Intelligent Design vs the Methodological Naturalism standard for science

[David T]

it is not science it is metaphysics.

Science is the study of intelligent design.

well its not Christian although some Christians believe it.

 

[David T]

This thread is devoted to the claims and science of 'Intelligent Design' and the standard Methodological Naturalism. The Discovery Institute is the major up front proponent for the science of Intelligent Design and Creationism.

My argument will be that 'Intelligent Design' nor any version of Creationism cannot be objectively verified nor falsified by the standard objective methodology of science.

I hold the science of cosmology, evolution and abiogenesis to the same strict standards as ALL the sciences are held to.

From: Methodological Naturalism

"Methodological naturalism is not a "doctrine" but an essential aspect of the methodology of science, the study of the natural universe. If one believes that natural laws and theories based on them will not suffice to solve the problems attacked by scientists - that supernatural and thus nonscientific principles must be invoked from time to time - then one cannot have the confidence in scientific methodology that is prerequisite to doing science. The spectacular successes over four centuries of science based on methodological naturalism cannot be gainsaid. On the other hand, a scientist who, when stumped, invokes a supernatural cause for a phenomenon he or she is investigating is guaranteed that no scientific understanding of the problem will ensue."

Some Creationists equate Methodological Naturalism with Philosophical (Ontological) Naturalism, which by definition is not correct. Methodological Naturalism makes no assumptions concerning worlds beyond our physical world nor the supernatural. Philosophical Naturalism needs to make philosophical assumption, not supported by science, that no worlds exist beyond our physical world, nor do supernatural events happen.

Some have expressed the opinion that ''some scientists do not nor need not hold to a strict definition and methods of Methodological Naturalism to justify 'Intelligent Design' or Creationism. I will argue against this and argue that the purpose is to argue for a theist agenda, and not science.

Important proviso for this thread; I do not claim that Intelligent Design, the various beliefs of Creationism are true nor false. I am only arguing that they are not supported by the accepted standards of science.

Well I totally agree shunyadragon but hopeless. No computer forum can "resolve" it impossible.

 

[Grandliseur]

But we already know how machines and technology can be built by living things like ourselves. So if it's sufficiently similar in type, the inferential process works. We would also be able to predict that on further investigation we should see manufacturing plants, mining enterprises and recycling and power generation plants that made the manufacturing possible.
Of course none of this is true for life. We see life recreating itself autonomously, landforms creating and eroding autonomously and planets and stars forming and dying autonomously. So the inference there is that of a self-propelling system that exists by its own power. I don't see a universe or star or life manufacturing plant anywhere. If you can find me one, then the inference will change.
Further the designer is not dead. So if he exists, Pray to him? It's not an unreasonable request surely?

a demo on how he did his design would certainly convince us.

That would be fun, if we could get that kind of information.

From what I understand at the moment, there is something else that has priority. Only twice, in what I know, has technology been handed down to us beyond the knowledge we possessed at the time. The first time was in the case of Noah's ark, which all atheists reject, the second time was with Solomon's temple, and even that bit of technology remains unknown by the vast majority, unknown and unrecognized, and perhaps rejected by the majority if exposed to it. Still, I enjoyed it when someone told me about it.

 

[Grandliseur]

@Grandliseur , you might enjoy this....

Fossil Suggests The Pyramids And The Sphinx Were Once Submerged Under Water


It supports your statement, scoffed at by siti. Heaven forbid, the Flood occurred! They've gotta come up with other explanations, they (science icons) just can't allow any metaphysical explanations!

BTW, thanks for the lead. It's more evidence for the Noachian Flood thread.

It seems fairly obvious that much is being swept under the rug. Someone, on a boring Youtube program, demonstrated something hilarious to me. Here he was standing on the top of a smaller pyramid when compared to Egypt's and yet it was clearly a pyramid. The people at this location, scientists, etc. all claimed that no pyramids existed in the region, while he clearly stands on top of one and shows it to us. Hilarious incident, but a lengthy and boring program. He mentioned something about 7000 pyramids that nobody, absolutely nobody - spoke of, as if the topic is forbidden.

 

[sayak83]

That would be fun, if we could get that kind of information.

From what I understand at the moment, there is something else that has priority. Only twice, in what I know, has technology been handed down to us beyond the knowledge we possessed at the time. The first time was in the case of Noah's ark, which all atheists reject, the second time was with Solomon's temple, and even that bit of technology remains unknown by the vast majority, unknown and unrecognized, and perhaps rejected by the majority if exposed to it. Still, I enjoyed it when someone told me about it.

I am not an atheist. Would it be possible to have a conversation where all the arguments are not based on the assumption that the conversation partner is an atheist? Don't want to harangue you, but it does get exasperating over time.

 

[sayak83]

It seems fairly obvious that much is being swept under the rug. Someone, on a boring Youtube program, demonstrated something hilarious to me. Here he was standing on the top of a smaller pyramid when compared to Egypt's and yet it was clearly a pyramid. The people at this location, scientists, etc. all claimed that no pyramids existed in the region, while he clearly stands on top of one and shows it to us. Hilarious incident, but a lengthy and boring program. He mentioned something about 7000 pyramids that nobody, absolutely nobody - spoke of, as if the topic is forbidden.

