Inhabited Planets

[Neo Deist]

For all we know, that could be a vast overestimate.

Fine, we'll take NASA's data on 100 billion galaxies and multiple that by 1 billion planets per galaxy (their estimate), and if ONLY .0000000001% of those are habitable, we're still talking 1 billion potential civilizations!

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Your math is rather fuzzy.

can you show me the math for your .000001% calculation?

 

[Katzpur]

You think I jest?

What were those pictures supposed to be of? If you're going to ridicule Mormonism, you ought to at least use legitimate evidence to support your argument. Those pictures have no more to do with Mormonism than they do with Islam or Buddhism.

Here's what I think is funny. People criticise Christians who insist that there could not possibly be any life except on Earth. Then Mormons come along and say that God has created "worlds without number," and we're criticised for that. There either are other planets (though not necessarily in our solar system) that could and may sustain life, or there aren't. You can't have it both ways.

.​

 

[Neo Deist]

can you show me the math for your .000001% calculation?

Read the post directly above yours. That one even narrows the parameters further and still winds up with an astronomical number.

 

[Town Heretic]

Recycled retorts

I call them Pop reTorts.

plus ad homs

See? Yours are chock full of essential vitriol and irony.

Look, like you discussing religion I'm not really attempting to be taken seriously on the point. Or, you mostly asked for the recycle, by which I mean you can't break up with someone and then keep driving by their house. And because the inferential appears to be outside of your wheelhouse, the inference there is that you can't make a dismissive "can't be bothered" declaration and then keep bothering. Well, you can, obviously, but it's a goofy business.

and so early in the game yet.

Well, it's never too early for Pop reTorts (TM and your argument pending).

Oh yes, sorry my "prolixity" observation cut so deeply that it's still with you.

I'll help you out here...when you find yourself suggesting how the other fellow feels there's likely a point to it that will put your eye out.

In the future I'll try to be more gentle.

Which arm do you wave it with (the hand-stitched victory flag)? Because I'm not wrestling against that arm without a brace.

Just make an effort to be either funny, or smart, or both. I like to laugh and I enjoy considering different viewpoints, which is why I've never had an ideological litmus for friends or conversation beyond those two noted or combined points.

 

[Jumi]

I don't know why many reject the possibility of there being inhabited planets other than our own. Does it say it in a book that there can't be life out there?

 

[David1967]

What were those pictures supposed to be of? If you're going to ridicule Mormonism, you ought to at least use legitimate evidence to support your argument. Those pictures have no more to do with Mormonism than they do with Islam or Buddhism.

Here's what I think is funny. People criticise Christians who insist that there could not possibly be any life except on Earth. Then Mormons come along and say that God has created "worlds without number," and we're criticised for that. There either are other planets (though not necessarily in our solar system) that could and may sustain life, or there aren't. You can't have it both ways.

.​

Hy Katz! I would like to encourage everyone who wants to know about what a particular religion teaches, to simply ask someone who practices it. I know from experience that when I was growing up in the Baptist church ,some of the things taught about the beliefs of other denominations and religions were oversimplified at best and outright wrong at worst. Now, if I want to know what a Mormon, Buddhist, Muslim etc. believes,,,I ask one. There are lots to choose from on this forum. And yes we know now that God has indeed created "worlds without number,". Who am I to say that God didn't place life on those worlds?

 

[viole]

There are 7 billion people on the planet, if only .000001 are exactly like you, that leaves a conservative estimate of seven thousand yous

In truth you only have to identify a short list of mundane idiosyncrasies about yourself, to identify as utterly unique. Because each modest improbability compounds the others
The list of idiosyncrasies that allow us to be here on Earth, is very long and far from mundane.

If we do the math, I think the universe is far far too small to expect another Earth, let alone another humanity.

If we found the galaxy to be teaming with ETs- I'd accept the implication that we are not necessarily the primary intended beneficiaries of creation.
I'm willing to accept the opposite implication also- that of observed reality.

Far to small? It is possibly infinite. The hundreds of billions of galaxies is just what we can see given the limitations on the speed of light.

