Do you understand what this is saying? Unless you have an intelligence to decrease uncertainty and thus increase information in a system, information itself can never originate or increase. The second law of thermodynamics, entropy, makes it impossible. In an open system entropy can be reduced and you can get an ordered system like a diamond. But it does not allow for the sun shining on a puddle of mud to get a reduction of uncertainty and increase in knowledge to build a machine that can encode information.

Thus the genome. Look at the relation between nucleotide bases and amino acids. How does chance decide the sequence of GTC to code for valine instead of leucine?

Why does random chance need a genetic code? We can understand, with ease, why an intelligent designer would use a genetic code. It is needed to enconde information to get around the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

The 2nd law of thermodynamics destroys any chance of an increase of information in a system., you need designed machinery to get past the state of entropy. Thus, you need a mind that has knowledge of the information needed to describe the state of a system and encode it in the sequence of the storage medium.

Does reading that paragraph bring to your mind a computer programmer? In a computer program bits of information do not just coalesce to create the computer. You need a mind designing the program language, and assembling the code, reducing the uncertainty, and increasing the information for the program.

Thusly, you need transistors and gates. Start with the byte which is 8 bits and an electrical charge = 1 and no electrical charge = 0. A human mind can manipulate information needed to build the machine.

A diamond = lowest entropy state. a diamond watch = highly designed. A watch needs a coder to increase the knowledge in the system and decrease the lower entropy state, capisce?

So how did the genome come to be? Why would random chance create a code where nucleotide base codes for amino acids? Why would nature have a transcription and translation process? Why would blind chance form a polypeptide chain of a sequence of amino acids to encode on a gene? What makes it build molecular machinery to decode the information? How does it make it so there is a correlation between digital and analog data? Why is there syntax and semantics?

If you can just shine the lights ray on a puddle of mud and get life then why do amino acids reduce to proteins? Amino acids don't naturally form sequences of proteins.

There are roughly 500 amino acids identified in nature. 20 amino acids make up the proteins found in the human body.

20 Amino Acids that Make Up Proteins | Enhancing Life with Amino Acids | About the Ajinomoto Group | Ajinomoto Group Global Website - Eat Well, Live Well.

How did nature select 20 amino acids to end up in the human genome? When and how did nature decide on just 20?

Essential amino acids cannot be made by the body. They must come from food.
Amino acids: MedlinePlus Medical Encyclopedia

How did nature create a genetic code that included amino acids that a human would need before humans existed?

Please stop and ponder on that question. There are amino acids required for human life that aren't made by the human body, yet the human genome included these amino acids in its genetic code before we even came into existence.

How does blind chance know we needed these amino acids and encode them on the sequences of DNA? How does nature do this when the sun destroys DNA?

Sunlight damages DNA in the dark

They found that UVA radiation, the main type of UV light that comes from the Sun and from tanning beds, creates melanin by-products that damage DNA
Sunlight damages DNA in the dark - Nature

And how does the encoding system even have a meaning unless the meaning is assigned to it? We have a written language of English. Computers have programing languages. But the characters in the language have no meaning unless an intelligence gives it meaning.

So here is the question. Considering bits have to be designed to encode information (like on a computer, using a symbols given meaning by an intelligence) how does chance know how many bits describes a low entropy state? How can nature then build a machine to encode the information with symbols (in this case amino acids in the DNA) in the sequences of a storage medium in the face of the 2nd law of thermodynamics? And we aren't even beginning to deal with the impossible odds of reducing a 3 billion base pair to its lowest entropy state.

You are ignoring a fundamental when considering "entropy:" it occurs in a "system," and that system can be open, closed or isolated, and all are different. Therefore, comparisons as you've tried to make do not make sense.

 

[rational experiences]

A human is in entirety self present first as the whole host man human present supported by every presence first before study or thesis about any human character or topic.

Why you said you were the God so you wouldn't destroy created present creation actually.

 

[Heyo]

Maths isn't my speciality, but how can a pack of cards be said to have a "lowest entropy state" of its own? As far as the cards are concerned, AKQJ is no more "orderly" than 2760, or A2A9. A human has to impose values (to his or her own taste) before there can be "order" of that kind, no? And no such imposition is objectively more or less valid than any other, no?

