Interpretation of the Shastras

[nameless]

They are holding their scriptures, their holy scriptures. They are only fingers pointing to the moon – where is the moon?

This is your proverb. Can you tell me what it is saying? Maybe this will make you understand where I was going with my thread.

actually i selected this proverb after viewing your posts.

 

[anupj]

Good post, again no need to apologize. I am glad that you mention it though, my views are a bit unconventional and I see people getting upset, but i think i am right because I keep asking questions with examples and so far no one has answered them honestly.

I am a bit grounded person - I describe myself as an Atheist Hindu. I am a bit of a skeptic when it comes to religion.

Regarding life being a hard and it being a suffering, please transport yourself back in time a few hundred years and imagine what life would be like. Of course it was hard. Take a simple example a headache. What do you do now? easy, just take a pill. well, back then you had to suffer in silence until it went away! Don't even think about an accident happening to you. Back then there were no pain killers, operations with blunt knives were done while you were fully conscious.

And the diseases! People in cold countries were fortunate - the cold kills a lot of bugs. But people living in hot countries like ours were beset by a lot of bugs. It was not uncommon for people to die in their early thirties!

That's where these concepts come from - life was hard, so this is suffering, and if you just blanked out your mind, brainlessly go thru life like a robot, you get release? To me this seems like an easy way out. Think about it, shouldn't getting to Moksha(union with God herself) be a bit more hard than this?

You are right about Karma Yoga - I wish more people would follow this path. But remember doing Karma Yoga means getting involved - getting to know the unfortunate people, their difficulties and then going about and try to solve those problems. It is not going to be easy and I think it is the right path to Moksha. Make this world a better place.

dear friend,
here are some quotes from the Holy Gita

BG 6.9: A person is considered still further advanced when he regards honest well-wishers, affectionate benefactors, the neutral, mediators, the envious, friends and enemies, the pious and the sinners all with an equal mind.

BG 12.13-14: One who is not envious but is a kind friend to all living entities, who does not think himself a proprietor and is free from false ego, who is equal in both happiness and distress, who is tolerant, always satisfied, self-controlled, and engaged in devotional service with determination, his mind and intelligence fixed on Me — such a devotee of Mine is very dear to Me.

BG 12.17: One who neither rejoices nor grieves, who neither laments nor desires, and who renounces both auspicious and inauspicious things — such a devotee is very dear to Me.

BG 18.23- 28 : That action which is regulated and which is performed without attachment, without love or hatred, and without desire for fruitive results is said to be in the mode of goodness. But action performed with great effort by one seeking to gratify his desires, and enacted from a sense of false ego, is called action in the mode of passion. That action performed in illusion, in disregard of scriptural injunctions, and without concern for future bondage or for violence or distress caused to others is said to be in the mode of ignorance. One who performs his duty without association with the modes of material nature, without false ego, with great determination and enthusiasm, and without wavering in success or failure is said to be a worker in the mode of goodness. The worker who is attached to work and the fruits of work, desiring to enjoy those fruits, and who is greedy, always envious, impure, and moved by joy and sorrow, is said to be in the mode of passion. The worker who is always engaged in work against the injunctions of the scripture, who is materialistic, obstinate, cheating and expert in insulting others, and who is lazy, always morose and procrastinating is said to be a worker in the mode of ignorance.

.... and many more

here we can see that Lord Krishna advices us to be detached from our activities, and the result of our activities. He tells us to see everybody with equality. The basic aim behind this seems to make us selfless, to set ourselves free from false ego,

and the most important ones to be mentioned in this thread:

BG 2.47 :You have a right to perform your prescribed duty, but you are not entitled to the fruits of action. Never consider yourself the cause of the results of your activities, and never be attached to not doing your duty.

BG 2.48 erform your duty equipoised, O Arjuna, abandoning all attachment to success or failure. Such equanimity is called yoga.

BG 2.49 :O Dhananjaya, keep all abominable activities far distant by devotional service, and in that consciousness surrender unto the Lord. Those who want to enjoy the fruits of their work are misers.

BG 2.50 : A man engaged in devotional service rids himself of both good and bad actions even in this life. Therefore strive for yoga, which is the art of all work.

so it is evident from these quotes that the Lord asks us to perform our duties. though i cannot tell you what the vedic philosophy says by quoting a few verses, but here we can see that Lord Krishna tells us to perform our duties selflessly, without getting involved emotionally, or being attached to it. and hence as i said earlier, the result of our selfless activity is moksha for the soul.

If i am saying that we should end our suffering, then i am saying that we should not be attached to our work, activities, relations, etc. I appreciate that you worked hard in your school and got good marks. But consider a different person, some one like you does really works hard, and then afterwards becomes victim of politics between the school staff, and his result is not as good as yours in the school. If this guy is detached from his work , and its result, then he can easily continue to work harder, but in case such a guy is very much attached to his work, then after seeing the poor result, he may end up having mental depression or trauma. this is what we call suffering. and it will appear everywhere in one or the other form, where you see people attached to something

if you need any clarification about this you can ask

i have to go now
bye

 

[RamaRaksha]

I disagree, I have a very different view of vedic teachings. I believe in helping this world as much as possible while also trying to develop my spiritual consciousness. But the vedas clearly speak of the nature of this world. It goes in cycles or better and worse. We can try to help, and we will make a difference, but the material world (as long as it is material) will keep recycling greed and suffering. Humans are generally selfish creatures by nature and that is why suffering is inevitable. But I do believe that we can improve the conditions to some extent.

That's just my perspective and opinion. It is based both in scripture and independent thought.

Sorry to do this, but would you be able to repost the 'shirt' example? I can't seem to find or remember it unfortunately.

Agreed that the material world is full of greed and suffering - but it is in our hands to make it better, and that's not by walking away from desires. I am asking you to take responsibility for the society that sorrounds us, ie India is poor because of Indians.

I have lived in the US for quite a long time before coming back to India. Americans as you know are very materialistic, more than Indians as you know. Do you know the number 1 reason why most Indians, even though they face racism in the US, don't want to come back? I want to go back also when the conditions are right.

Americans are the nicest people you can ever meet! They greet strangers, hold doors open if you are following them. They say thanks all the time. If you drop something, there will be at least 10 people ready to help you pick it up. Get on a bus and there are always people ready to give up their seats.

And yet they are very materialistic. I think you have the wrong idea that somehow being materialistc also makes a person bad.

Think of it this way: A person wants to get top marks in school, is he going to cheat? I ask you to go back to your school or college days - think of the top mark getters in your class - how many of them cheated? None! Yes None! And this is not an isolated incident - this is common to all schools and colleges! Having a burning desire to get good marks means that this person spends all day studying, improving his mind, not wasting it sitting on street corners, leans to discipline himself, makes sacrifices so that he can get time to study! How can you not like this desire?

Trillions of dollars have been poured into Africa - a lot of economists say that they have made little difference. What does Africa need - Jobs! They need industries, so that they can make a living, they don't want to live on handouts.

I wil give you an example. Every year the US pours tons of foodgrains as aid to Africa. The grain is so cheep African farmers cannot compete, and are forced to give up farming. Result? A perpetual depedence onf US food aid!

Simply by putting up industries won't solve the problem - there has to be a market for such goods, this is where the consumer comes in. You asked me about the shirt example:

Let's say you want to buy a shirt. Think of how it made it to the store near you. First the farmer who produced the fibre, sells it to a middleman. The middleman then resells the fibre to a factory, employing thousands of workers. The workers work on machines, machines built in other factories. Finally a shirt is made and then transported to the store. You need a transportation industry, a road building industry. The store was built using cement, the lights in the store, air-conditioning - all industries employing people. The store was built by a businessman who will employ several people to run the store - the doorman, the cleaning woman, store clerks, salesmen etc.

Can you calculate how many people make a living because of your desire for a shirt?

The best country is not where a thousand mother teresa's are running around, but where there is no need for a mother teresa. Countries like Sweden or Norway - countries where there is full employment!

There is no dignity for someone who is taking a handout. You may talk how great it is that you are doing good works, but for the receipient, he or she would rather if you can give him a good job so that he doesn't have to humiliate himself and beg for food.

Jobs come from people like Ambani, JRD Tata, Birla - all men driven by their ambitions and desires.

 

[RamaRaksha]

actually i selected this proverb after viewing your posts.

LOL. But I assume you have understood something from this proverb. Let me know what you have understood by this proverb. What is this man trying to say?

 

[RamaRaksha]

BG 6.9: A person is considered still further advanced when he regards honest well-wishers, affectionate benefactors, the neutral, mediators, the envious, friends and enemies, the pious and the sinners all with an equal mind.

As I suggested in my very first post of this thread – where is the evidence of this in the Mahabharata? When did the Pandavas treat the Kauravas as equal to those that they loved? Did not Draupadi hate Duryodhana?

BG 12.13-14: One who is not envious but is a kind friend to all living entities, who does not think himself a proprietor and is free from false ego, who is equal in both happiness and distress, who is tolerant, always satisfied, self-controlled, and engaged in devotional service with determination, his mind and intelligence fixed on Me — such a devotee of Mine is very dear to Me.

