Interpreting different categories of suffering

[Mathematician]

Names will not be used to ensure anonymity.

A friend of mine endured a childhood that can best be described as unideal. I don't want to narrate all of the details, but he was abused by an alcoholic mother and lost his sister to suicide when he was but a middle schooler. Probably as a consequence of this upbringing he was quickly introduced to hard drugs like heroin that in his mind helped alleviate the suffering.

One poignant reminder - to me - of the absurdity in a prospective free will doctrine is the differences in which people live. I have my own fair share of problems to endure, but objectively I can stand back and argue that my life has been reasonably comfortable. I do not appreciate my conditions when a problem arises, but after it concludes. I was never beat (to my recollection), never saw a close relative die by their own hand, never delved into drugs until a late age, and so the platform from which I make decisions is stable.

There's a saying I once heard about wealth "making life easier, but living will always be just as hard." I interpret this quote to mean that what we perceive as suffering is subjective to our experiences. For a child that was born with a silver spoon in his or her mouth, the divorce of parents can be just as emotionally painful as abuse to a kid who grew up around that environment. Do you find some truth in that statement?

Still, how does one reconcile free will, especially as it applies to theological systems of redemption, with the fact we aren't given an "equal playing field?" Please don't interpret this post to be a challenge. I'm just trying to explore this topic further.

 

[dust1n]

Names will not be used to ensure anonymity.

A friend of mine endured a childhood that can best be described as unideal. I don't want to narrate all of the details, but he was abused by an alcoholic mother and lost his sister to suicide when he was but a middle schooler. Probably as a consequence of this upbringing he was quickly introduced to hard drugs like heroin that in his mind helped alleviate the suffering.

One poignant reminder - to me - of the absurdity in a prospective free will doctrine is the differences in which people live. I have my own fair share of problems to endure, but objectively I can stand back and argue that my life has been reasonably comfortable. I do not appreciate my conditions when a problem arises, but after it concludes. I was never beat (to my recollection), never saw a close relative die by their own hand, never delved into drugs until a late age, and so the platform from which I make decisions is stable.

There's a saying I once heard about wealth "making life easier, but living will always be just as hard." I interpret this quote to mean that what we perceive as suffering is subjective to our experiences. For a child that was born with a silver spoon in his or her mouth, the divorce of parents can be just as emotionally painful as abuse to a kid who grew up around that environment. Do you find some truth in that statement?

Still, how does one reconcile free will, especially as it applies to theological systems of redemption, with the fact we aren't given an "equal playing field?" Please don't interpret this post to be a challenge. I'm just trying to explore this topic further.

I wish I could contribute more, but since I don't believe in free will I can not answer your question and since there were no responses I can only conclude that no one has actually reconciled their belief of redemption and inequality.

"Money makes life easier, but living will always be just as hard."

I don't mean to be nit picky, but I can't say I entirely agree with the statement. Living is 'hard'. Everyone becomes uncomfortable at points in time (except few rare occasions involving brain damage, but if you want to see how much more 'joyful' that is, just look it up.) I can't say though that living will always be 'just as hard'. There may be a difficulty to live that is just innate with the human condition, but certainly it doesn't equate the same for a starving child and a high profile banker. It's really the 'just' part. There is no way to quantify how 'hard' can be and is for different people. I think the most important part of the quote is the first have. Money does make life easier, but even that is subject to the context of location. Money certainly doesn't make being lost in the mountains any easier. Not everyone lives in a working economic order or even cares to.

 

[Mathematician]

Thanks for the response.

Just to clarify: I'm a determinist, too.

 

[dawny0826]

I think we have to deal with whatever circumstances we're dealt with and make the best of what we have, regardless. Who defines an "equal playing field"? We all have our hang ups to some extent and at the end of the day, we're all responsible for the decisions that we make and the people that we decide to be.

Naturally, your upbringing influences the type of person that you are but people can rise against adversity, if they want to.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

I also do not believe entirely in free will. My views are a bit more deterministic. As such, the only thing I can really say about suffering is what the Buddha taught, and I don't know if that's appropriate to this thread or category. But, the Buddha did have alot to say on suffering. He once said that his mission was only to teach suffering and the cessation of suffering. So, I would suggest you go to some Buddhist sources to look more closely into the nature of suffering. And Buddhism takes a very psychological point of view on the matter, so you're not just dealing with superstitions and other such ideas. And, if you need more info, there are plenty of Buddhists on this board to ask for help.

