• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Interesting video about evolution and origins.

exchemist

Veteran Member
Maybe you can find something in this blog

or in this article
or in his book
The Works of His Hands
or his twitter account
Thanks. However these links don't seem to give much idea about his views on the origin of life and evloution, which seem to be the subject of the video. I did however find a piece he wrote for Biologos, here, which address this these topics: Purpose, Evolution, and Self-Replication - BioLogos

This is about teleology, or teleonomy, in biological systems. Having read this I'm not really sure what he is saying. It read as if he fully accepts the scientific account of how life arose and developed, but marvels at the accuracy of genetic replication. It looks to me as if he is just like the scientists of the c.19th and many in the c.20th and today who saw, and see, the workings of a creator in the beauty and intricacy of natural processes, governed by the underlying order in nature. This strikes me as a fairly mainstream position for a scientist with religious conviction.

I don't see any crude creationism in what he says, in the sense of a god who intervenes in nature to do some "magic poofing". But it seems to me he rather fizzles out, having started out by hinting at teleology and then watering it down to teleonomy - the latter being of course entirely naturalistic in origin.
 
Last edited:

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
"Dr. Sy Garte is a biochemist and has been a professor at New York University....
Those are all great qualifiers for expertise in biochemistry.
But when weighing in on religion, does he actually apply
the scientific method to his claim for not just any of the
many gods people believe in, but the specific Christian
god named "God"?
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
He begins with wondering why more biologists are atheists than other disciplines when there is what seems to be so much design in life etc and comes up with the answer that it is evolution which gives a rationale for all this design for atheists. He even shows a couple of atheists who agree with him about the idea that things look designed.
True. He cites Dawkins in particular, but fails to acknowledge how the appearance of design can be naturally generated, as most biologists contend. He dismisses the idea out-of-hand. It's clear he began his explanation with a presupposition of intentional design.
He gives a few possibilites for how things came to be as they are and makes a point about purposelessness in direction of the naturalist answer, because that is what he wanted to make a point of in this talk, in this apologist teaching lecture.
He does go on to try to say that purpose in biology would be a good thing and that purpose is shown to exist in nature,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, but saying that the whole thing is circular because he states his beliefs at the start is ridiculous.
Yes, but the three "possibilities" are bogus, and his circularity is contrived; derived from his presumption of intentional design.
He goes on to say that evolution is just a biological theory and has nothing to do with the existence of God or the origin of life and that this is not a radical idea. He also says that Darwin admitted that and that he had no idea of the origin of life and that we also do not know.
He says there are stories about consciousness, creativity, love etc human traits which evolution does not explain,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, and he should know that.
Everyone concedes that the mechanics of abiogenesis is, as yet, unknown. It doesn't follow that it's not natural, or that consciousness, love and other celebrated human traits can not be products of natural selection, just like our bipedalism.
He says accurate self replication is important for evolution and that only living things do it. He states his incredulity of this high level of self replication having just happened. He states that accurate self replication is required for evolution, so evolution cannot be required to produce self replication.
Evolution depends on descent with modification., in other words, "pretty good" replication. Completely accurate replication would produce no variation.
iow how did the accurate self replication evolve if it is needed for evolution. (and it is not just in the replication that evolution can happen, so how does accurate self replication,,,,,,,, as we have now,,,,,,, stop evolution, as you claim. Has evolution stopped because of accurate self replication? What is this circular reasoning fallacy you suggest is happening?
There is not completely accurate replication, plus there are other mutagenic and epigenetic forces at work. True, the accuracy of such an extensive genomic duplication is astonishing, but nature has been working on this for almost four billion years, making hundreds of copies per liter of microbe filled water per minute of very simple genomes -- all over the planet. Trillions must have proved too flawed to survive and were eliminated from the gene pool, but the trillions that went on to reproduce possessed, if only by chance, very accurate copying mechanics. Natural selection works on multiple levels.

The circularity results from his beginning with a premise he's already concluded. His conclusion is in the premise.