In any case, if there are no aliens, then there are at least hundreds of billions of galaxies which are just a waste of space, if the intention was to make only man. It is much more wasteful than making a continent the size of Asia so that my kids have their own room. That does not bode well for efficient design.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Ouroboros]

​

Isn't that from Battlestar Galactica?

Mormons have the planet Kolob. BSG has the planet Kobol, and 11 other planets. I didn't know Mormons had the other planets as well.

 

[Ouroboros]

You're assuming that life can simply happen.

Isn't that what "universe that's fine tuned for life" means? Shouldn't that indicate a universe that is stuffed with life since it's fine tuned for it? How can life in a small spot in the universe we a miracle and something special if the whole universe was created to support that life?

Considering that we now know that there's biological matter like methanol and even amino-acids in space, it might not be a stretch to think that life is more plausible in this fine tuned universe after all.

A miracle of life would really be if the universe is empty of it and the only life that exists is on this planet. Then it's more likely that some divine power created this single planet of life in this vast universe. But if this universe was created for the sole purpose to support life and keep life going, then it's more likely that the universe does exactly that, produce life and lifeforms of many kinds.

 

[columbus]

I don't know why many reject the possibility of there being inhabited planets other than our own. Does it say it in a book that there can't be life out there?

There is a difference between rejecting the possibility of other sapient life and pointing out some facts. Such as Deist Mentor's math being purely speculation and the total absence of evidence that ET exists.
I see it as a faith based belief, myself. Many people prefer to believe in ET. So they speculate and make claims despite the total lack of evidence supporting the position.
Tom

 

[Katzpur]

Isn't that from Battlestar Galactica?

Possibly. I'm not into Battlestar Galactica, so I really couldn't say. If that's the case, then you can thank Skwim for the intentional misleading information.

Mormons have the planet Kolob. BSG has the planet Kobol, and 11 other planets. I didn't know Mormons had the other planets as well.

They don't. And Kolob is not a planet. It is the name given in "The Pearl of Great Price" (believed by the LDS to be scripture) to a star which is said to be closest to the residence of God. And since Mormons believe God is in Heaven, that would make Kolob be the closest star to Heaven. There are no other planets mentioned.

 

[Town Heretic]

Isn't that what "universe that's fine tuned for life" means?

I don't believe that science really offers an answer to whether or not the mechanism of the universe is purposed or inherent and the same can and then has to be said for life. Ultimately, no matter how we define the mechanism it's part of a regress as questions go that leads to a foundational question which no one is in a position to settle, at least not empirically.

Shouldn't that indicate a universe that is stuffed with life since it's fine tuned for it? How can life in a small spot in the universe we a miracle and something special if the whole universe was created to support that life?

The miracle, assuming, would be in the fine tuning itself, in existence itself.

Considering that we now know that there's biological matter like methanol and even amino-acids in space, it might not be a stretch to think that life is more plausible in this fine tuned universe after all.

I'd like to think that it is, as a creature of faith. That may seem incongruous to you, but it needn't be.

A miracle of life would really be if the universe is empty of it and the only life that exists is on this planet.

Only to someone who doesn't believe in the miraculous or insists on parameters for it that aren't inherent. I can't imagine that God would form all of this for one tribe. And the thought of other sheep isn't one that I find problematic. Rather, I like the notion. But I can't say whether or not it's true any more than the next scientist, only speculate and wonder.

I appreciate your approach though. It's an interesting thing to mull over.

 

[Twilight Hue]

If I read correctly, diesm is basically a creation event for which God went adios amigo.

 

[Akivah]

No, because deism is not a religion. It is a philosophy that simply states the belief in God based on natural observations, instead of divine revelations through man made scrolls/books. Everything beyond that statement is personal mumbo jumbo.

You too are bound to this "little mudball". None of your natural observations of those assumed trillion planets have increased your understanding of G-d.

 

[Ouroboros]

I don't believe that science really offers an answer to whether or not the mechanism of the universe is purposed or inherent and the same can and then has to be said for life. Ultimately, no matter how we define the mechanism it's part of a regress as questions go that leads to a foundational question which no one is in a position to settle, at least not empirically.

True. Science doesn't answer the questions of purpose or intent, simply because it has to assume a mind of some kind planning and plotting behind the scenes, and as far as we know, there isn't any.