Always satisfied is where I disagree. One can keep posting but please answer my question: Your son comes home with bad marks. Should he be satisfied with what he gets? When I was in school or college, I absolutely hated, hated to get bad marks. I was never satisfied with getting ok marks, mine had to be at the top! It made me work hard, instead of wasting time going to movies or just hanging out at the “center”, I devoted my time to hitting the books. I learned to make sacrifices for the sake of getting good marks. Guess what? Those good marks landed me my first job!

BG 12.17: One who neither rejoices nor grieves, who neither laments nor desires, and who renounces both auspicious and inauspicious things — such a devotee is very dear to Me.

Again, did not Arjuna grive for Abhimanyu? Did not the Pandavas constantly berate the Kauravas for all the wrongs that they had committed?

BG 18.23- 28 : That action which is regulated and which is performed without attachment, without love or hatred, and without desire for fruitive results is said to be in the mode of goodness. But action performed with great effort by one seeking to gratify his desires, and enacted from a sense of false ego, is called action in the mode of passion. That action performed in illusion, in disregard of scriptural injunctions, and without concern for future bondage or for violence or distress caused to others is said to be in the mode of ignorance. One who performs his duty without association with the modes of material nature, without false ego, with great determination and enthusiasm, and without wavering in success or failure is said to be a worker in the mode of goodness. The worker who is attached to work and the fruits of work, desiring to enjoy those fruits, and who is greedy, always envious, impure, and moved by joy and sorrow, is said to be in the mode of passion. The worker who is always engaged in work against the injunctions of the scripture, who is materialistic, obstinate, cheating and expert in insulting others, and who is lazy, always morose and procrastinating is said to be a worker in the mode of ignorance.

.... and many more

These words were uttered many thousands of years ago when most people had a job already lined up even before they were born. But today the situation is quite different. You can choose the work that you want to do. You can become a doctor if you like healing sick people, a programmer if you like to work with computers and so on. First comes the desire to become something then the work! Not the other way around. Haven’t you ever asked your son or nephew, what he wants to become when he grows up?

But I do agree that we should help people without expecting a reward. If you are going to help others or perform a puja hoping to get Moksha, that itself is a desire and an expectation of a reward. It is best to be an Atheist in this regard – an atheist helps his fellow man without any expectations of going to heaven or Moksha.


BG 2.47 :You have a right to perform your prescribed duty, but you are not entitled to the fruits of action. Never consider yourself the cause of the results of your activities, and never be attached to not doing your duty.

Example: You are going to take the final college exam of your major, in my case it was Accountancy. I studied hard and was well prepared. As I take the test, I must not dwell on the success or failure of the result, I must concentrate on doing my best.

But once the test is over and the results are out, I must learn from the results! The resulting marks are my responsibility alone. If they are bad, I must question what I had done wrong, and take corrective steps. If they are good, then I must learn to repeat what I had done to get those good marks.

BG 2.48 erform your duty equipoised, O Arjuna, abandoning all attachment to success or failure. Such equanimity is called yoga.

See example above.

BG 2.49 :O Dhananjaya, keep all abominable activities far distant by devotional service, and in that consciousness surrender unto the Lord. Those who want to enjoy the fruits of their work are misers.

That is a desire and I disagree, without desires, one would never undertake anything. Again let’s take the Mahabharata – why were the pandavas fighting and killing? Did they not desire the fruits of war?

BG 2.50 : A man engaged in devotional service rids himself of both good and bad actions even in this life. Therefore strive for yoga, which is the art of all work.

Please remember: God is man, man is God. Make this a better world and you have immersed yourself in the devotion of God. If you never enter a temple for the rest of your life but spend it doing good works and helping others, then you are on the right path.

 

[Madhuri]

Agreed that the material world is full of greed and suffering - but it is in our hands to make it better, and that's not by walking away from desires. I am asking you to take responsibility for the society that sorrounds us, ie India is poor because of Indians.

I have lived in the US for quite a long time before coming back to India. Americans as you know are very materialistic, more than Indians as you know. Do you know the number 1 reason why most Indians, even though they face racism in the US, don't want to come back? I want to go back also when the conditions are right.

Americans are the nicest people you can ever meet! They greet strangers, hold doors open if you are following them. They say thanks all the time. If you drop something, there will be at least 10 people ready to help you pick it up. Get on a bus and there are always people ready to give up their seats.