He is the Professor and so I presume he knows what he is talking about here.
He may be good at explaining the chemistry of DNA replication or Vagal feedback loops, but his logic in concluding "Goddidit" is flawed. Your argument from authority extends only to his area of competence.
He uses the same language that other biologists use when it comes to the Genetic coding and other biologists do say "interprets" "translated", "symbols", "language" etc
Yes, they do, but they're speaking informally, not crafting a formal argument where concise definitions are needed.

Look at the process yourself. Nothing is "decided" or "interpreted" in any conscious sense. DNA polymerase simply adds the complimentary nucleobase to the daughter strand as it moves along the forks of the original DNA molecule. Easy-peasy.
(This was the simplest video I found illustrating the process).
So he wonders where the idea that the genetic code is not a code came from.
From a strict definition of "code" vs pattern, template, or something; he's citing a semantic peccadillo.
If anyone wants to go to this section of the video to explain more about what he means, it is from about 19 minutes to 22 minutes.
But he, as a professor, is pretty certain that there is interpretation involved and reading the code.
I'm sure he understands the DNA 'code' and replication process perfectly. It's his personal incredulity at the complexity of the process that leads to his need to include the hand of God (magic) into the process -- as if that explained or clarified anything. That's where the unwarranted presumption lies.
 
Last edited:

Brian2

Veteran Member
It appears to him that there is design in life. He knows how science is done. Why doesn't he approach the problem properly? That is to properly define one's terminology. State one's explanation clearly. Next how go over how to test it. In other words what observations could possibly show it to be wrong. And lastly go over the results of his research.

Instead it sounds as if it was just 45 minutes of weak handwaving. That is not science. He only wasted people's time.

You have a lot to say about something you have not heard.
He was not doing science, which he knows how to do.
He was explaining some of where atheists/skeptics have it wrong in their analysis of science and even where science agrees with the idea of a designer.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Those are all great qualifiers for expertise in biochemistry.
But when weighing in on religion, does he actually apply
the scientific method to his claim for not just any of the
many gods people believe in, but the specific Christian
god named "God"?

I haven't read his book about why he became a theist or Christian, but I doubt that he applies the scientific method when speaking about God.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
You have a lot to say about something you have not heard.
He was not doing science, which he knows how to do.
He was explaining some of where atheists/skeptics have it wrong in their analysis of science and even where science agrees with the idea of a designer.
Both you and @Valjean confirmed what was on it. You may not have realized the errors that he made. Between the two of you I trust your accounts of the video.

And yes, he was not doing science. You as much as admitted it. Let's go over this:

1702183371530.png


He started out very well. He asked a question. He did a ton of background research. So far so good. But that is as far as he got. He never constructed a hypothesis. And that is key to doing science. One can simply not claim to be doing science if one does not have a hypothesis. One cannot jump to conclusions because he, by definition, does not have any evidence for his beliefs. In case you forgot scientific evidence consists of observations that support or refute a scientific hypothesis.

He only made an ad hoc explanation using arguments from ignorance and incredulity for "support". That is pseudoscience. Without a testable hypothesis his claim that atheists and skeptics have it wrong is just so much hot air.

I know that it may seem to be counter productive, but scientists have to try to refute their own idea. That is because they have to put their idea into a testable form. And the tests are not limited to the ones that the scientist thought of. That means when he publishes every scientist in the world will be trying to refute him and the odds are huge that they will if he did not try to find all of the flaws in his idea before publishing.

I could be wrong. He may have a testable hypothesis, but I do not remember seeing either of you saying that he had one. Val seemed quite clear that he did not.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I haven't read his book about why he became a theist or Christian, but I doubt that he applies the scientific method when speaking about God.
I'll go with certainty that there's
no science practice behind it.
At best, his reasoning is
"not even wrong".
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Commentary continued:

Garte asserts that the systems of DNA transcription, protein assembly, proofreading, &c are tremendously complex. He states the whole complex process must be in place for anything to work -- an irreducible complexity argument, and that the last universal common ancestor had the whole, complex sequences already in place. How he'd know this I have no idea.

The system is incredibly complex and I am guessing that the last universal common ancestor (Luca) evolves from then on, and so the whole system would have to be in place, since all the parts he talks about are needed for evolution to occur.

He then states that the argument for God isn't in evolution, but in origins, ie: abiogenesis. We haven't yet explained it. He can't explain it, hence: God! He dismisses the best evidenced and most likely mechanism of "chemical evolution," as "very, very weak,(later: "it can't happen") and fills the gap with an even weaker and entirely unevidenced proposition: God. He argues that, because of the complexity of it all, purpose and a purposive designer are necessary to account for it -- which sounds like more personal incredulity. No rational reason why chemistry couldn't account for it is proffered. He proposes that the universe we see is exactly what would be expected in a purpose-built, grand design. This strikes me as an unwarranted fine-tuning or design argument.

He does say that we see abstract symbolic information in the genetic code and transmission of that information from one language to another. He says the polymerace interprets the codons and connects appropriate nucleotides in the duplication process.
The argument against God is not in evolution because evolution can fit with what the Bible tells us.
He tells us not only that he can't explain abiogenesis (chemical evolution) but that nobody can and the list of questions and problems keeps getting longer instead of shorter. IOWs he is being a whistleblower on the true situation in abiogenesis studies.
He does give his belief that God did it and puts it way beyond Intelligent design because none of us could do what was done in creating the chemical systems involved.
He gives reasons why chemistry in nature cannot do it. Even in a laboratory it is hard to have the right environment and amounts of chemicals etc etc. The suggestion that chemical evolution could not happen is supported like this.

Sy Garte may be a competent chemist, but he's not much of a logician.
He cites a Royal Society finding that 89% of biologists idenified as atheists. It makes one wonder how they all failed to realise his arguments for God.
@Brian2. Did not notice or consider Garte's a priori God premise, his confirmation bias, or arguments from complexity or incredulity?

Atheists can also apply their confirmation bias of course. Why would most atheist biologists even notice these things anyway, esp when the expectation is that if the keep looking they will find the answers.
One could ask why nobody before Darwin saw what Darwin saw. The suggestion that Darwin was wrong because other biologists or naturalists did not see it, is not a sensible suggestion.
I think the thing about Sy Garte is that he was a third or 4th generation atheist and saw some of the problems while still an atheist so confirmation bias applies less to him than it would to others who came to biology as already believers.
But I can confirm that once a person has a faith, that does make it easier to see what he was explaining and a lack of faith makes it harder to see it,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, especially if you demand scientific tests for the existence of God and that nothing else will do, even for a God who is a spirit.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Thanks. However these links don't seem to give much idea about his views on the origin of life and evloution, which seem to be the subject of the video. I did however find a piece he wrote for Biologos, here, which address this these topics: Purpose, Evolution, and Self-Replication - BioLogos

This is about teleology, or teleonomy, in biological systems. Having read this I'm not really sure what he is saying. It read as if he fully accepts the scientific account of how life arose and developed, but marvels at the accuracy of genetic replication. It looks to me as if he is just like the scientists of the c.19th and many in the c.20th and today who saw, and see, the workings of a creator in the beauty and intricacy of natural processes, governed by the underlying order in nature. This strikes me as a fairly mainstream position for a scientist with religious conviction.

He seems to believe evolution could happen from Luca on, as Luca had the aparatus for evolution.
Before that is unknown and he has trouble seeing that chemical evolution is possible, esp in nature.
He does say that some biologists say that there is observable and testable purpose/goals in organisms and populations of organisms and quotes Dennis Noble from the "Was the Watchmaker Blind? Or Was She One Eyed?" concerning that.

I don't see any crude creationism in what he says, in the sense of a god who intervenes in nature to do some "magic poofing". But it seems to me he rather fizzles out, having started out by hinting at teleology and then watering it down to teleonomy - the latter being of course entirely naturalistic in origin.

