Instantaneous action/reaction

[setarcos]

For those of you who are scientifically inclined....I was thinking about that desktop toy "Newtons cradle" and the speed at which the energy is transferred from the first ball to the last. How fast is it transferred and why isn't it possible to transfer action instantly?
Given a particle whose repulsive forces are maximally compressed against another particle and so on until we have a certain length of particles whereas when one particle is forced into the next and that one into the next etc. why don't be have instantaneous action across the line whereas one particles movements cannot be achieved without the "cooperation" of the next in line particles movements which itself cannot move without the next particles cooperative movement etc. and so on?
I think it will be most interesting to see what the answers given will be.

 

[Heyo]

For those of you who are scientifically inclined....I was thinking about that desktop toy "Newtons cradle" and the speed at which the energy is transferred from the first ball to the last. How fast is it transferred and why isn't it possible to transfer action instantly?
Given a particle whose repulsive forces are maximally compressed against another particle and so on until we have a certain length of particles whereas when one particle is forced into the next and that one into the next etc. why don't be have instantaneous action across the line whereas one particles movements cannot be achieved without the "cooperation" of the next in line particles movements which itself cannot move without the next particles cooperative movement etc. and so on?
I think it will be most interesting to see what the answers given will be.

I'm not going to ruin everybody's fun, just say that the term "maximally compressed" will play an important role in the correct answer.

 

[setarcos]

I'm not going to ruin everybody's fun, just say that the term "maximally compressed" will play an important role in the correct answer.

You caught that...I was pretty sure that would be the focus of some explanations. Should lead to the question of whether or not two particles can be in a relational superposition in which one particles actions or interactions instantly translate over to another particle.
"Spooky action at no distance" verses what Einstein complained about.
Normally I think the mechanisms of energetic absorption and transmission have a measurable duration within a particle...but why? That is the interesting part. What is happening with energy within the particle during this quantum deration?

 

[Twilight Hue]

You caught that...I was pretty sure that would be the focus of some explanations. Should lead to the question of whether or not two particles can be in a relational superposition in which one particles actions or interactions instantly translate over to another particle.
"Spooky action at no distance" verses what Einstein complained about.
Normally I think the mechanisms of energetic absorption and transmission have a measurable duration within a particle...but why? That is the interesting part. What is happening with energy within the particle during this quantum deration?

That's where entropy comes in. The energy is all there. The question is the little demon controlling the gate.

 

[setarcos]

That's where entropy comes in. The energy is all there.

Thanks for replying but you'll have to elaborate on what you mean by "The energy is all there." ? The total energy of the system has increased and presumably is conserved throughout the interactions between the particles.

The question is the little demon controlling the gate.

I'm guessing your referring to Laplace's demon thought experiment concerning the entropic evolution of a system? I'm thinking current interpretations of Quantum Mechanics has eliminated that little demon. Never the less I think that demon is irrelevant. The question concerns instantaneous transference of energy from one particle to the next. The question still concerns the duration of entropic change. When a system changes does it change instantly or over a duration. If over a duration...why? Energy has been described as a quality. When that quality of a particle has been exchanged with another why isn't that exchange instantaneous? Where in lies the lag time?

 

[Heyo]

For those of you who are scientifically inclined....I was thinking about that desktop toy "Newtons cradle" and the speed at which the energy is transferred from the first ball to the last. How fast is it transferred and why isn't it possible to transfer action instantly?
Given a particle whose repulsive forces are maximally compressed against another particle and so on until we have a certain length of particles whereas when one particle is forced into the next and that one into the next etc. why don't be have instantaneous action across the line whereas one particles movements cannot be achieved without the "cooperation" of the next in line particles movements which itself cannot move without the next particles cooperative movement etc. and so on?
I think it will be most interesting to see what the answers given will be.