 

[Onkara]

One poignant reminder - to me - of the absurdity in a prospective free will doctrine is the differences in which people live. I have my own fair share of problems to endure, but objectively I can stand back and argue that my life has been reasonably comfortable. I do not appreciate my conditions when a problem arises, but after it concludes. I was never beat (to my recollection), never saw a close relative die by their own hand, never delved into drugs until a late age, and so the platform from which I make decisions is stable.

There's a saying I once heard about wealth "making life easier, but living will always be just as hard." I interpret this quote to mean that what we perceive as suffering is subjective to our experiences. For a child that was born with a silver spoon in his or her mouth, the divorce of parents can be just as emotionally painful as abuse to a kid who grew up around that environment. Do you find some truth in that statement?

Still, how does one reconcile free will, especially as it applies to theological systems of redemption, with the fact we aren't given an "equal playing field?" Please don't interpret this post to be a challenge. I'm just trying to explore this topic further.

I reject free will on the grounds that our thoughts, and the actions which follow, are determined by factors, often out of our control. An example is the dysfunctional family model and its impact on children, who are still completely dependent and learning to imitate.

So redemption or reward comes from God's grace. It depends on external factors also. There really is no equal playing field in the environmental or physical sense. However it doesn't mean that life is pointless, in fact, given this model you and I ourselves become external factors which influence others, perhaps others who are less better off, and ever with others who have something better to offer us. Really it is a whole system interacting.

 

[blackout]

It sometimes rather feels like the world itself,
the circumstances surrounding me,
are determined
to undermine and hold me back.
Yet I hold firm to my Will.
I am (at least) equally Self Determined,
and prepared to fight to the death.

I don't really know if it's "free will",
but it is Self Determined Will.
(as in "Iron will" "determined to" succeed)

But yes, obviously so much of what we do,
and feel, is determined by our circumstances.
(including our own biology)

 

[Onkara]

It sometimes rather feels like the world itself,
the circumstances surrounding me,
are determined
to undermine and hold me back.
Yet I hold firm to my Will.
I am (at least) equally Self Determined,
and prepared to fight to the death.

I don't really know if it's "free will",
but it is Self Determined Will.
(as in "Iron will" "determined to" succeed)

But yes, obviously so much of what we do,
and feel, is determined by our circumstances.
(including our own biology)

I like your perspective, UV!
In a specific Hindu philosophy there is a divine will, a power which moves through everything, like a wave. This will is ultimately free as it is divine, we may not be able to predict what we will be do, we are full of potential to create, sustain and destroy. This wave of divine will is self-limited by circumstances, such as our mind and environment, however it is not limited in its nature (as both mind and environment were created by it).

It is said if we focus the mind on one thought, a new thought will arise and this new thought is that wave, that creation.

The point here, with the OP, is that we may have a negative and limited start in life but life itself is still full of potential and change. We may be born into a pitiful state but rise to become outstanding success.

 

[SLAMH]

For a child that was born with a silver spoon in his or her mouth, the divorce of parents can be just as emotionally painful as abuse to a kid who grew up around that environment. Do you find some truth in that statement?

This quite true that environment and the surrounding determine to what degree someone is able to bear the suffering.

Still, how does one reconcile free will, especially as it applies to theological systems of redemption, with the fact we aren't given an "equal playing field?" Please don't interpret this post to be a challenge. I'm just trying to explore this topic further.

I think that casualties and events shape and construct the personality of someone. It is obvious and apparent that the amount of effort to be done on particular situation will vary from someone to another. A poor one might have to take the trouble to fund itself while doing studies, while another is supported by given factors. Both may met with success, yet the inequality quantifies the magnitude of suffering one has to hold.

Free will is indeterminate factor which I fail to explain in words. Through out the life, people change their religions, views and beliefs. This is just a result of experiencing and encountering different situations. Still hold that people own the complete choice to make significant difference in their life at some point of life.

I think that free will co-exist consistently with determinism, nevertheless the considerable impacts of the given factors must not be neglected.

 

[near.lucemferre]

Having AIDS and living in a dying and disease ridden country is suffering.

Having a silver spoon in your mouth and crying when your parents divorce is delusions of suffering.

My two cents. There's what's real and then there's what's 'reality' -- and there are many realities.

 

[dust1n]

:bump: