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Intelligent Design???

leroy

Well-Known Member
This is not a scientific definition. There is no such thing as a random mutation, because randomness does not cause mutations.


Well I told you what I mean with "random mutation" what word should I use instead?
These sources describe with more detail the widelly accepted and widelly used concept of random mutations.


Mutations are random

Mutations can be beneficial, neutral, or harmful for the organism, but mutations do not "try" to supply what the organism "needs." Factors in the environment may influence the rate of mutation but are not generally thought to influence the direction of mutation. For example, exposure to harmful chemicals may increase the mutation rate, but will not cause more mutations that make the organism resistant to those chemicals. In this respect, mutations are random — whether a particular mutation happens or not is unrelated to how useful that mutation would be.

a mutation have no influence whatsoever on the probability that this mutation will or will not occur. In other words, mutations occur randomly with respect to whether their effects are useful. Thus, beneficial DNA changes do not happen more often simply because an organism could benefit
Genetic Mutation | Learn Science at Scitable

I have no idea on what you mean by "it is not a scientific definition" but this term is widelly used in books, text books and scientific articles, and they use the term in the same sence that I am using it. + The fact that whether if the definition is scientific or not (whatever it means) you still know what I mean when I use the term

For example Richard Dawkins uses the term random mutation in the same sence I am using the term

Darwinism is not a theory of random chance. It is a theory of random mutation plus non-random cumulative natural selection.

But I don't whant to debate semantics, I told you what I mean by random mutation , so please tell me what term should I use?
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
You did not read the references. The reference did describe step by step mutations

Really, ? Can you quote the exact mutations that occured ?....... No so stop lying, nobody has spotted the mutations necessary to build a flagellum. Nobody knows if there is a viable path of benefitial mutations* that would lead to a flagellum.

Ok ok you can add a few neutral steps but not too many, the path Is suppose to be mainly positive......agree?
and showed that the ancestors of the flagellum had a functional purpose.
.

Granted, behe and I do not deny the fact that flagellum a came from ancestral systems.

The claim is that the process of random mutation + NS by themselves can't account for the origin of the flagellum.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Really, ? Can you quote the exact mutations that occured ?....... No so stop lying, nobody has spotted the mutations necessary to build a flagellum. Nobody knows if there is a viable path of benefitial mutations* that would lead to a flagellum.

Ok ok you can add a few neutral steps but not too many, the path Is suppose to be mainly positive......agree?


Granted, behe and I do not deny the fact that flagellum a came from ancestral systems.

The claim is that the process of random mutation + NS by themselves can't account for the origin of the flagellum.
Overly specific demands are not unlike lying. They are far from honest.

Try again.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Overly specific demands are not unlike lying. They are far from honest.

Try again.

Ok by your own admission you don't have the specific mutations .


So what do you have? How do you know that the flagellum a evolved by a process of random genetic mutations, and natural selection? .......
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
There is no criteria in the science of genetics that requires positive genetic change in 1 generation. Mutated genes can exist for generations and need not be a positive change. These mutations can be neutral at the time the mutation takes place, and persist for generations.

Sure but statistically speaking neutral mutations are more likely to be filtered out by genetic drift. Agree yes or no?

As Behe explains you can add a few neutral steps in the process, but you can't add too many neutral steps, otherwise you would be "claiming cliffs in mount improbable"

Behe makes up his own rules to justify his agenda.

Sure, but these rules are falsifiable, he could in theory be proven wrong. He provides a mathematical argument explaining what are the limits of evolution by random mutations and natural selection. One could in theory show that his math is incorrect .

As far as I understood, my burden is to show that irreducible complexity is falsifiable, not that IC is true.

After you admit that IC is falsifiable we can go to the next step and discuss whether if the idea has been falsified or not
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
There are always "preexisting conditions" once life exists. How far are you trying to move the goal posts now?

Your own sources suggested a starting point, so how do you go from that point to fully formed flagellums? Can you show that there is a step by step path? With step by step y mean 1 genetic change at the time.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
As explained no proper tests of falsification.

Well Behe does provide examples of how could someone falsify his theory.

Quote from behe

I claim, for example, that the bacterial flagellum could not be produced by natural selection; it needed to be deliberately intelligently designed. Well, all a scientist has to do to prove me wrong is to take a bacterium without a flagellum, or knock out the genes for the flagellum in a bacterium, go into his lab and grow that bug for a long time and see if it produces anything resembling a flagellum. If that happened, intelligent design, as I understand it, would be knocked out of the water. I certainly don’t expect it to happen, but it’s easily falsified by a series of such experiments.