And yet they are very materialistic. I think you have the wrong idea that somehow being materialistc also makes a person bad.

Think of it this way: A person wants to get top marks in school, is he going to cheat? I ask you to go back to your school or college days - think of the top mark getters in your class - how many of them cheated? None! Yes None! And this is not an isolated incident - this is common to all schools and colleges! Having a burning desire to get good marks means that this person spends all day studying, improving his mind, not wasting it sitting on street corners, leans to discipline himself, makes sacrifices so that he can get time to study! How can you not like this desire?

Trillions of dollars have been poured into Africa - a lot of economists say that they have made little difference. What does Africa need - Jobs! They need industries, so that they can make a living, they don't want to live on handouts.

I wil give you an example. Every year the US pours tons of foodgrains as aid to Africa. The grain is so cheep African farmers cannot compete, and are forced to give up farming. Result? A perpetual depedence onf US food aid!

Simply by putting up industries won't solve the problem - there has to be a market for such goods, this is where the consumer comes in. You asked me about the shirt example:

Let's say you want to buy a shirt. Think of how it made it to the store near you. First the farmer who produced the fibre, sells it to a middleman. The middleman then resells the fibre to a factory, employing thousands of workers. The workers work on machines, machines built in other factories. Finally a shirt is made and then transported to the store. You need a transportation industry, a road building industry. The store was built using cement, the lights in the store, air-conditioning - all industries employing people. The store was built by a businessman who will employ several people to run the store - the doorman, the cleaning woman, store clerks, salesmen etc.

Can you calculate how many people make a living because of your desire for a shirt?

The best country is not where a thousand mother teresa's are running around, but where there is no need for a mother teresa. Countries like Sweden or Norway - countries where there is full employment!

There is no dignity for someone who is taking a handout. You may talk how great it is that you are doing good works, but for the receipient, he or she would rather if you can give him a good job so that he doesn't have to humiliate himself and beg for food.

Jobs come from people like Ambani, JRD Tata, Birla - all men driven by their ambitions and desires.

Rama, you make many good points and I applaud your passion on this subject but I cannot help wondering if all of this discussion is more about your strong desire to change the world for the better and not about attaining liberation as taught in Vedic scripture.
The reason I think this is because you keep bringing this back without addressing the fact that I have agreed with you but stated the facts about moksha. Nobody is telling you that -doing good- will block your path to liberation. We are saying that -selfish- desire is what keeps you here. Talking baout economics is basically off topic.

This is the difference: If you are studying hard to get good grades at school because you feel competitive and want to be better than the other students, then this is selfish desire. But if you want good marks because you want to become intelligent and help society, then it is -selfless- desire and in accord with spiritual activity. If something is selfless, it is done with a quality of love and God is love. Love is the essence of our existence and is the very point. Love is part of the whole process of liberation. So doing good -should- be part of your moral attitude.

But the point also is that doing good might change this world for the better and give you good karma, but it will not take you out of the material world. Ok, so maybe you don't want to get out. Maybe you want to keep coming back here for eternity. I mean, you already have existed forever, what is some more time? So really, there's no pressuer to get out and you really don't have to. It is only that if you get sick of it here, you can look to spirituality in order to realise God and get your ticket to some place better.

In which case you can spend your lives doing good and trying to improve this world -and- also devote your heart to seeking Truth. But that is up to you. I personally think that as a liberated personality you would be able to have some influence on this world. But of course as a liberated person in a Spiritual reality you would no longer be concerned just with this planet as there are infinite universes with infinite souls all struggling to survive under the influence of maya.

Then there is also the fact that no matter what you do in this world there will always be selfish people (that's the nature of this planet!! This is where the selfish souls come to learn their lessons!!) born who will rise to power as they are the only ones who want the power and they will control the masses and cause suffering. We have seen it throughout all of history. There is no good system of government. There is always corruption somewhere. But yes, you can improve things. And you should try to. I agree with this.

Do I make sense?

 

[Madhuri]

I also have a feeling that you have not properly studied the Vedas. I was surprised by your reference to the Mahabharata. Are you aware that Arjuna did not want to fight in the war? He wanted to go to the forest and meditate! It was Krishna who told him to go to battle because it was his DUTY. It had nothing to do with desire.

Selfish desire is bad. Anything selfish is bad. Desiring the fruits of your work in this context relates to selfish desire. Selfless 'desire' is considered good but it will still keep you in this material world. This is what the Bhagavadgita is all about! Have you read it?

