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Inherently wrong actions?

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
Huh?

It's more like, bringing rationally to raith believers is like trying to make a horse eat steak.

I'm assuming you meant "faith", but the analogy still escapes me.

Only they are categorically different. Good/evil/right/wrong are matters of philosophy, not science.

But objective morality, being objective, is science and rationally determined--and a whole lot more scientific than you'll find being labeled that in many a not-so-fine liberal arts college.
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
What is moral is what is beneficial for the society and it's citizens. There is no relative morality. People don't disagree on what is MORAL, because that is what is beneficial for society. People disagree on what is BENEFICIAL.

I really don't see this making sense. You are saying people disagree on what is beneficial for society, and 'beneficial for society' equals moral, but there is not relative morality?????

IMO, it would be like saying people don't disagree with the fact that God exists, just the part of what God actually is, is where the disagreement is.

Whereas I'm pretty sure a) nope, some people clearly disagree with the idea that god(s) exist, just as b) some people disagree that morality equals what is beneficial for society. I would say all people concerned strictly with a personal code of ethics really do not care if that aligns with what is 'beneficial for society.'

In some areas they think homosexual practices are detrimental to society in other places they don't. They don't have different conceptions of what is MORAL, they all want to do the moral thing, that which is beneficial to their society, but they have different opinions of what is beneficial or detrimental. Unless you understand the difference you'll always be confused.

See above.
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
I have not answered the rest of your post since I am unable to find any reference to any killer instinct in any list of instincts online. Would you mind linking to some references?

What did you search?

I ask cause I didn't have much trouble finding this. I then went on to search "survival instinct for humans" and some of that embraces what I'd call streak of violence, or a "flight or fight" pattern observable in humans.

My original search was "killer instinct in humans" and did find at least 3 sources within first 3 pages that were tackling it from an article written about scientific research, perspective. If you really can't find anything after suggestions in this post, let me know and I'll link 2 to 5 sources that discuss how killer instinct manifests in humans.
 
Let me help you out. To demonstrate an 'objective morality', you would need to do one of two things.

1)Provide an objective source of morality

2)Provide one or more apriori proofs to the effect that a given morality is anything other than subjective.

It's actually pretty simple, yet no philosopher or theologian has managed it yet. Kant gave it a shot, why don't you? :)
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
I really don't see this making sense.
That is the problem.
You are saying people disagree on what is beneficial for society, and 'beneficial for society' equals moral, but there is not relative morality?????
"Good" and "right" are synonyms for "moral". What is good and right for the society is per definition the moral thing to do. Always. What is moral is not up for discussion because that is always what is good and right for the society and never what is detrimental. What is moral isn't relative or subjective because that is always what is beneficial. If people are discussing what is moral and one person says "I subjectively think what is moral is what is good for the society" and another person said "I subjectively think that what is moral is what is detrimental to society" that would be a contradiction in terms. What is subjective isn't what is moral but the different opinions people have about what is beneficial.
Whereas I'm pretty sure a) nope, some people clearly disagree with the idea that god(s) exist, just as b) some people disagree that morality equals what is beneficial for society.
"Morality" doesn't equal what is beneficial for society. The definition of "morality" is "principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behaviour." "Moral" = beneficial.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
My original search was "killer instinct in humans" and did find at least 3 sources within first 3 pages that were tackling it from an article written about scientific research, perspective. If you really can't find anything after suggestions in this post, let me know and I'll link 2 to 5 sources that discuss how killer instinct manifests in humans.
How would I know which sources you specifically refer to? Just give me the LINKS!
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
1)Provide an objective source of morality
Evolution and natural selection.
2)Provide one or more apriori proofs to the effect that a given morality is anything other than subjective.
The definition of "subjective" is "based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions." Evolution and natural selection wasn't "based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions" when it evolved our survival instinct and it's the survival instinct that is the reason why we help people survive and we call such behavior good/right/beneficial/moral.
 
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leibowde84

Veteran Member
Are there any actions that you think are inherently wrong?

I do not.

Not sure what there could be to debate, but I do think it profound to fully realize no action is inherently wrong. I also find it easy to take that for granted once you realize this truth.