If you what to claim that ID is unfalsifiable, you have to deal with Behes claim and explain why is he wrong, you can't simply assert that he is wrong, without any justification.

You claim that flagellums evolved by a process of random genetic change and natural selection right? ..... How can someone falsify your claim ?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Ok by your own admission you don't have the specific mutations .


So what do you have? How do you know that the flagellum a evolved by a process of random genetic mutations, and natural selection? .......
None are needed. Your demand only shows that you either have no understanding at all of the topic, in which case you should not be debating in the manner that you have been. Or you are merely being dishonest because you know that you are wrong.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Well Behe does provide examples of how could someone falsify his theory.

Quote from behe



If you what to claim that ID is unfalsifiable, you have to deal with Behes claim and explain why is he wrong, you can't simply assert that he is wrong, without any justification.

You claim that flagellums evolved by a process of random genetic change and natural selection right? ..... How can someone falsify your claim ?
Did you not see that the rest had to be reasonable?

Try again.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Your own sources suggested a starting point, so how do you go from that point to fully formed flagellums? Can you show that there is a step by step path? With step by step y mean 1 genetic change at the time.
Sorry, by moving the goal posts all the way to abiogenesis you in effect admit that you are wrong. Not being able to answer every question does not refute a theory.

You are now grasping at the thinnest of straws.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Sorry, by moving the goal posts all the way to abiogenesis you in effect admit that you are wrong. Not being able to answer every question does not refute a theory.

You are now grasping at the thinnest of straws.
I didn't move the goal post to abiogebesis, the goal post is and has always been in the exact point suggested by your sources.

I am not saying that you should answer to every question, I am simply asking, what positive and falsifiable evidence do you have that shows that flagellums evolved by a procesos Of random mutations and natural selection?
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
None are needed. Your demand only shows that you either have no understanding at all of the topic, in which case you should not be debating in the manner that you have been. Or you are merely being dishonest because you know that you are wrong.
Ok so what positive evidence for you have ?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I didn't move the goal post to abiogebesis, the goal post is and has always been in the exact point suggested by your sources.

I am not saying that you should answer to every question, I am simply asking, what positive and falsifiable evidence do you have that shows that flagellums evolved by a procesos Of random mutations and natural selection?
You moved the goalposts beyond the scope of the discussion, with no end in sight.

And I gave you the evidence that you asked for. Did you miss it? I know that you did not study it.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Sure but statistically speaking neutral mutations are more likely to be filtered out by genetic drift. Agree yes or no?

No. Please show the math or the observations demonstrating this. Simulations would be acceptable also.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Well I told you what I mean with "random mutation" what word should I use instead?
These sources describe with more detail the widelly accepted and widelly used concept of random mutations.

You depict randomness as a cause, which it is not. The observed variation in the outcome of cause and effect events is fractal based on chaos theory. The laws of nature are the cause. All randomness describes is the unpredictable occurrence of individual mutation events.


Genetic Mutation | Learn Science at Scitable

I have no idea on what you mean by "it is not a scientific definition" but this term is widely used in books, text books and scientific articles, and they use the term in the same since that I am using it. + The fact that whether if the definition is scientific or not (whatever it means) you still know what I mean when I use the term. [/quote]

Read your reference more carefully. Your use and definition of random is a broad brush in layman's terms, and describe it as a problem for evolution to take place where virtually anything is possible in mutations, and probability determines that evolution cannot naturally take place to result in the observed complexity of life, as in the claim of Intelligent Design, and this is NOT the scientific use nor definition. The reference provides a better understanding of what may be called 'randomness.'

From your source.

"Are Mutations Random?

The statement that mutations are random is both profoundly true and profoundly untrue at the same time. The true aspect of this statement stems from the fact that, to the best of our knowledge, the consequences of a mutation have no influence whatsoever on the probability that this mutation will or will not occur. In other words, mutations occur randomly with respect to whether their effects are useful. Thus, beneficial DNA changes do not happen more often simply because an organism could benefit from them. Moreover, even if an organism has acquired a beneficial mutation during its lifetime, the corresponding information will not flow back into the DNA in the organism's germ line. This is a fundamental insight that Jean-Baptiste Lamarck got wrong and Charles Darwin got right.