Also, reference BG 12.17: is talking about when a person becomes Realised they understand that all of our suffering and perception is -illusion- and temporary. When you uderstand reality then you are no longer phased by death and the general happenings of this world. You understand how rediculous and blind everyone is. So a person who does understand this is dear, because he has managed to work very hadr to remove that covering of maya.

And something else you need to realise: The Pandavas were not acting as realised personalities. Their actions are not meant to be for us to copy! They represented real people in real situations. If Arjuna was perfect, then Krishna would not have had to speak the Gita. Of course the Pandavas did not treat everyone equally. Perhaps this was all for Lila and purpose, but they did not represent Realised personalities. So please do not think that using this as an example hold merit.

 

[nameless]

LOL. But I assume you have understood something from this proverb. Let me know what you have understood by this proverb. What is this man trying to say?

By moon i mean spirituality, you are holding all the scriptures which points to spirituality, but you are not seeing the moon.

 

[nameless]

You started this thread to correct the interpretation of Shasthras, from your comments i understand that you are rejecting Gita ( means you discard all Shasthras).

Just change your definition for few words, and all your doubt would get cleared.

Devotion - Working for welfare for something or someone.
Desire - Aiming something for the personal benefit. Spirituality is ones right to destroy his ego. Living with ego is a sin according to Shasthras.
Yoga - Connection between the self and supreme.


Underline the word 'Duty' used by the Krishna . Imagine you are serving someone, you are doing the hardwork but the result goes to somebody else, that does not mean you cannot bring out your best. Do everything for the well being of the Dharma and not for the false ego.

As I suggested in my very first post of this thread – where is the evidence of this in the Mahabharata? When did the Pandavas treat the Kauravas as equal to those that they loved? Did not Draupadi hate Duryodhana?

so they had their death through accidents which proves that they were nothing but ordinary people in spiritual terms. They were high talented warriors, but they lived according to their own wishes, rarely seeked guidance from Krishna. Dont believe all those people lived during the period of Krishna reached Moksha.

BG 12.17: One who neither rejoices nor grieves, who neither laments nor desires, and who renounces both auspicious and inauspicious things — such a devotee is very dear to Me.

Again, did not Arjuna grive for Abhimanyu? Did not the Pandavas constantly berate the Kauravas for all the wrongs that they had committed?

Arjuna was one among the Pandavas, he too died in accident. Not sure how much Arjuna did applied Gita in his life.

There always existed such problem. Thats the reason why some sages restricted unqualified people to study vedas, just because they are unqualified. It is sure that these people would understand Shasthras in wrong sense.

 

[anupj]

dear friend
i posted the verses intentionally on this thread. I just wanted to see how you interpret them. i am sorry to say but your interpretation does not seem to be right. even i have read them, and tried to interpret them in my own way, but i made conclusions only after reading the entire material, and thinking on it for long. but the points that you made alongwith the verses only indicate that either you have not read the shastras(whichever you are talking about) or you have not interpreted them correctly.

The war was never hoped by Pandavas and after finishing up their stay in the forest, they were supposed to get their kingdom back, but instead King Duryodhana refused to do so. There were many peace treaty proposed and if i can recall, Pandavas came down even to a few number of villages that they asked from Duryodhana (since they did not want the war). But underestimating the power of Pandavas, he kept of refusing and asking for war. Even Lord krishna went himself in the end on the peace mission but Duryodhana tries to arrest him and ignored the peace proposals. Then we see the lord's divine form and thus soldiers were unable to arrest Lord Krishna. After this, Lord Krishna returned to Upaplavya to inform the Pandavas that the only course left to uphold the principles of virtue and righteousness was inevitable - war.

there are many other things that are to be considered in the epic Mahabharata. We cannot jump on conclusions just by reading some verses, or listening to the story from others. I would once again like to remind you that moksha is not a desire, people do not become selfless with the desire of getting moksha. Moksha is actually the result of the selflessness, devotion, detachment, and pure thoughts of people. And you can do a lot of things to improve the society, but you cannot basically change the Laws of Nature that govern all the activities, happenings, thoughts, etc. that we see in this world

 

[zenzero]

Friend anupj,

moksha is not a desire, people do not become selfless with the desire of getting moksha. Moksha is actually the result of the selflessness, devotion, detachment, and pure thoughts of people. And you can do a lot of things to improve the society, but you cannot basically change the Laws of Nature that govern all the activities, happenings, thoughts, etc. that we see in this world

Well interpreted.
[sorry out of frubals for the day.]

Love & rgds

 

[anupj]

Friend anupj,



Well interpreted.
[sorry out of frubals for the day.]

Love & rgds

aaahhhhhh frubals :drool: :eat: