Interesting discussion about religion and evolution

[shunyadragon]

Map of Bronze Age Empires. No Israel

Map: Late Bronze Age Empires – Near East (mid000021) - American Society of Overseas Research (ASOR)

Late Bronze Age Empires ; Mesopotamia ; Anatolia ; Caucasus ; Egypt ; Levant ; Map of the Ancient Near Eastern Empires ; Stephen Batiuk

www.asor.org

​

Map: Late Bronze Age Empires​

Region: Anatolia, Levant, Mesopotamia, Caucasus, Egypt
Description: Map of the Ancient Near Eastern empires of the Late Bronze Age (Hittite, Egyptian, Kassite Babylonian, and Middle Assyrian)
Category: Maps
Type: Kingdom and Empire Maps, Topographic Maps
Period: Late Bronze Age
Date: c. 1300 BCE

 

[Brian2]

I agree it's not the fault of the bible nor does the bible have anything to do with people being good. It doesn't matter what groups you divide people into, some are good some are evil.

God knows this and judges people accordingly.

 

[John53]

God knows this and judges people accordingly.

You could be right but in my experience if there is a God as described in the bible he is an uncaring monster using us as guinea pigs in some weird kind of experiment.

 

[Brian2]

The Merneptah Stele does not describe Israel as a united people. It simply refers to them as defeated by the Egyptians as well as defending Egyptian-occupied Libya and Canaan from invaders.

This region would no longer be Canaan

The Merneptah Stele calls the region Canaan.
Israel were a people in Canaan. Israel was not a type of people, as for example Hapiru, but was a people group,,,,,,, and we know who it refers to and where the name came from. The name came from Jacob (whose name God changed to Israel) and who went to Egypt with his family.

Map showing Egypt 1250 BCE in yellow

Ancient Middle East - 1250 BC by Cyowari on DeviantArt

www.deviantart.com

No, not Egypt, but the Egyptian Empire. Canaan remained Canaan, Libya remained Libya etc.

No, it is not how the NT describes the Noah flood.

2Peter 3:3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

 

[Aupmanyav]

You could be right but in my experience if there is a God as described in the bible he is an uncaring monster using us as guinea pigs in some weird kind of experiment.

It is not God, but victors who decide what is history, whether they be Israelites or Arabs or any other people.

 

[Brian2]

Egyptian Empire map 1480 BCE

The Egyptian Empire c. 1480 BCE - The Map Archive

Pharaoh Thutmose I was a senior military commander who conducted campaigns in Upper Egypt, securing control of Nubia, and during his reign Egypt reached its greatest-ever extent.

www.themaparchive.com

Yes Egyptian Empire.
And it does not mean that Egypt had Egyptian soldiers swarming all over the Empire.

 

[John53]

It is not God, but victors who decide what is history, whether they be Israelites or Arabs or any other people.

This is true.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

That when academia says something we must believe it

No academic has ever said anything even remotely like it.

Au contraire... any academic will tell you to question everything and NEVER just take their word for it.
Instead, they'll tell you to look at the hypothesis and evaluate the evidence.

They'll tell you to believe the evidence. Not just take their word for it.

 

[Sargonski]

Nobody said the tribes of Israel were not active in 1200BC. The Merenptah Stele tells us they were active and identified at that point as a united people, Israel.
If the conquest was just beginning at that time, that would not be the case.




From this site: Egyptian Domination of Canaan during Joshua/Judges.

I think there are good correlation for the destructions of the cities, and also for egypt, but there is an huge problem: if the exodus really occurred in 1500-1450 BC, the Israelites were present in Palestine between 1400 and 1200. But there are a lot of evidences proving that the Egyptians ruled the whole territory during this period of the time, and all the kings of Canaan (who were numerous and divided as it is reported in the Bible) were in fact nothing more than Egyptians vassals with a few autonomy.
You are quite correct that the Egyptians had political control of Canaan in 1400 BC and they maintained that control by means of suzerainty treaties with the kings of the local city states. The reality of the situation, however, was that the Egyptians had very few troops and other personnel in Canaan. They had several administrative centers in the lowlands, such as Gaza, Joppa, Megiddo and Beth Shan, but did not maintain a similar presence in the highlands. It was in the highlands that the Israelites settled, in the area that is often referred to as the central hill country. The areas that the Israelites could not conquer, listed in both Joshua and Judges 1, were the lowlands, the areas occupied by the Egyptians.