I think certain things are wrong in a relative sense. Like I don't wish to be killed, so I do think killing is wrong in a relative way. But I don't see it as inherently wrong because a) everyone (or everything) in physical existence will die/be killed and b) because of my theological understandings. The latter covers a whole lot of sub-points that perhaps amount to profound points that are possibly seen as ridiculous from a non-theological perspective - such as Perfect Love knows there is no death, thus killing is not truly possible.

But I start this thread cause I am interested in what actions, if any, people think are inherently wrong. And to help stipulate that a bit, I do mean wrong regardless of geographic location or local laws.

I came pretty close to adding to the inquiry by asking if you (general you) think there are any wrong thoughts? I actually think that is more direct inquiry, but not sure if that just clouds things. But really looking for any thoughts, words or actions that people think are inherently wrong and why they reach that conclusion.

Kind of hoping non-theist types respond cause I anticipate certain theist types to say certain things are inherently wrong because their doctrine says so.
I would say it depends on whether context is considered. For example, killing is certainly not always wrong, but killing an innocent person merely for enjoyment is always wrong.
 

Sonofason

Well-Known Member
Evolution and natural selection.The definition of "subjective" is "based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions." Evolution and natural selection wasn't "based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions" when it evolved our survival instinct and it's the survival instinct that is the reason why we help people survive and we call such behavior good/right/beneficial/moral.
Yes, the definition of subjective incorporates personal feelings, tastes, and opinions. But the fact is, there is no such thing as a "survival instinct". The desire to preserve one's own life has absolutely nothing at all to do with instinct. It has nothing to do with physiology whatsoever. The will or desire to live or die, or to save a life or to let it die is however completely related to personal feelings, tastes and opinions. Our survival instinct as you call it is the result of learning, and is therefore a product of our personal feelings, tastes and opinions. If there is any relation between evolution and this survival instinct, or between natural selection and this so called survival instinct it is because the physiology of the body has evolved to avoid pain. Pain receptors evolved. Pain receptors are a part of our physiology, and the reason that we pull away when we experience pain.

People exist who want to die. The reasons they want to die is completely the result of their personal feelings. It is purely subjective in nature. A person does not try to kill themselves because they lack some evolutionary physiological component which causes them to desire to avoid death. It is because they have come to believe that they no longer desire to exist. The evolutionary physiological component that does exist is one which causes individuals to pull away when they experience pain. Aside from the personal feelings, if there is another reason people avoid death, it is because the process of dying often involves experiencing pain, which is naturally selected. If death were painless, and if emotion and knowledge were to be left out of the equation, no one would be avoiding it.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
If there is any relation between evolution and this survival instinct, or between natural selection and this so called survival instinct it is because the physiology of the body has evolved to avoid pain. Pain receptors evolved. Pain receptors are a part of our physiology, and the reason that we pull away when we experience pain.
OK. Let's put in pain instead but that doesn't help you much.

"The definition of "subjective" is "based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions." Evolution and natural selection wasn't "based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions" when it evolved our aversion to pain and it's this aversion to pain that is the reason why we say it's immoral to inflict pain. Not because somebody subjectively suddenly decided that inflicting pain is immoral. There goes your subjective morality.
 

Sonofason

Well-Known Member
OK. Let's put in pain instead but that doesn't help you much.

"The definition of "subjective" is "based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions." Evolution and natural selection wasn't "based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions" when it evolved our aversion to pain and it's this aversion to pain that is the reason why we say it's immoral to inflict pain. Not because somebody subjectively suddenly decided that inflicting pain is immoral. There goes your subjective morality.
Inflicting pain on others is immoral, especially when we do so for personal enjoyment, because we know that we were designed to avoid pain. I never ever did say or suggest that inflicting pain on others is subjectively wrong. And so this statement of yours, "There goes your subjective morality" is meaningless. I had said it is inherently, and objectively wrong, and the reason it is wrong is because we have been designed to avoid pain, yet there are those who would ignore this reality and willingly inflict pain onto others. So you are right, inflicting pain on others is not wrong because someone subjectively and suddenly decided that it is wrong. It is wrong because people ignore the reality that we were designed to avoid pain, and yet still willingly choose to cause pain to others. Doing so is always wrong.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
Inflicting pain on others is immoral, especially when we do so for personal enjoyment, because we know that we were designed to avoid pain. I never ever did say or suggest that inflicting pain on others is subjectively wrong. And so this statement of yours, "There goes your subjective morality" is meaningless. I had said it is inherently, and objectively wrong, and the reason it is wrong is because we have been designed to avoid pain, yet there are those who would ignore this reality and willingly inflict pain onto others. So you are right, inflicting pain on others is not wrong because someone subjectively and suddenly decided that it is wrong. It is wrong because people ignore the reality that we were designed to avoid pain, and yet still willingly choose to cause pain to others. Doing so is always wrong.
We evolved a survival instinct so we avoid pain, since pain indicates injury or disease which in turn decreases chances of survival. And since it wasn't our subjective opinion that organisms should be born with a survival instinct it is objectively wrong to cause injury, disease or death unless to avoid greater harm.