Since nobody answered the question in quite some time, I'll have a shot.
Imagine a Newtons Cradle made of molecules. The molecules don't touch, and the atoms in the molecules don't touch either. So there is a time for one atom to travel towards the next to get near enough to force the next atom to move.
We can apply force to get the atoms nearer together, and they will compress proportional to the force applied. But no matter how much finite force we apply, the impulse from the first ball will add more force and compress the material further. Thus, there is no "maximally compressed material" that has any spacial extension. (For all practical purposes. Atoms will fuse and release energy when pressed hard enough or collapse into a singularity inside a black hole - which has no spacial extension.)
That's why it is impossible to have an instant transfer of momentum.

The speed with which the transfer happens is roughly the speed of sound in the medium.

 

[wellwisher]

The speed with which the transfer happens is roughly the speed of sound in the medium.

If the object striking the target, is moving faster than the speed of sound of the target, the energy remains behind the projectile, doing lateral damage; sonic energy boom that trails the projectile. This how they take out hardened tanks with high momentum rounds; very heavy metal bullet like depleted uranium, at high speeds. Uranium is about 19gm/cc while iron is 8gm/cc.

There is a toy on the market called "silly putty" that you can mold like putty. However, if you mold it into a ball and throw it against the ground or a wall, it will bounce back with almost perfect rebound; little loss of energy. It acts like a super ball.

An interesting secondary effect, not connected to compression energy; projectile or bounce, it connected to tensile strength and energyy. The silly putty will stretch like gum if you slowly pull it apart. But if you pull it fast with a jerk, it will shear at a smooth plane. It properties for compression and tension are speed; time dependent. If we had a wall of silly putty and softly toss a rock at it, the rock will stick into it. If we throw the same rock really fast at the silly putty wall, it will bounce back and hit us at about the same speed.

If you go slow enough the weakly held long polymers chains of the putty can slide past one another to move and compress like putty or stretch like bubble gum. But if you go faster, the weak chemical binding between the polymer chains, does not have time to side, so the silly putty will appear to harden, and will shear under tension or bounce under compression like a super ball. This is an example of a nonNewtonian material that behaves differently from most metals and ceramics.

Water is interesting in that something similar happens when you make water go faster and faster. Slow water feels soft, but as it goes faster and faster it start to act like a solid; pressure washer. The hydrogen bonding takes time to break, and if you go really faster the hydrogen bonds cannot move fast enough and liquid water acts more like ice. It can even be used like a saw through stone.

The Properties of Materials was my educational specialty.

Although not related, there is a simple home experiment one can do to experience an entropy change. The concept of entropy is often seen as nebulous, but proof is in the pudding; first hand experience. All you need a rubber band. Rubber is a polymer where all the polymer worms are cross linked with sulfur bridges.

In the first test, you take a room temperature rubber band and hold it to your lips. The lips are sensitive and can feel any subtle temperature change. If you stretch the rubber band, on your lips, you can feel it get warmer; exothermic. Next, keep the rubber band stretched for a few minute, until it cools back tor room temperature, while remaining stretched. Next, put it back to your lips and let it contract; you will feel it cool; endothermic.

The cross linking of the polymer molecules in rubber band, at rest are vibrating and taking up space. As we stretch the rubber band, the polymers are aligning with the tensile force adding order to the rubber band; entropy or complexity decreases with the release of heat. When we let the rubber band contract, the polymer molecules can assume a more expanded vibrational state increasing entropy; back to more disorder. An entropy increase adsorbs heat; get cooler.

a rubber band is designed to already be at maximum entropy, and any change that lower entropy; stretch or compression, will be resisted and if allowed to overcome, the rubber will return to its memory of maximized entropy; repeatable entropic state.

 

[ChristineM]

For those of you who are scientifically inclined....I was thinking about that desktop toy "Newtons cradle" and the speed at which the energy is transferred from the first ball to the last. How fast is it transferred and why isn't it possible to transfer action instantly?
Given a particle whose repulsive forces are maximally compressed against another particle and so on until we have a certain length of particles whereas when one particle is forced into the next and that one into the next etc. why don't be have instantaneous action across the line whereas one particles movements cannot be achieved without the "cooperation" of the next in line particles movements which itself cannot move without the next particles cooperative movement etc. and so on?
I think it will be most interesting to see what the answers given will be.