From this site: joshua campaign map - Google Search

View attachment 83931

It seems to be the case that the book of Joshua had some bragging and exaggerration, but if Israel was not there in Canaan and then was there, it seems to be the case that Israel, as a people, conquered Canaan, not in a scorched earth way, but so they could live in most of the places that they conquered.
In Joshua and in Judges 1 we read of large areas of Canaan that had not been conquered, it was an ongoing thing as Joshua tells us.
It should not be a big problem to read parts of Joshua as bragging when the plain truth was, and which is told us, is that not all the people of Canaan were killed and that they lived there with Isael.

Your not paying attention to the argument being made .. it is not that the Israelites just started in 1200 .. I said that the Israelite Tribes were likely active and some portion of these people could well have exited Egypt 1500 -1400 which well fits the historical timeline for the Hyksos expulsion. It should be said here that what ever the timeline .. not all of the "Hebrews" that form Israel are in Egypt - and not all of those leaving Egypt were slaves .. albeit more oppressed which is why they leave. The nomadic Tribes occupying the highlands through the region in question are Hebrews .. as are some of the Cities Hebrew cities .. cities controlled by Hebrews .. prior to the Exodus. Hebrew is the language of the Canaanites -- "They All Speak it" and why wouldn't they? Abraham adopts the local language he settles in .. Abraham was a great Nomadic Warrior Chief .. whose seed and/or that of his brother form some of the peoples if we are to believe the Bible. Midianites - Moabites for example .. notice that neither of these peoples went into Egypt .. but the Midianites for example are later merged with the Israelites.

So 40 years is said to have spent wandering around the desert .. this representing a time when not much memory .. but somehow these nomads survive and begin to come into control of a small region say from 1400-1300 .. and become integrated with the Hebrews ..one of the Hebrew Nomadic Tribes many of which have already existed throughout this period holding the various cities that come within some of the territory Joshua is said to have captured. We could look at some of these cities as quazi Vassals of some powerful nomadic clans that rose up and came to control these cities .. The exact same thing happened in Babylon . when the Kassites ruled for 300 years .. these were nomadic tribespeople from the hill country.

What didn't happen is that this Tribal People .. call it a nation around 1300 if you like .. controlling a few cities in the highland .. did not control the entire region shown to be under Joshua's purview. Perhaps some of the northern Tribes did some raids from time to time but they were not in control of all the cities thoughout the region shown on your map .. cities like Jerusalem and Lakesh were under Egyptians control in 1400BC .. which .. if the migration out of Egypt was in 1450 .. wander around the desert for 40 years and integrate with other Hebrew Tribes .. who then Cross the the Jordan into the promised land in 1400 BC - Joshua dies around 30-40 years later .. supposedly having control over all the territory on your map .. by say 1360 BC .. but this didn't happen .. because these Nomadic Tribes .. one of which is mentioned as Israel around 1200 BC perhaps refering to a group of Israelite tribes at this point.. but not much more .. Israel is not some big nation shown on the map in 1200BC that is not what is referred to in the Mernephtah stele. -- as they would have been would they be a great nation controlling all this territory at this time. However .. it is shortly after this time that the conditions arise for these tribes to indeed conquer the territory shown on the map which peaks around the time of David - Solomon .. at which point Jesusalem is finally captured .. becoming part of the Israelite "Empire" around 1000 BC ..along with most of the other cities on the map ... cities that were not under the control of Joshua.

There may well have been .. raids on cities like Jerusalem in 1300-1400 BC by Hebrew-Canaanite Nomads .. Jerusalem was actually a very small town at the time .. say 2000 people .. a Holy Place .. and super well defended .. but they did not contol this nor many of the other cities shown on the map.. as that would be a pretty big "Empire" and such a thing simply did not exist during this time period .. Egypt is the dominant empire in control the Region .... the Hittites in the North.

