Intelligent Design and Biological Flaws

[Ultimatum]

My belief is life was fostered by higher intelligence/nature spirits. They are beyond us in their intelligence but they are still finite beings not omniscient and omnipotent. They learn through evolution what works and doesn't work.

That's cute.

 

[Ultimatum]

No where in the bible does it promise perfection in this life, In fact it promises the opposite.
I don't know where you got the idea to expect it.

"and God said it was good"

 

[Thana]

"and God said it was good"

It was.
And then they ate from the tree.

 

[Robert.Evans]

The world is, undoubtedly, a world full of biological flaws; Down's Syndrome, Harlequin Ichthyosis disease, birth defects, extra limbs, missing limbs, vestigial organs, etc. How do supporters of intelligent design explain these flaws in humans, (as well as animals,) while maintaining a belief that everything was intelligently designed?

First of all let us dispense with the idea of intelligent design, as that will muddy the waters.

What we see all around us, and indeed us ourselves, is a reflection of earlier consciousness, super-consciousness if you will. That super-consciousness is also us, but a higher aspect of that same consciousness; making us the lower; hence the reason you see disease etc. It is all an evolving consciousness expressed in physical terms. Nothing made of matter really exists in a deeper sense, it just how it is expressed here.

So if consciousness is allowed to develop as it wills, will there not be good and evil there? Of course. And if that is so, will we not see things that appear to be in error? Yes. And that is why intelligent design and evolution are bothe part right and part wrong.

The universe is evolving consciouness.... our evolving consciousness... the whole thing... the theory of everything.

 

[Robert.Evans]

I did not. I was asking if that is what you believed. Either it is a mistake, God purposely brought it upon them, or just doesn't care enough to do anything about it.

Or another answer you haven't thought of yet

 

[Robert.Evans]

I believe it was on purpose. And before you pity them and blame God, We all have our crosses to bear. There's are simply more obvious.

There are no mistakes when you're talking about an omnipotent omniscient being.

But if that is the case, how can be blame us for doing something wrong? He has to be just, so it cannot be quite that simple.
Now, if God can reflect his own Self, then we have, in effect, many Gods, or gods if you like. With that we can get flaws creep in as the consciousness of that divine-one expands. It is why are memory fails us some times when we look back into past events. It is the same idea. We reflect that same ''One'' you see. Ultimately of course, there is only One God. It is like the first domino of the line that reflects its own Self down the domino effect as it moves on.

 

[Robert.Evans]

That's a good question, actually. Some Christians say that the Fall only impacted humanity and left animals as they were, so that animals did die, kill and eat each other before the Fall. Other Christians say no. I'm kinda on the fence with this since I kinda have my own views on what happened that fall outside the traditional understanding.

Humans are just another expression of animal though. We are all part of the 'adam'. Do you see?

 

[Robert.Evans]

You can never get them to admit the obvious, because they "know" what the bible says before they read it. It is amusing to watch, nevertheless.

Believers might not everything, but at least they know something; and that something is important, ''amusing'' or not.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Once again, it specifically says that he regrets making them, not that he regrets what they themselves have done.

"The LORD regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled."

We are speaking of the God of this aeon, not the Ultimate God. The God of this aeon is the culmination of our own consciousness as a collective. He is the peak of the triangle. We are what follows.
The God of this aeon can have regrets, which means mistakes.

 

[Robert.Evans]

But God knows the future and is omnipotent so why does he regret something that he knew was going to happen? He clearly wanted it to happen this way.

Its like having a mechanic look over a used car, he tells you its a lemon, but you buy it anyways and then you regret buying the car when it breaks down. It makes no sense for a super intelligent being. Its thoroughly illogical.

If indeed that was the logic behind it, it would be

 

[Ultimatum]

It was.
And then they ate from the tree.

Genesis 1: 11-12
11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

This includes the troll tree in the middle of the garden. Unless, of course, you believe otherwise and that the Genesis account has gaps in it making it unreliable.

 

[Kolibri]

the troll tree

Troll tree? Huh? or are you referring to the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Bad? There was nothing wrong with that tree. What was wrong was how it was misused.

 

[Ultimatum]

Troll tree? Huh? or are you referring to the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Bad? There was nothing wrong with that tree. What was wrong was how it was misused.