Survival instinct:
"the instinct in humans and animals to do things in a dangerous situation that will prevent them from dying ⇒ The survival instinct had driven her to eat."
http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/survival-instinct
 
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ArtieE

Well-Known Member
People exist who want to die. The reasons they want to die is completely the result of their personal feelings. It is purely subjective in nature.
They are not objectively supposed to want to die. Something has overridden their OBJECTIVE survival instinct which is why we stop them, regard them as ill and sometimes medicate them. What is objectively right doesn't depend on their subjective feelings.
 
That is the problem."Good" and "right" are synonyms for "moral". What is good and right for the society is per definition the moral thing to do. Always.

OK so, given the overpopulation of some countries like china and india, it would be 'moral' to exterminate 95% of them. gotcha.

OK so given black people are 15% of the american population committing 85% of the violent crime, exterminating all black people is 'moral'.

I could go on, but hopefully you see the problem with your line of reasoning.
 

Sonofason

Well-Known Member
We evolved a survival instinct so we avoid pain, since pain indicates injury or disease which in turn decreases chances of survival. And since it wasn't our subjective opinion that organisms should be born with a survival instinct it is objectively wrong to cause injury, disease or death unless to avoid greater harm.
Yes, I think so. We do not evolve for any particular purpose whatsoever. Pain receptors, and therefore avoidance of pain is the instinct that via evolutionary processes exists in our physiology. It is an accidental consequence that this genetic physical process came into existence (unless of course it was designed by a designer). We evolved a physiological process which causes us to avoid pain. That genetic and physiological process of avoidance of pain inadvertently contributes to our ability to survive. It was not an intended consequence that pain receptors ought benefit our ability to survive, unless of course those processes was designed by a designer. Our design is to avoid pain. It may or may not be the case that this design was purposefully intended to benefit our survival.

I think your conclusion correct. Since it wasn't our subjective opinion that organisms should be born with a physiology which causes us to avoid pain, it would be objectively wrong to desire and purposefully cause injury and harm to ourselves. That would be going against the design. Furthermore, because we have the ability to experience pain, and because we know that we ourselves designed to avoid it, it is therefore also morally wrong to purposefully cause injury and pain to others.
 

Sonofason

Well-Known Member
They are not objectively supposed to want to die. Something has overridden their OBJECTIVE survival instinct which is why we stop them, regard them as ill and sometimes medicate them. What is objectively right doesn't depend on their subjective feelings.
No, you keep forgetting we have no survival instinct. We have an avoidance of pain instinct. The benefit of survival is an inadvertent consequence of our avoidance of pain instinct. No one is supposed to want to avoid death. We are designed to avoid pain. If we could cause our own death without pain, we have accomplished a subjective desire to die without contradicting the design which causes us to avoid pain. People do it all the time. We stop them not because there is some objective truth that death is wrong. We stop them because we have subjective feelings and emotions with regard to the loss of loved ones, and we are capable of empathy for those who love that person who decides they want to end their life.
 

Sonofason

Well-Known Member
I should have edited my last post to clarify...because it is more complex than all of that. If we could kill someone without causing them pain, that is still wrong, because killing someone causes pain to others. It is the same reason everyone tells me its wrong to condemn or ridicule a homosexual. It causes him pain. While I might consider such behavior wrong, while such behavior may indeed be wrong, condemning someone for it, or ridiculing them for it causes them pain, and that is wrong to do. But I digress...that is for another thread.
 

Sonofason

Well-Known Member
Furthermore, we here ideas about "the lesser of two evils". Committing an act that is the lesser of two evils may indeed be the best course of action given a particular situation. By no means however is committing a lesser evil ever good. It is still evil.
 
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