Sure you could have a loose affiliation of Tribes who control a number of small cities in the mountains .. but not the amount of territory and cities shown on your map... not during Joshua's time suggested around 1370. this is 400 years too early for the empire to have formed - but the writers putting the Bible together in 400 BC - have - in putting together stories from the past .. conflated this time period -- attributed things that the Israelites achieved later .. say around 1000 BC .. to Joshua in 1370 BC or "13-something" BC give or take 50 years.

It simply didn't happen in the 13 something time period .. it did happen in the 1000BC time period and we know for a fact that it happened .. Israel was - while perhaps not an "Empire" was a major Nation in the Region .. and a major Power .. controlling all of the Territory shown on the map .. which was a relatively easy thing to do beacause the Hittite Empire had been wiped off the map .. and Egypt had receded and was no longer a dominating force in the Region. this was the apocalypse of the Bronze Age Collapse which allowed these Nomadic Tribes to rise to power. Tribes that filled the power vacuum created by the Catastrophe .. leaving the land open for Occupation .. not just by the Nomadic Tribes but also by the Sea Peoples.

This power vacuum did not exist in the 14th century .. 1300-1400 BC .. and there was no group of Nomadic Tribes that controlled the large region shown on the your map during that time.

 

[Kenny]

What site? Be specific.
I reviewed your posts and nothing specific was provided. If you did give me post numbers.

I found it in 30 -45 seconds. Pg 21 - 3 supportive finds on Exodus.

Changes over time with new evidence is nothing new, but nothing supporting the Torah account as accurate. If you feel you did simply cite and paste and repost or simply provide post numbers.

If you really read what I said, would you really need to know where it was at?

The bold above is not meaningful because hypothetical future discoveries are unknown and the fallacy of 'arguing from ignorance,' The discoveries so far have demonstrated that there is for example: No evidence of Exodus as described and no evidence of Joshua's army conquering Canaan already conquered, occupied and colonized by Egyptians and Hittites.

Evidence of Exodus posted on page 21.

“Fallacy” is what people usually use when they have no argument to refute what one said. I said that it isn’t the first time that positions changed because they later find the evidence. I gave you two examples which you have not refuted. So if there is a fallacy, it is the fallacy of “I will just ignore logical conclusions and historical data under the “let’s us a fallacy argument” fallacy”. (A new fallacy) )

Considering the overwhelming contradictions based on the evidence there is little hope of finding anything that significantly changes the facts.

IYHO

 

[Kenny]

No academic has ever said anything even remotely like it.

Au contraire... any academic will tell you to question everything and NEVER just take their word for it.
Instead, they'll tell you to look at the hypothesis and evaluate the evidence.

They'll tell you to believe the evidence. Not just take their word for it.

That would be very nice!

 

[shunyadragon]

The thing is that my beliefs on the Exodus are based on Archaeological evidence and how it fits with the Bible story and the Biblical time of about 1450 BC for the Exodus.

Conquered, occupied, and colonized by Egypt as per references and maps.

 

[shunyadragon]

The Merneptah Stele calls the region Canaan.

So? It is documented that the region Called Canaan was conquered, occupied, and colonized by Egypt and the Hittites. The Memeptah still describes the successful defence of Egypt and Canaan by Memeptah.

Israel were a people in Canaan. Israel was not a type of people, as for example Hapiru, but was a people group,,,,,,, and we know who it refers to and where the name came from. The name came from Jacob (whose name God changed to Israel) and who went to Egypt with his family.

All this does is document that the Hebrews were a pastoral tribe in the Hills of Judah nothing more,

No, not Egypt, but the Egyptian Empire. Canaan remained Canaan, Libya remained Libya etc.

False, the maps, and evidence cited clearly document that the regions called Libya and Canaan were conquered, occupied, and colonized by Egypt, The Hittites occupied parts of Canaan. The names for the regions are names for the region nothing more.

2Peter 3:3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

The 'world at that time' refers to the world and not the world as known by Noah. This is what it says unless you have a mistranslation.

