Intelligent Design Isn't So Intelligent

[ChristineM]

Question:

In the past, before fractal math and so on, wave patterns in the ocean were considered chaotic, unpredictable, but now, we can use fractals to generate very convincing waves using computer-aided design and so on--commonplace today in quality videogames and so on.

The question is this: When I ask you about God and cosmology, you rely on some kind of "God didn't, but some natural cause we don't yet understand made the universe," so can I use the same approach with you, "The universe, like ocean waves, only appears chaotic, but soon, we'll discover the natural laws and math underlying it's seemingly chaotic appearance"?

And the simulated waves are simulated, so by your logic the universe is a computer game?

Yes i admit that it is unknown how the universe came into existence. There are several mathematically feasible theories some are based on observable evidence such as the "bruises" on the cmb. Unlike you who fills the gaps in your knowledge with an unevidenced myth.

Consider the 2 body problem, easy to solve. Add a body and the 3rd body problem can only be solved in the short term because the additional point of gravity introduces a chaotic element. Now add trillions of bodies (gravitational effects, though subject to the inverse square rule are infinite). You get a chaotic universe.

 

[BilliardsBall]

And the simulated waves are simulated, so by your logic the universe is a computer game?

Yes i admit that it is unknown how the universe came into existence. There are several mathematically feasible theories some are based on observable evidence such as the "bruises" on the cmb. Unlike you who fills the gaps in your knowledge with an unevidenced myth.

Consider the 2 body problem, easy to solve. Add a body and the 3rd body problem can only be solved in the short term because the additional point of gravity introduces a chaotic element. Now add trillions of bodies (gravitational effects, though subject to the inverse square rule are infinite). You get a chaotic universe.

Is most mass/energy in this chaotic universe in stasis or changing?

Do you consider the largest masses in the universe chaotic or orderly in nature?

 

[ChristineM]

Is most mass/energy in this chaotic universe in stasis or changing?

Do you consider the largest masses in the universe chaotic or orderly in nature?

Glad you are now in agreement that the universe is chaotic.

Depends what you mean by changing, changing position... Most certainly. Changing state, rarely but it happen, suns for example convert mass to energy.

On the quantum level it is chaotic, in it's movement it is chaotic on a much larger scale.

 

[Polymath257]

Question:

In the past, before fractal math and so on, wave patterns in the ocean were considered chaotic, unpredictable, but now, we can use fractals to generate very convincing waves using computer-aided design and so on--commonplace today in quality videogames and so on.

The question is this: When I ask you about God and cosmology, you rely on some kind of "God didn't, but some natural cause we don't yet understand made the universe," so can I use the same approach with you, "The universe, like ocean waves, only appears chaotic, but soon, we'll discover the natural laws and math underlying it's seemingly chaotic appearance"?

OK, do we need to have a short course on chaos theory?

Chaos is a phenomenon that happens in certain deterministic systems. It is NOT the same as randomness. Instead, it is a situation where two situations that are initially similar, but different, diverge in their behavior rapidly. Another common expression for this is the 'butterfly effect', where the flapping of a butterfly wing in South America determines the direction of a hurricane several months later. Small initial differences produce large differences in effect.

In a chaotic situation, it is common to be able to make predictions for a limited amount of time, because the system *is* deterministic, but not for a longer period of time, because the accuracy of the initial data isn't enough. Again, rapid divergence of similar initial conditions leads to limited predictability.

Fractals are a more general term, referring to self-similar situations. Many chaotic dynamical systems also show fractal behavior. That is why fractal generators can produce such cool computer simulations.

But, and this is a HUGE issue, the basic laws of the universe are not, and have been shown not to be, deterministic. Quantum mechanics is NOT a deterministic system. Because of that, it isn't correct to call it chaotic. Instead, it is inherently probabilistic. This isn't a case of there being a 'more fundamental level' which is deterministic that produces those probabilities because we don't know what is going on. We have found certain patterns that *must* exist in all deterministic system, 'law abiding ones' and when we go to the real world, those patterns are violated.

The universe is inherently probabilistic in nature. That is an established fact. The laws of nature are probabilistic, not deterministic, so technically are not chaotic.

 

[Polymath257]

Is most mass/energy in this chaotic universe in stasis or changing?

Do you consider the largest masses in the universe chaotic or orderly in nature?

Not even a sensible question. At what level of detail are you looking at the systems? At the gross level, gravity works to shape planets into spheres, which are 'ordered'. But at the smaller scale, all sorts of effects produce chaotic dynamics (feedback loops do this a lot).