Information theory, as stated in the OP, deals with the efficient transmission of information.
And there really are combinations of cards that need fewer bits to transmit to describe some combination than others, even taking into account that some information has to be already present in the sender and the recipient.
But the OP doesn't know that, he copied the text from somewhere else and believes it is an argument.
I could explain Shannon entropy to you but I'd have to struggle, it's not an easy to understand concept.

What has that all to do with genomics?
The argument of the creationist goes somewhat like this: DNA is a message that contains a high number of information (low Shannon entropy). That information has to come from somewhere. Thus, god is real.
Which ignores that DNA has a high redundancy (high Shannon entropy) and that the "information" is generated through known natural processes, i.e. doesn't need an intelligent "sender".

 

[rational experiences]

In life human's applying all summation we know one day your self thinking life will be dead.

Hu man thinking or non capability thinking has proven it changes in the life presence of a human.

Do you quantify all human reasons by human past and present identities?

Yes.

First. First position the human only was the teaching about conscious humans.

If you die then position human consciousness ceases.

You are one human. Yet memory the adult us two humans is who you personally are not.

All die and end.

Hence conscious advice states my human ancestry communication advice living is deceased.

Consciousness the topic not biology or thesis a humans ability to thesis biology.

Consciousness as warnings to humans is direct.

A whole lot of deceased human ancestors biologies destroyed now just bacterias microbes is your human past.

As you only use human consciousness as the human you are human warned about your thinking advice.

As said to my life an ape or monkey cannot thesis science status as humans do as closest living conscious.

Living is exact hence living consciousness is also exact.

 

[PruePhillip]

... huge amount of essentially unreadable copy and past..

Don't understand entropy that much. But if it didn't work for evolution it shouldn't work for anything else either.
But this, quote, 'Blind chance'

If you go to a casino you will encounter 'Blind chance' on many games such as blackjack, roulette etc..
So how does the casino come out in front if they rely on 'blind chance' ???
Answer - by knowing the odds.

'chance' follows rules like anything else in nature.
Chance of getting a red over a black? 50%, ie 1/2
Chance of getting two reds? 1/2 x 1/2 = 1/4 or 25%
Change of having three reds? 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2 = 1/8 or 12/5%

In 1913 someone got 26 blacks in a row at Monte Carlo. That's one chance in 66.6 million. And
many lost money betting the roulette ball must fall on the red to 'balance' out somehow.
And that's how the Covid virus evolves - it throws out random variations and one, just one, in
the right place at the right time, could help that virus to spawn a new variety.
And that's how the earth created life - as it says in Genesis 1.

 

[exchemist]

Don't understand entropy that much. But if it didn't work for evolution it shouldn't work for anything else either.
But this, quote, 'Blind chance'

If you go to a casino you will encounter 'Blind chance' on many games such as blackjack, roulette etc..
So how does the casino come out in front if they rely on 'blind chance' ???
Answer - by knowing the odds.

'chance' follows rules like anything else in nature.
Chance of getting a red over a black? 50%, ie 1/2
Chance of getting two reds? 1/2 x 1/2 = 1/4 or 25%
Change of having three reds? 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2 = 1/8 or 12/5%

In 1913 someone got 26 blacks in a row at Monte Carlo. That's one chance in 66.6 million. And
many lost money betting the roulette ball must fall on the red to 'balance' out somehow.
And that's how the Covid virus evolves - it throws out random variations and one, just one, in
the right place at the right time, could help that virus to spawn a new variety.
And that's how the earth created life - as it says in Genesis 1.

You are - like creationists actually - missing the most important feature, namely natural selection.

The virus undergoes random changes but it is only those changes that confer a reproductive advantage that become established as new forms. So it is not the operation of "blind chance" that leads to evolution. It is the operation of natural selection on chance variations.

In effect the virus plays in the casino, with an unending supply of money, until it wins.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

On accepting evolution you need an explanation of how it reduces uncertainty and increases information. Give a reason syntax and semantics occurs in the sequence of nucleotides.

Natural selection.

A believer in evolution needs to explain how it reduces uncertainty and increases the information. Question, how does nature (unthinking and unintelligent) know information to describe lower entropy state? In other words, since it doesn't and can't know it is all random chance,

You keep ignoring natural selection.

how does it reduce a system like a deck of cards to its lowest 24 entropy states out of 8.0658*10^67 different combinations?