I don't know if I'm flowing correctly but think electricity power line.

An election is pushed onto the line all other electrons move up to accommodate it. At the end of the line, (almost ) instantly, an electron.falls out providing power. This happens at a close approximation to the speed of light but no faster

Edit. You can perform the same trick with a long tube filled with balls. Push an extra one in and one falls out the other end

 

[setarcos]

I don't know if I'm flowing correctly but think electricity power line.

An election is pushed onto the line all other electrons move up to accommodate it. At the end of the line, (almost ) instantly, an electron.falls out providing power. This happens at a close approximation to the speed of light but no faster

Edit. You can perform the same trick with a long tube filled with balls. Push an extra one in and one falls out the other end

Of note...theoretically in an AC power line the net movement of electrons is zero. They do not flow through the line from one end to the other, instead they oscillate states. During this oscillation the electrons supposedly do move a minimal distance before reversing.
But that's neither here nor there. What I'm asking is...given a change in the state of a system which depends on a change in another system such as when one ball cannot move through the tube without simultaneously moving its neighboring balls why isn't this "action" instantaneously translated from the balls at the front of the tube to the balls at the back? What causes the lag time between the instantaneous change in one system and its effective change in the next system if that "next" system has to change before the first one can?
Another way of looking at it...If there is any system in which instantaneous causal change in that system (the first ball in the tube moves) is dependent upon a change in a corresponding effected system (the second ball in line moves) why wouldn't the effected system have to change first in order that the causal system can change? The first ball can't move unless the second ball in line moves but the second ball in line doesn't move until the first ball in line initiates movement. If the first ball can't move then the second ball wont move, but if the second ball can't move then the first ball won't move and around we go. The cause has become an effect and the effect a cause.
In physics the implications run deep and are more nuanced but logically as presented here I'm sure the answers to this riddle abound. Of course that's all this is...an answerable riddle.

 

[sayak83]

For those of you who are scientifically inclined....I was thinking about that desktop toy "Newtons cradle" and the speed at which the energy is transferred from the first ball to the last. How fast is it transferred and why isn't it possible to transfer action instantly?
Given a particle whose repulsive forces are maximally compressed against another particle and so on until we have a certain length of particles whereas when one particle is forced into the next and that one into the next etc. why don't be have instantaneous action across the line whereas one particles movements cannot be achieved without the "cooperation" of the next in line particles movements which itself cannot move without the next particles cooperative movement etc. and so on?
I think it will be most interesting to see what the answers given will be.

The force passes through the balls as a compressive stress wave whose velocity can, at max, be the speed of sound for that material. That causes the delay.

 

[setarcos]

If the object striking the target, is moving faster than the speed of sound of the target, the energy remains behind the projectile, doing lateral damage;

You'll have to elaborate on what you mean by this. If all of the energy remains behind the projectile, what happens when the projectile strikes the target ahead of its trailing "energy cone"? The kinetic energy of the projectile remains with the projectile and transfers at the moment of impact. Any lateral damage done is a result of a "bleed" off of some of that kinetic energy into the surrounding environment - the heat and noise of the rapidly expanding air which is trying to get out of the way. Is this not correct?

 

[setarcos]

The force passes through the balls as a compressive stress wave whose velocity can, at max, be the speed of sound for that material. That causes the delay.

Why does the energy transfer at the speed of sound through the material and not say...near the speed of light as we get with electromagnetic transferences of energy?