However, the idea that mutations are random can be regarded as untrue if one considers the fact that not all types of mutations occur with equal probability. Rather, some occur more frequently than others because they are favored by low-level biochemical reactions. These reactions are also the main reason why mutations are an inescapable property of any system that is capable of reproduction in the real world. Mutation rates are usually very low, and biological systems go to extraordinary lengths to keep them as low as possible, mostly because many mutational effects are harmful. Nonetheless, mutation rates never reach zero, even despite both low-level protective mechanisms, like DNA repair or proofreading during DNA replication, and high-level mechanisms, like melanin deposition in skin cells to reduce radiation damage. Beyond a certain point, avoiding mutation simply becomes too costly to cells. Thus, mutation will always be present as a powerful force in evolution."

For example Richard Dawkins uses the term random mutation in the same since I am using the term.

No he does not.

Well Behe does provide examples of how could someone falsify his theory.

Quote from behe



If you what to claim that ID is unfalsifiable, you have to deal with Behes claim and explain why is he wrong, you can't simply assert that he is wrong, without any justification.

It is obligation for Behe to propose a falsifiable hypothesis to support his view. Scientific hypothesis cannot falsify the negative. Behe has never proposed a scientific hypothesis that will positively demonstrate his assertions concerning ID. If Behe proposes a hypothesis to support Intelligent Design it is his responsibility to present the falsifiable hypothesis, which is the case throughout science.

You claim that flagellums evolved by a process of random genetic change and natural selection right? ..... How can someone falsify your claim ?

No the flagellum did not evolve by a process of random genetic change, It evolved by natural selection based on laws of nature. I provided a detailed reference that supports the falsification of the flagellum. There are more peer reviewed research article that go into this in more detail, bit it appears you have not read nor understand the research article cited.

But I don't want to debate semantics, I told you what I mean by random mutation , so please tell me what term should I use?

What you provided was not a scientific view of randomness. The individual event may not be predicable, but the pattern, frequency, and consequences of mutations are not random as cited and bold in YOUR source.

You should use random in the proper context and not a causal factor that influences the consequences genetic change over time, as in evolution.
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Um... sorry, no.

Please explain, because randomness does not cause mutations. One mutation may randomly occur, because it is unpredictable, and yes caused by the laws of nature, but the pattern, cause and nature of mutations over time is predictable understood and caused by the laws of nature.
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
So what is required to be religious. You do not believe the Authors who support Religious Naturalism do not make an adequate argument for a religion. If so what is inadequate of their presentation?

Not much is required to claim religious, anyone can make the claim to justify what they believe, or make the claim that they are not religious or say they are spiritual and not religious.

The claim of Theistic Naturalism is indeed religious: From: Theistic Naturalism

“Theistic naturalism” is a term used to label an approach to divine action in which theistic belief is upheld but descriptions of events that invoke divine interference with the world are rejected. Historically, theistic naturalism is associated primarily with the deism of the eighteenth century, in which God was seen as little more than the world’s designer, and both miracles and the efficacy of intercessory prayer were denied. More recently, however, other kinds of theistic naturalism have been proposed.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Genesis, the first book in the bible, does not say that God created life.
It says that God "commanded" the earth and then the sea to bring
forth life. I suppose the "commands" are nothing less than the laws
of physics. And from the seas came birds which flew in the air.

Problem, this is like saying the brush and paint painted the picture, and not the artist. What you described is the process of Creation as understood by some described in the Genesis.

The Baha'i Faith describes te Laws of Nature as God's Laws and the medium of Creation, and actually our physical existence has existed eternally with God as a reflection of the attributes of God.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Really, ? Can you quote the exact mutations that occured ?....... No so stop lying, nobody has spotted the mutations necessary to build a flagellum. Nobody knows if there is a viable path of benefitial mutations* that would lead to a flagellum.

Read the reference. You acknowledged that 'Behe and I do not deny the fact that flagellum a came from ancestral systems.' This as per the reference involved specific mutations.

Ok ok you can add a few neutral steps but not too many, the path Is suppose to be mainly positive......agree?

Not many? There is no specific limit for Neutral mutations in our present understanding of evolution. Actually, neutral and positive mutations are fairly rare, and negative mutations do not survive. That is why evolution is over a period of hundreds of thousands or millions of years,

Granted, behe and I do not deny the fact that flagellum a came from ancestral systems.

The claim is that the process of random mutation + NS by themselves can't account for the origin of the flagellum.

You are again describing randomness as causal as to whether evolution can take place naturally or not. The reference you cited clearly described tis is not the case.
 
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