Natural selection.

Now remember it would take longer than the existence of our universe (13.8 billion) to just do this with a deck of cards by random chance.

If you include natural selection, it will be done in a matter of minutes.

So for those who profess faith in a natural interpretation of evolution, how do you explain this unintelligent force behind it being able to reduce entropy and increase information in a system?

Natural selection.

We took the example of a deck of cards that has 52 cards. Now remember it would take longer than the age of the universe to even try and shuffle these into their lowest entropy state by chance. The human genome has 3 billion base pairs! The intelligent human mind cannot even begin to compute that. So let's take something easier. mycoplasma genitalium, it only has 580,070 base pairs and codes for 525 genes. To get this genome nature is dealing with 580,00 different combinations (not 52).

To get the genome of a mycoplasma genitalium we are not dealing with 52 different combinations but 580,000!

Again: gradual increase through natural selection.

Remember what they taught us in school about the second law of thermodynamics (I think it was first year Chemistry for me), it states that it destroys any increase in information. That is, any system left alone tends to a state of decay, disorder, in other words: entropy.

Any CLOSED system.
Earth is not a closed system. The sun feeds it with workable energy 24/7.

Do you understand what this is saying? Unless you have an intelligence to decrease uncertainty and thus increase information in a system, information itself can never originate or increase

And yet, trees grow from a seed without any need for any intervention - supernatural or otherwise.

The second law of thermodynamics, entropy, makes it impossible. In an open system entropy can be reduced and you can get an ordered system like a diamond. But it does not allow for the sun shining on a puddle of mud to get a reduction of uncertainty and increase in knowledge to build a machine that can encode information.

Except that it does. Just like it can make a seed turn into a tree.

Thus the genome. Look at the relation between nucleotide bases and amino acids. How does chance decide the sequence of GTC to code for valine instead of leucine?

Chance doesn't. Natural selection does.

So how did the genome come to be?

Random variation/mutation followed by natural selection.

Why would random chance create a code where nucleotide base codes for amino acids?

This "code" you speak off, is in reality just a complex molecule.
And random chance didn't. Natural selection did.

Why would nature have a transcription and translation process?

Because it worked.

Why would blind chance form a polypeptide chain of a sequence of amino acids to encode on a gene?

Blind chance didn't. Natural selection did?

How did nature select 20 amino acids to end up in the human genome? When and how did nature decide on just 20?

Nature doesn't "make decisions".

How did nature create a genetic code that included amino acids that a human would need before humans existed?

Natural selection

Please stop and ponder on that question.

Please stop and read up on natural selection.
And thermodynamics and how earth is an open system, while you are at it.

How does blind chance know we needed these amino acids and encode them on the sequences of DNA?

It doesn't. Teleological fallacy.

How does nature do this when the sun destroys DNA?

Earth has a magnetic field which protects against those damaging sunrays.

And how does the encoding system even have a meaning unless the meaning is assigned to it?

Who says it has "meaning"? What does that even mean?

We have a written language of English. Computers have programing languages. But the characters in the language have no meaning unless an intelligence gives it meaning.

DNA is not a language. It's a molecule engaged in a chemical chain reaction.

So here is the question. Considering bits have to be designed to encode information (like on a computer, using a symbols given meaning by an intelligence) how does chance know how many bits describes a low entropy state? How can nature then build a machine to encode the information with symbols (in this case amino acids in the DNA) in the sequences of a storage medium in the face of the 2nd law of thermodynamics? And we aren't even beginning to deal with the impossible odds of reducing a 3 billion base pair to its lowest entropy state.

1. the earth is not a closed system
2. natural selection

 

[exchemist]

Natural selection.



You keep ignoring natural selection.



Natural selection.



If you include natural selection, it will be done in a matter of minutes.



Natural selection.



Again: gradual increase through natural selection.



Any CLOSED system.
Earth is not a closed system. The sun feeds it with workable energy 24/7.



And yet, trees grow from a seed without any need for any intervention - supernatural or otherwise.




Except that it does. Just like it can make a seed turn into a tree.



Chance doesn't. Natural selection does.





Random variation/mutation followed by natural selection.




This "code" you speak off, is in reality just a complex molecule.
And random chance didn't. Natural selection did.