The miracle, assuming, would be in the fine tuning itself, in existence itself.

Still, it would mean a universe that produce life and have other life forms. So I don't see the need to reject that idea. If God created the universe to produce life, it would be wrong for us to reject a universe that produces life.

I'd like to think that it is, as a creature of faith. That may seem incongruous to you, but it needn't be.

Only to someone who doesn't believe in the miraculous or insists on parameters for it that aren't inherent. I can't imagine that God would form all of this for one tribe. And the thought of other sheep isn't one that I find problematic. Rather, I like the notion. But I can't say whether or not it's true any more than the next scientist, only speculate and wonder.

Yes. We're in agreement.

I rather believe there is life out there, but I suspect it will be very difficult for us to find it. Also, intelligent life might be impossible to find, even if it's there. And on top of that, I suspect that intelligence and awareness can take on other forms than just biological, so we might have life in the universe that we can never communicate with. We wouldn't know.

I appreciate your approach though. It's an interesting thing to mull over.

Absolutely.

 

[columbus]

Of those let's say only .000001% can contain life. That leaves a (conservative) estimate of 1,000,000,000,000 (one trillion) potential alien civilizations.

But where did you get that number? We only have one episode of life to examine.
Suppose you live in a high rise building in Queens. You throw a dime off the roof of the Empire State Building during a heavy thunderstorm. What are the odds it will land on your balcony?
You have no way of knowing whether self-replicating molecules developing into sapience are any more likely to form on another "earth like planet". It might be. But there is evidence, small as it is, and the evidence is against the existence of ET intelligence.
Tom

 

[Town Heretic]

True. Science doesn't answer the questions of purpose or intent, simply because it has to assume a mind of some kind planning and plotting behind the scenes, and as far as we know, there isn't any.

Where I'd say, as far as we know/can demonstrate, we don't know instead of "there isn't any".

Still, it would mean a universe that produce life and have other life forms. So I don't see the need to reject that idea. If God created the universe to produce life, it would be wrong for us to reject a universe that produces life.

Couldn't agree more.

Yes. We're in agreement.

Excellent. The stuff that frubies are made of.

I rather believe there is life out there, but I suspect it will be very difficult for us to find it. Also, intelligent life might be impossible to find, even if it's there. And on top of that, I suspect that intelligence and awareness can take on other forms than just biological, so we might have life in the universe that we can never communicate with. We wouldn't know.

Supra. This is getting annoyingly agreeable.

Absolutely.

Supra, and thanks again.

 

[David1967]

I rather believe there is life out there, but I suspect it will be very difficult for us to find it. Also, intelligent life might be impossible to find, even if it's there. And on top of that, I suspect that intelligence and awareness can take on other forms than just biological, so we might have life in the universe that we can never communicate with. We wouldn't know.

And we may not want to find intelligent life. What if it is way more advanced than us,,,,and doesn't like us. Personally though I do tend to believe that with the vastness of space it would be more improbable than not that we are alone. It really would be a terrible waste of space, and from a religious aspect it seems to put a limit on Gods creative power.

 

[Demonslayer]

In any case, if there are no aliens, then there are at least hundreds of billions of galaxies which are just a waste of space, if the intention was to make only man.

This is what I've always thought too. I mean here's the theory:

- An all powerful being who has always existed since forever, sits there for billions and trillions and googleplexes of years, trying to decide what he should do with his infinite power and time.

- Relatively recently (~6000 - 14 billion years ago) this being says "well, I've been sitting around doing nothing for eternity, this week I'm going to create my masterpiece!"

- This being creates a limitless space with 100 octillion stars, countless planets, black holes, cool gassy colorful things...enough space to hold billions or trillions of different kinds of life.

- "And for my magnum opus" all powerful being says "I shall create..."

Some hairless pink monkeys who squabble, smell bad, lose their hair and teeth and pee themselves after about 80 years???

WE are the masterpiece of the most super all powerful being in the megaverse? WE are the best God could come up with???? The universe should have TONS of cool chit. We're it? That's what God came up with after an eternity of thought on what he might make? LOL GOD.