You never told me the credentials of that guy.

 

[Grandliseur]

I am not an atheist. Would it be possible to have a conversation where all the arguments are not based on the assumption that the conversation partner is an atheist? Don't want to harangue you, but it does get exasperating over time.

Sorry. I can see I have a cultural problem with your defining yourself as Pluralist Hindu. Not quite sure what exactly that means.

It would have been interesting for me to visit your country. We have a lot of young ones here from Nepal.

 

[sayak83]

Sorry. I can see I have a cultural problem with your defining yourself as Pluralist Hindu. Not quite sure what exactly that means.

It would have been interesting for me to visit your country. We have a lot of young ones here from Nepal.

It's simple. I am a Hindu but I am a pluralist in the sense that I don't believe that my religion is the only true one.

 

[Grandliseur]

You never told me the credentials of that guy.

I know. I have gotten so used to how when an argument is not liked by others that they begin by denigrating personalities that I don't think it worth my time to provide the details.

Since you ask again, I will give you the video I think it was. At least, it contains what I thought was so funny last time. From ca 11:30 min point, onward, he speaks about pyramids clearly shown which he shows none accept as existing (13:40 ~ 15:00). It is rather funny imo, at least right there. I didn't have the energy to listen to the entire video.

Oh, in case you should want to know what I learned about Solomon's temple, it was a secret mechanism to remove the ark of the covenant secretly if attacked by enemies. Nothing mysterious about it, just interesting.

If you look at the video, look also at ca 22:30 - this is about a Chinese scholar.

 

[Grandliseur]

It's simple. I am a Hindu but I am a pluralist in the sense that I don't believe that my religion is the only true one.

Thank you.

I apologize for my inability at times to remember what exactly your beliefs are. I am unfortunately having a lot of stress in my daily life causing me to be less able than I should be.

 

[sayak83]

Thank you.

I apologize for my inability at times to remember what exactly your beliefs are. I am unfortunately having a lot of stress in my daily life causing me to be less able than I should be.

Sorry to hear that. May find peace and relaxation soon in 2018. Upanishads, one of our most esteemed scripture begins every chapter with this invocation,


Aum! May He protect us both together; may He nourish us both together;
May we work conjointly with great energy,
May our study be vigorous and effective;
May we not mutually dispute (or may we not hate any).
Aum! Let there be peace in me.
Let there be peace in my environment.
Let there be peace in the forces that act on me.

 

[sayak83]

I know. I have gotten so used to how when an argument is not liked by others that they begin by denigrating personalities that I don't think it worth my time to provide the details.

Since you ask again, I will give you the video I think it was. At least, it contains what I thought was so funny last time. From ca 11:30 min point, onward, he speaks about pyramids clearly shown which he shows none accept as existing (13:40 ~ 15:00). It is rather funny imo, at least right there. I didn't have the energy to listen to the entire video.

Oh, in case you should want to know what I learned about Solomon's temple, it was a secret mechanism to remove the ark of the covenant secretly if attacked by enemies. Nothing mysterious about it, just interesting.

If you look at the video, look also at ca 22:30 - this is about a Chinese scholar.

Here is the guy. He is a known fake.
Semir Osmanagić - Wikipedia

 

[Grandliseur]

Sorry to hear that. May find peace and relaxation soon in 2018. Upanishads, one of our most esteemed scripture begins every chapter with this invocation,


Aum! May He protect us both together; may He nourish us both together;
May we work conjointly with great energy,
May our study be vigorous and effective;
May we not mutually dispute (or may we not hate any).
Aum! Let there be peace in me.
Let there be peace in my environment.
Let there be peace in the forces that act on me.

Beautiful sentiment. If we all could strive to be peace makers the world would be a better place.

My problems are not of this kind. I visit my very ill wife daily at her hospital, and have my own health problems to fight with, diabetes. Her illness is causing me all kinds of unusual problems since I live in Japan, and though I speak the language, I cannot read or write it. This causes many extra difficulties in trying to sort through life's problems.

Of course, I have many joys to appreciate. I have 3 wild cats that come and beg me for food, and I am fortunate or blessed in having my daily needs covered despite the serious hospital bills. Besides, this there are many things to be thankful for. Your kindness now is one of them.

 

[Grandliseur]

Here is the guy. He is a known fake.
Semir Osmanagić - Wikipedia

Many say so. Still look at the time points I gave you. It is quite funny, at least the 11 min one I provided.

 

[sayak83]

Beautiful sentiment. If we all could strive to be peace makers the world would be a better place.

My problems are not of this kind. I visit my very ill wife daily at her hospital, and have my own health problems to fight with, diabetes. Her illness is causing me all kinds of unusual problems since I live in Japan, and though I speak the language, I cannot read or write it. This causes many extra difficulties in trying to sort through life's problems.