 

[shunyadragon]

I found it in 30 -45 seconds. Pg 21 - 3 supportive finds on Exodus.


If you really read what I said, would you really need to know where it was at?



Evidence of Exodus posted on page 21.

“Fallacy” is what people usually use when they have no argument to refute what one said. I said that it isn’t the first time that positions changed because they later find the evidence. I gave you two examples which you have not refuted. So if there is a fallacy, it is the fallacy of “I will just ignore logical conclusions and historical data under the “let’s us a fallacy argument” fallacy”. (A new fallacy) )


IYHO

I responded to this post. I never said something did not happen during the time of Exodus. Did it happen in the 13th or 15th century? I said the problem is 'as described in Exodus.' Yes, the narrative describes some place names, but that only justifies that when compiled they knew the place names. Place names does not justify that the events took place as described as the reference of Mount Ariate does not justify Noah's flood.

Problems are difficult to resolve: No evidence for the numbers involved and the invasion of Canaan by an army led by Joshua.

Not in the article: "The similarities between the two have caused some to speculate that the builders of the Theban house were either proto-Israelites or a group closely related to the Israelites. The evidence indicates the 'slaves in Egypt' were a mix of Semites from the region called Canaan likely from the Egyptian conquest of Canaan.

I still stand by my original argument that the invasion by an army led by Joshua never happened, because there is no evidence for this army, and the region was conquered, occupied, and colonized by Egyptians for over 300 years from before 1500 to 1200 BCE.

Is this the only evidence you have posted?

 

[shunyadragon]

Yes Egyptian Empire.
And it does not mean that Egypt had Egyptian soldiers swarming all over the Empire.

Actually, it does. The historical evidence of forts, mansions, and temples, References like the Stelle documenting the defense of Canaan occupation, and the Amarna letters for the Egyptian governors, and leaders in Canaan. There is other evidence I can cite. The maps alone represent the Egyptian occupation of Canaan for over 300 years eliminating any possibility of a Joshua invasion.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

That would be very nice!

Welcome to the wonderful world of science.
That's how it's been practiced for centuries.

You might try it sometime.

 

[shunyadragon]

Further documentation of the conquest, occupation, and colonization of Canaan;

Egypt in Canaan - Canaan & Ancient Israel @ University of Pennsylvania Museum of Archaeology and Anthropology

For more than 300 years during the Late Bronze Age and early Iron Age, Egypt ruled Canaan. Deities, arts and technology were intermingled between the two cultures.

stele

The Egyptian culture developed alongside Cannan and Ancient Israel for thousands of years. Early on in its history, Egypt was unified under the rule of a single king, or pharaoh. In the Old Kingdom of Egypt (2675&emdash;2130 BCE), the pharaoh was the head a highly centralized government and his officials oversaw massive building projects along the Nile River. The most famous of these projects were the three Great Pyramids built in the Giza Plateau as tombs for the pharaohs Khufu, Khafre and Menkaure. It was also during the Old Kingdom that the process of mummification came into use to preserve the body of the Egyptian deceased. The peace and prosperity of the Old Kingdom ended in years of civil war and discord (c. 2130&emdash;1980 BCE) known as the First Intermediate Period. The Pharaoh Mentuhotep II eventually reunified Upper Egypt and Lower Egypt to begin the Middle Kingdom (c. 1980&emdash;1630 BC). Thebes became the most important center for Egyptian religion and many pharaohs chose to be buried across the Nile River in the Valley of the Kings.