I'm not sure how it would be known that teleology was really teleonomy, but I'm sure that would be how it is seen my many biologists.
Btw I just realised that the talk on the video just goes for 28 minutes and the rest is Q@A.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Both you and @Valjean confirmed what was on it. You may not have realized the errors that he made. Between the two of you I trust your accounts of the video.

And yes, he was not doing science. You as much as admitted it. Let's go over this:

View attachment 85501

He started out very well. He asked a question. He did a ton of background research. So far so good. But that is as far as he got. He never constructed a hypothesis. And that is key to doing science. One can simply not claim to be doing science if one does not have a hypothesis. One cannot jump to conclusions because he, by definition, does not have any evidence for his beliefs. In case you forgot scientific evidence consists of observations that support or refute a scientific hypothesis.

He was not doing science but had observations about natural systems through the talk. He was showing that the conclusion of a designer was more sensible than the conclusion that it all just happened.
And let's face it, there is no science that shows that blind chance and natural laws are more sensible than a designer so it is harsh to expect that to be shown scientifically about a being who cannot be studied by science because He is a spirit.
iow the whole thing of origins has to be be answered "we don't know" but we can look at what is the more sensible conclusion based on observations.

He only made an ad hoc explanation using arguments from ignorance and incredulity for "support". That is pseudoscience. Without a testable hypothesis his claim that atheists and skeptics have it wrong is just so much hot air.

I know that it may seem to be counter productive, but scientists have to try to refute their own idea. That is because they have to put their idea into a testable form. And the tests are not limited to the ones that the scientist thought of. That means when he publishes every scientist in the world will be trying to refute him and the odds are huge that they will if he did not try to find all of the flaws in his idea before publishing.

I could be wrong. He may have a testable hypothesis, but I do not remember seeing either of you saying that he had one. Val seemed quite clear that he did not.

Yawn! Testable hypothesis? He should have been doing science in the video? Science is the only way we can find out if there is a God or not?
That's right, the deniable faith of scientism. Yawn,,,,,,,,,, it's all very tiring, I'm going to bed.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
He seems to believe evolution could happen from Luca on, as Luca had the aparatus for evolution.
Before that is unknown and he has trouble seeing that chemical evolution is possible, esp in nature.
He does say that some biologists say that there is observable and testable purpose/goals in organisms and populations of organisms and quotes Dennis Noble from the "Was the Watchmaker Blind? Or Was She One Eyed?" concerning that.



I'm not sure how it would be known that teleology was really teleonomy, but I'm sure that would be how it is seen my many biologists.
Btw I just realised that the talk on the video just goes for 28 minutes and the rest is Q@A.
It doesn’t have to be known. It’s just Ockham’s Razor: if teleonomy can account for what we observe, there no need for the additional postulate of presumed purpose. From what I read in his Biologos piece, he is saying no more than that there is purpose, in a minor sense, in an organism hunting its prey or moving towards the light.

Dennis Noble is no authority at all, by the way, he’s a paid up Intelligent Design huckster.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
It doesn’t have to be known. It’s just Ockham’s Razor: if teleonomy can account for what we observe, there no need for the additional postulate of presumed purpose. From what I read in his Biologos piece, he is saying no more than that there is purpose, in a minor sense, in an organism hunting its prey or moving towards the light.

Dennis Noble is no authority at all, by the way, he’s a paid up Intelligent Design huckster.

According to this site D Noble rejects Intelligent Design.
PZ Myer on the same site has some attacks on his sanity however.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
One could ask why nobody before Darwin saw what Darwin saw. The suggestion that Darwin was wrong because other biologists or naturalists did not see it, is not a sensible suggestion.
Not heard about Wallace - who independently came to the same basic conclusions as Darwin, and where they actually shared the acclaim, even if Darwin went on to more success after his works?
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Not heard about Wallace - who independently came to the same basic conclusions as Darwin, and where they actually shared the acclaim, even if Darwin went on to more success after his works?

Yes I have heard of Wallace. Sounds like evolution was something whose time had come.
 
Top