Of course, I have many joys to appreciate. I have 3 wild cats that come and beg me for food, and I am fortunate or blessed in having my daily needs covered despite the serious hospital bills. Besides, this there are many things to be thankful for. Your kindness now is one of them.

Balloons for your wife. May she feel better soon.

 

[sayak83]

Many say so. Still look at the time points I gave you. It is quite funny, at least the 11 min one I provided.

The pyramids has been dated to the 19 th century. So they are very very recent.
Pyramids of Güímar - Wikipedia

 

[Grandliseur]

The pyramids has been dated to the 19 th century. So they are very very recent.
Pyramids of Güímar - Wikipedia

That was quite interesting.

 

[shunyadragon]

Happy New Year Siti!

As always we have to make the important distinction between the label and the method- - the institutionalized academic opinion, and the practical method we all know and love

The label itself is just that, and so far more often refers to the former, the 'club' it is an entirely social construct after all

While Edison, the Wright brothers, Bill Gates, were inventors, engineers, entrepreneurs, and total academic 'failures', so the label 'scientist' did not apply

Hawking, Dawkins, Sagan, De Grasse Tyson etc etc - the label applies certainly, awards, media exposure, book sales of course make them the world's most famous 'scientists'
but can you name the greatest scientific contribution between them all?


This is how the primeval atom and quantum mechanics were labeled 'pseudoscience' at the same time Piltdown Man and Phrenology were declared unquestionable science

So I agree with Grandiseur, I'm not too impressed with science, I'm far more interested in what is actually true

Nothing here,including the name calling, have not addressed the questions; How can 'Intelligent Design' be falsified using scientific methodology? Can you present a scientific hypothesis that can be falsified?

 

[shunyadragon]

@Grandliseur , you might enjoy this....

Fossil Suggests The Pyramids And The Sphinx Were Once Submerged Under Water


It supports your statement, scoffed at by siti. Heaven forbid, the Flood occurred! They've gotta come up with other explanations, they (science icons) just can't allow any metaphysical explanations!

BTW, thanks for the lead. It's more evidence for the Noachian Flood thread.

This is an embarrassing article for you or anyone else to take seriously. Yes, there are fossils inside and on the limestone quarried for building the pyramids. There are fossils inside and on the limestone in the quarry. Fossils found on the surface are the same fossils weathered out and exposed when the stone was carved for building blocks. The fossils were in the limestone before they built the pyramids.

It is only evidence that Limestone forms in shallow warm seas like around Bermuda, and the Great Barrier Reef and not in a flood environment.

 

[shunyadragon]

Nothing here,including the name calling, have not addressed the questions; How can 'Intelligent Design' be falsified using scientific methodology? Can you present a scientific hypothesis that can be falsified?

That would be fun, if we could get that kind of information.

From what I understand at the moment, there is something else that has priority. Only twice, in what I know, has technology been handed down to us beyond the knowledge we possessed at the time. The first time was in the case of Noah's ark, which all atheists reject, the second time was with Solomon's temple, and even that bit of technology remains unknown by the vast majority, unknown and unrecognized, and perhaps rejected by the majority if exposed to it. Still, I enjoyed it when someone told me about it.

First, atheists have nothing to do with whether Noah;s Ark nor Solomon's Temple are real or not. It is the archaeologists, historians and other scientists that research such claims, and evaluate whether such things existed in history. The archaeologist's associated with Biblical Archaeology research are for the most part theists.

First, Solomon's Temple is not rejected by archaeologists. Architecture achievements such as this are well within normal engineering achievement of cultures at the time. Even though evidence of Solomon;s tomb were not found at the Temple Mount. Several equivalent temples have been found.

From: Searching for the Temple of King Solomon - Biblical Archaeology Society

"For centuries, scholars have searched in vain for any remnant of Solomon’s Temple. The fabled Jerusalem sanctuary, described in such exacting detail in 1 Kings 6, was no doubt one the most stunning achievements of King Solomon in the Bible, yet nothing of the building itself has been found because excavation on Jerusalem’s Temple Mount, site of the Temple of King Solomon, is impossible.

Fortunately, several Iron Age temples discovered throughout the Levant bear a striking resemblance to the Temple of King Solomon in the Bible. Through these remains, we gain extraordinary insight into the architectural grandeur of the building that stood atop Jerusalem’s Temple Mount nearly 3,000 years ago.

As reported by archaeologist John Monson in the pages of BAR, the closest known parallel to the Temple of King Solomon is the ’Ain Dara temple in northern Syria. Nearly every aspect of the ’Ain Dara temple—its age, its size, its plan, its decoration—parallels the vivid description of the Temple of King Solomon in the Bible. In fact, Monson identified more than 30 architectural and decorative elements shared by the ’Ain Dara structure and the Jerusalem Temple described by the Biblical writers."

Third, as far as Noah's Ark there is no archaeological or other evidence that the Ark ever existed. The Ark as described is not sea worthy nor even possible without advanced technology not remotely available at the time it is claimed to be built. The other problem is there is absolutely no evidence of world wide nor regional flood associated with the Noah's Ark.

Forth. this does not address the questions concerning the subject of the thread,