Turmoil once again boiled in Egypt as the Hyksos, foreigners of Canaanite origin, took control of Lower Egypt in the Second Intermediate Period (c. 1630&emdash;1539 BCE). Native Egyptian rulers from Thebes eventually expelled the Hyksos from the Nile River delta and re-established the centralized government. Egyptian control was extended in the New Kingdom (c.1539&emdash;1075 BCE). Aggressive pharaohs marched their armies south into Nubia and north as far as Syria. In 1456 BCE, Pharaoh Thutmoses III won a decisive battle against a coalition of Canaanite rulers at Megiddo. The great Pharaoh recorded his triumph in Egypt: Inasmuch as every prince of every northern land is shut up within it, the capture of Megiddo is the capture of a thousand towns! Annals of Thutmoses III​

predynastic bowl

Egypt used Canaan as a buffer against rival empires further north, such as the Mitanni. Canaan was also a source of revenue through taxes, tribute and trade. Egypt stationed small garrisons in major towns like Jerusalem and created administrative centers like the one at Beth Shean in Israel. These centers had buildings with distinctive Egyptian architecture and were inscribed with hieroglyphs. Canaan developed sporadically under Egyptian rule. Although some major centers prospered, many towns and villages declined in size or were abandoned. No new city walls were built.

Egyptian imperialism led to a dramatic increase in cultural exchange. Many Egyptian bureaucrats and soldiers were stationed in Canaan and Egyptians and Canaanites often lived side by side. Musical instruments, poetry, myths, weapons, clothing designs&endash;even gods and goddesses&endash;passed from one culture to the other. Many of these influences were long lasting. Scribes in Iron Age Judah continued to use Egyptian numbers 550 years after the end of the Egyptian empire.

Although it may be interpreted from Egyptian written sources that Egypt exercised little control over this region after the Nineteenth Dynasty, the archaeological evidence from Palestine suggests otherwise at least for the first kings of the Twentieth Dynasty. Beth Shan remained an Egyptian colony with houses built according to Egyptian style, complete with door lintel inscriptions in hieroglyphics. Egyptian architectural structures, square-shaped houses made of mud-brick, occur at Aphek, Ashdod, Beth Shan (1550 and 1700 houses), Gaza, Hesi, Jemmeh, Joppa, Tell el-Farah S (Sharuhen) and Tell Masos and Tell esh- Sharia (Ziklag). The Timna copper mines continue to be controlled until perhaps Ramesis VI. Egyptian pottery can be cited from many early Iron I sites as well. In summary, it seems at least plausible to suggest that Egypt continued to dominate this region at least until the mid-part of the century and perhaps to the end of the century at least at Beth Shan.

The maps and other references support the above documentation.

Yes, the Canaanite people still lived side by side with the Egyptians, but under the occupied authority of the Egyptians.

 

[metis]

There's plenty of people who follow the bible who have committed some horrific acts. So I'm not sure of your point.

I can't remember who said this, but here it goes anyway: For good people to do good is expected. For bad people to do bad is expected. But for good people to do bad takes religion.

I'm certainly not anti-religious, but when the institution becomes more important that the basic morality they're supposed to preach, that's where I draw the line.

 

[Brian2]

So? It is documented that the region Called Canaan was conquered, occupied, and colonized by Egypt and the Hittites. The Memeptah still describes the successful defence of Egypt and Canaan by Memeptah.

Ah yes.

All this does is document that the Hebrews were a pastoral tribe in the Hills of Judah nothing more,

Well we know where in Canaan the Hebrews were, and the Merenptah Stele says nothing about them being a pastoral people. We also know that they lived in the houses and towns they had conquered. But of course they were semi nomadic farmers for a long time.

False, the maps, and evidence cited clearly document that the regions called Libya and Canaan were conquered, occupied, and colonized by Egypt, The Hittites occupied parts of Canaan. The names for the regions are names for the region nothing more.

So you are saying that Egypt saw Canaan and Libya etc as parts of Egypt instead of being parts of the Egyptian empire.
Wow.
But yes the names of the regions are name for the regions and the name for Israel is a name for a people.

The 'world at that time' refers to the world and not the world as known by Noah. This is what it says unless you have a mistranslation.

Check out the different translations here: 2 Peter 3:6 - The Coming Judgment
It is just that that is the meaning of the word used for world.

 

[Brian2]

Conquered, occupied, and colonized by Egypt as per references and maps.

Well yes, and Israel (the people) snuck in while Egypt was busy with other things, and replaced many of the people in Canaan with themselves and Egypt still thought of and called Canaan part of their Empire and eventually backed away from the area.