The most fundamental laws of nature are probabilistic. Does that mean, in your conception, that they are orderly or chaotic? They *do* determine the possibilities, but also allow a lot of variance.

And, just because something changes doesn't imply it is chaotic. Or even probabilistic.

 

[SkepticThinker]

There's nothing to back out of, I've already explained, atheists see less beauty in the universe, less order, than the religious. They must believe, despite the evidence, that the universe is chaotic, to make sense of their meaningless existence. That is, to provide ORDER for their existence. ;0

The very fact that you assert that I have to move forward or else back out of our discussion shows that you believe in an organized universe. Why should I discuss anything with you at all? Why should I "organize" our chat?

What a pile of nonsense. I love that you think you know what others are thinking though. That's great.

 

[SkepticThinker]

You are posting to me reasoned, ordered, logical, non-chaotic posts, from organized scientists, who use as axiomatic laws of physics, math and logic to back their assertions to say the universe is chaotic? Interesting.

Perhaps this will help. Is the Earth chaotic? The animal kingdom or the plant kingdom?

Clearly, the Bible is true--the Earth was created.

Well then, Spiderman comics must be true too, because New York City exists.

 

[Audie]

Well then, Spiderman comics must be true too, because New York City exists.

My boyfriend fist-bumpted someone who appeared to be Spiderman, right here
in Gotham, just off Central Park on W 49th.

 

[sayak83]

Question:

In the past, before fractal math and so on, wave patterns in the ocean were considered chaotic, unpredictable, but now, we can use fractals to generate very convincing waves using computer-aided design and so on--commonplace today in quality videogames and so on.

The question is this: When I ask you about God and cosmology, you rely on some kind of "God didn't, but some natural cause we don't yet understand made the universe," so can I use the same approach with you, "The universe, like ocean waves, only appears chaotic, but soon, we'll discover the natural laws and math underlying it's seemingly chaotic appearance"?

Along with the separation of chaotic and indeterministic.

There exists a mathematical disproof of the proposition that there could ever be subtler deterministic laws that generate the indeterministic laws of Quantum Mechanics. Given it's a mathematical disproof, the fundamental nature of reality has been definitively and infallibly determined to be indeterministic.

Physicists Are Closing the Bell Test Loophole | Quanta Magazine

https://phys.org/news/2016-03-physicists-extreme-violation-local-realism.html

 

[SkepticThinker]

My boyfriend fist-bumpted someone who appeared to be Spiderman, right here
in Gotham, just off Central Park on W 49th.

We have an eyewitness account!

 

[BilliardsBall]

Along with the separation of chaotic and indeterministic.

There exists a mathematical disproof of the proposition that there could ever be subtler deterministic laws that generate the indeterministic laws of Quantum Mechanics. Given it's a mathematical disproof, the fundamental nature of reality has been definitively and infallibly determined to be indeterministic.

Physicists Are Closing the Bell Test Loophole | Quanta Magazine

https://phys.org/news/2016-03-physicists-extreme-violation-local-realism.html

I understand. Would you say this concept makes us reject a god or wonder at the power of the divine?

 

[sayak83]

I understand. Would you say this concept makes us reject a god or wonder at the power of the divine?

Obviously not.

 

[Audie]

There's nothing to back out of, I've already explained, atheists see less beauty in the universe, less order, than the religious. They must believe, despite the evidence, that the universe is chaotic, to make sense of their meaningless existence. That is, to provide ORDER for their existence. ;0

The very fact that you assert that I have to move forward or else back out of our discussion shows that you believe in an organized universe. Why should I discuss anything with you at all? Why should I "organize" our chat?

Re the part in bold:

No, you have it backwards, Atheists see far more beauty and wonder that the religious do. Reality vs fantasy. I will take reality.

Completely misunderstanding what you are looking at, admiring yourselves.

You must believe, despite the evidence, that the universe run by some "god" to (imagine that you)
make sense of what you see.

For lo, the "god" you imagine is just that; what you imagine.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Re the part in bold:

No, you have it backwards, Atheists see far more beauty and wonder that the religious do. Reality vs fantasy. I will take reality.

Completely misunderstanding what you are looking at, admiring yourselves.

You must believe, despite the evidence, that the universe run by some "god" to (imagine that you)
make sense of what you see.

For lo, the "god" you imagine is just that; what you imagine.

If reality is more beautiful to you than fantasy, you must truly love all which God has created. That's a good thing.