 

[ChristineM]

Of note...theoretically in an AC power line the net movement of electrons is zero. They do not flow through the line from one end to the other, instead they oscillate states. During this oscillation the electrons supposedly do move a minimal distance before reversing.
But that's neither here nor there. What I'm asking is...given a change in the state of a system which depends on a change in another system such as when one ball cannot move through the tube without simultaneously moving its neighboring balls why isn't this "action" instantaneously translated from the balls at the front of the tube to the balls at the back? What causes the lag time between the instantaneous change in one system and its effective change in the next system if that "next" system has to change before the first one can?
Another way of looking at it...If there is any system in which instantaneous causal change in that system (the first ball in the tube moves) is dependent upon a change in a corresponding effected system (the second ball in line moves) why wouldn't the effected system have to change first in order that the causal system can change? The first ball can't move unless the second ball in line moves but the second ball in line doesn't move until the first ball in line initiates movement. If the first ball can't move then the second ball wont move, but if the second ball can't move then the first ball won't move and around we go. The cause has become an effect and the effect a cause.
In physics the implications run deep and are more nuanced but logically as presented here I'm sure the answers to this riddle abound. Of course that's all this is...an answerable riddle.

My bad, i was talking DC, i should have stated that.

As for movement there is compression to take into account.

 

[ChristineM]

Why does the energy transfer at the speed of sound through the material and not say...near the speed of light as we get with electromagnetic transferences of energy?

Even light doesn't travel at the speed of light through a medium. Under some conditions the speed of light can be reduced to around 38mph.
Scientists Slow Down Speed of Light

 

[sayak83]

Why does the energy transfer at the speed of sound through the material and not say...near the speed of light as we get with electromagnetic transferences of energy?

Very very roughly, the speed of sound is related to the rate at which force per unit area between atoms of a substance change with change in spacing between the atoms. Obviously for transmission of a compressive force through a atomic population, this rate is the determining factor. Hence speed of sound is the relevant velocity.

 

[setarcos]

Thanks for the reply. Very interesting stuff. At what point do you think does the change in spacing between atoms become effectively zero? And what happens at that point do you think?
Seems to me if the spacing between atoms is sufficiently close to zero then atomic particle structure comes into play rather than atomic "populations". And how is it that an object and its kinetic energy can travel faster than the speed of sound but transference of compressive force cannot? Are we talking about the same systems of transference?

 

[setarcos]

Even light doesn't travel at the speed of light through a medium. Under some conditions the speed of light can be reduced to around 38mph.
Scientists Slow Down Speed of Light

Yes...fascinating stuff. Thanks for sharing the link. I was referring to limits of speed of energy transference not specifically whether or not light quanta can go slower than its maximum speed.

 

[ChristineM]

Yes...fascinating stuff. Thanks for sharing the link. I was referring to limits of speed of energy transference not specifically whether or not light quanta can go slower than its maximum speed.

My point was, the speed of light is not consistent, it varies depending on the medium it is travelling through.

 

[setarcos]

My point was, the speed of light is not consistent, it varies depending on the medium it is travelling through.

 

[sayak83]

Thanks for the reply. Very interesting stuff. At what point do you think does the change in spacing between atoms become effectively zero? And what happens at that point do you think?
Seems to me if the spacing between atoms is sufficiently close to zero then atomic particle structure comes into play rather than atomic "populations". And how is it that an object and its kinetic energy can travel faster than the speed of sound but transference of compressive force cannot? Are we talking about the same systems of transference?

Atoms are collections of subatomic particles and the spacing between atoms is governed by electrical attraction and repulsion forces between these subatomic particles. One can, in theory, compress a substance indefinitely since the subatomic particles occupy very little volume individually. But as compression force increases, so does the temperature. So the temperature will become so high that the atomic structure itself will break and the material will become a "plasma" which a dense soup of effectively unbounded subatomic particles. Increase the pressure even higher and nuclear reactions will start occuring as happens in the Sun, or the neutron star interiors. Beyond that, it becomes a black hole and we frankly have no idea what is the state of the matter.
In short materials can be compressed indefinitely and the idea of incompressible substance is only an appx model and not the truth.