"There was nothing wrong with that tree"
Oh, of course not! Except from the fact that, when it's fruit was eaten, it would result in death, labour, disease, inequality, and knowledge of things that shouldn't have been known of in the first place.

Answer me this question:
Would you leave your child in a room with a poisonous apple? Regardless, of whatever else is in there? And to then punish your child after eating from it?

 

[Thana]

Genesis 1: 11-12
11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

This includes the troll tree in the middle of the garden. Unless, of course, you believe otherwise and that the Genesis account has gaps in it making it unreliable.

Of course there are gaps in Genesis, In the entire bible. Jesus's entire life isn't in there, Nor is every detail of creation or the time between prophets and so forth.

As to whether that verse includes the Tree of Knowledge, I can't say. Either way it changes nothing so I don't know why you brought it up. God said it was good and so it was. The tree itself wasn't bad.

 

[Ultimatum]

As to whether that verse includes the Tree of Knowledge, I can't say. Either way it changes nothing so I don't know why you brought it up. God said it was good and so it was. The tree itself wasn't bad.

Of course it does. It's a tree. It produced fruit. And thus it is written in the Genesis.
"The three itself wasn't bad"
^Blatantly ignoring the fact that it was bad. Unless of course, you see original sin as a good thing.

 

[Thana]

Of course it does. It's a tree. It produced fruit. And thus it is written in the Genesis.
"The three itself wasn't bad"
^Blatantly ignoring the fact that it was bad. Unless of course, you see original sin as a good thing.

Maybe I do.
You're kinda just nitpicking. There are plenty of things to obsess over in the bible, but this really isn't one of them.

 

[Kolibri]

Of course it does. It's a tree. It produced fruit. And thus it is written in the Genesis.
"The three itself wasn't bad"
^Blatantly ignoring the fact that it was bad. Unless of course, you see original sin as a good thing.

sin is bad regardless. But are you sinning if you leave a stove in the kitchen and your adult son starts a grease fire? Are you sinning if you tell him not to go through your closet and he does it anyway?

People forget that Adam and Eve were not children. They already had a basic sense of danger. They experienced gravity, ect. And, unlike us, their consciences would be inherently functioning perfectly. We know how they were from examining how Jesus was. The only other example of a perfect human we have.

 

[Triumphant_Loser]

He knows the outcome of everything, You do not.
Everything has a reason, Every action a reaction that ripples on forever.
If you look at the bigger picture you can see it.

I've always found that to be a cop out answer of sorts. Christians can't logically explain why their god does the things he does, so they just pull the "God works in mysterious ways" card.

 

[Ouroboros]

I've always found that to be a cop out answer of sorts. Christians can't logically explain why their god does the things he does, so they just pull the "God works in mysterious ways" card.

Another mysterious thing God supposedly did was to create an immune system in all animals before everything went wrong and bacteria and virus started to attack all living beings. Did God plan the fall? He must've (if we assume the story to be true) Or did God "evolve" an immune system in all animals, including humans after the fall? And blood clothing. Did God expect Adam and Eve and all animals get cut in the perfect world? Or appendix. Was it created to save beneficial biotics in the case of stomach flu from bad bacteria before the fall? Lots of mysterious designs there.

 

[Kolibri]

Another mysterious thing God supposedly did was to create an immune system in all animals before everything went wrong and bacteria and virus started to attack all living beings. Did God plan the fall? He must've (if we assume the story to be true) Or did God "evolve" an immune system in all animals, including humans after the fall? And blood clothing. Did God expect Adam and Eve and all animals get cut in the perfect world? Or appendix. Was it created to save beneficial biotics in the case of stomach flu from bad bacteria before the fall? Lots of mysterious designs there.

So many cycles and ecosystems are in place. Not just the immune system. The planet, if left alone can repair itself. Do any of us build things that can do that so completely? I speaks design, and loving care.
In no way do I feel that God planed for the fall into slavery to sin and death. But rather a means was created to have our bodies self-repair indefinitely...even forever. Scientists are still trying to figure out what is the trigger to aging beyond our prime. It is as if we were never meant to - which does fit the idea that Adam and/or Eve could have lived forever and none of us would have needed a ransom.