Because it worked.




Blind chance didn't. Natural selection did?



Nature doesn't "make decisions".



Natural selection



Please stop and read up on natural selection.
And thermodynamics and how earth is an open system, while you are at it.



It doesn't. Teleological fallacy.



Earth has a magnetic field which protects against those damaging sunrays.



Who says it has "meaning"? What does that even mean?



DNA is not a language. It's a molecule engaged in a chemical chain reaction.



1. the earth is not a closed system
2. natural selection

Yes. It is astonishing that, over a century and a half after Darwin's book came out, these people still have not taken in the central feature of his hypothesis.

It shows either pig-headed* stupidity or (perhaps more likely) a deliberate and cynical avoidance of understanding.


* Possibly a bit unfair to pigs, which seem actually to be fairly intelligent creatures.

 

[ChristineM]

If something is impossible adding time doesn't change that.

Therefore it is not impossible. I will take the word of scientist who study evolution and my own research over that of a blatent denier of evidence.

 

[wellwisher]

Mixing up Shannon entropy with thermodynamic entropy is always fraught with hazard. While there is a connection between the two, they are not really the same thing. You cannot apply the laws of thermodynamics to Shannon entropy, since information theory does not specify thermodynamic systems.

Suffice it to say that the order built up in the molecular structure of the genetic coding, in RNA and DNA, accumulates without any violation of the 2nd Law of TD. There are numerous examples of ordered systems arising in nature. I can take you through how this works, if you really don't know.

"Blind chance" is a very unhelpful idea, beloved of creationists that make a fetish of failing (deliberately) to understand the principle of natural selection.

One variable connected to life that is not fully addressed by modern science, is water. Water is the main molecule of life and is a copartner with the the organics of life. Both are needed for life to appear and sustain.

Experiments were done, in the 1950's, where single cells were dehydrated and the water was replaced by a wide range of solvents, all of which were postulated to support life on other planets. The result was nothing worked in any test cells if water was replaced by any of these solvents.

The reason for this is the organics within earth based life are all tuned to the properties of water Even the DNA will not function, at all, if water is not there to push, pull, tuck and squeeze the DNA, at the nanoscale, so the DNA can properly align and become bioactive. DNA evolved in water with water being the source of natural selection at the nanoscale. This is also true of RNA and all the proteins. Evolution at the nanoscale, is due to the natural potential inherent within the water environment. The result is a copartnership between water and all the organics molecules of life, since all were chose by the water.

In terms of entropy lowering and order forming to allow life, the one of the most important nanoscale forces for this is connected to water and can be understood with the water-oil affect. If we mix water and oil and shake we will get an emulsion, but not quite a solution. The reason is the the movement towards the emulsion will create surface tension between the water and oil. This is adding free energy. If we allow this to settle, the surface tension will lower; stored energy lowers, and the water and oil will separate into the order implicit of two phases; layers. All the ordered structural elements of life; even the DNA double helix, are built on the water and oil principle, with water driving the process. Then same applies all the organelles in cells. Water can form order from chaos and does it all the time with organics.

All the other solvents postulated for life have extra hydrophobic nature, similar to the oil in the analogy. Alcohols, for example, can better mix with organics, compared to water; good cleaner, and will cause the organics of life to form random configurations that are not bioactive.

The random assumptions of the life sciences; statistical, are bad premises and are still used because water is not taken as seriously as its many contributions to life. This half baked foundation is what makes evolution half baked. Evolution depends too much on chance, whereas water and organics are about order, due to the simple drive of lowering surface tension, the same way each time, to get the repeatable order that is characteristic of life and replication. The DNA is only a hard drive and will not work, unless water is helping to read and write the data.

Interestingly, water is the second most abundant molecule in the universe, behind only hydrogen; H2. Is this coincidence? The energy difference between H2 and H2O is the energy range used by life. All the organic reactions in life have less energy than the full range, although some rare bacteria are able to use the full range and form hydrogen.

Biology is too organic centric and substitutes dice and cards, for the directing actions of water. The theory of evolution is thereby made half-baked. If you build a house on a flawed foundation, it will sag with time, which is why I do not accept the current house of evolution. It shows stress cracking due to the poor foundation. Look in the subbasement of science and see for yourself.