Intro to my theology (as I see it today)

[Just_me_Mike]

Umm.. So is hell?

Or at least the verses I've read..

But yeah, I do understand.

Than share your side of the story. You will most likely find around five passags that talk about eternal pain.

Present them, and we will discuss.

 

[Light On]

You are wanting verses about hell?

 

[Just_me_Mike]

You are wanting verses about hell?

It isn't that difficult. Hell is just another word for grave. There are many references to that in the New Testament, but almost no references to it in the Old Testament.

However, that is something altogether different than a place of eternal torment and suffering. Which is what I want you to understand. So, I want you to present your information for eternal pain and suffering. I do not want you to present everyplace the word hell (grave) is used in the bible.

Do you see the difference?

 

[Light On]

How about Matthew 25:45-46?

It dosen't flat out say 'Hell is the place of eternal punishment', but it dose say 'eternal punishment' and 'eternal life' is the total opposite (Heaven).

Do you mean to say that 'grave' and 'hell' are the same thing?

Apparently, I'm not following

 

[Just_me_Mike]

How about Matthew 25:45-46?

It dosen't flat out say 'Hell is the place of eternal punishment', but it dose say 'eternal punishment' and 'eternal life' is the total opposite (Heaven).

Do you mean to say that 'grave' and 'hell' are the same thing?

Apparently, I'm not following

45: Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

OK so here we have the verse you presented. It does indeed say there will be everlasting punishment.
Why as a free thinking person would you conclude it is talking about a burning place that people are sitting around feeling pain? Ask yourself that.

The reality, as a free thinker you should be interested in that word punishment. What does it mean, and how is it used in other places of the bible?

If I suggested that the cessation of your soul for eternity, in which you never have a chance at life again, couldn't that be a form of punishment? My suggestion doesn't mean you will be conscious of this once it happens, but it is still the punishment for or alternative to going to heaven.

I could also suggest that now why you are conscious you have the ability to comprehend what it is I am saying, and consider both outcomes. On one hand we can go to heaven with God and all that that entails, or on the other hand simply cease to exist.

To me there is so much more gravity with this scenario than with the popular hellfire pitchfork teaching. Reason being is, it is not a decision based on fear anymore, but a decision on whether or not you like life. A life you are willing to acknowledge that came from God, and learn how to honor God. Otherwise, eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow we die.

The latter many choose, because for reasons unknown to me, they just don't want to be with God, and are quite content with living their lives out here on Earth and then simply dying.

 

[Light On]

Why as a free thinking person would you conclude it is talking about a burning place that people are sitting around feeling pain? Ask yourself that.

Simple. God made a hell. What else would he use it for? Matthew 13:41-43 - Passage Lookup - New International Version - BibleGateway.com <-- Tells about 'fire'. You are not going to find a verse that says, 'Hell is a fire pit that sinners go'. The Bible is not written like that.

Do you really think that simply ceasing to exist is a good enough punishment? Something is only a punishment if you are concious to experience it. So, to quit existing would really contradict punishment. When one is exicuted as a punishment, it is (IMO) the thoughts before he is killed that are the punishment. Mental punishment. So the dying in itself is not all the punishment.

Just makes me believe in hell even more

And I want to go to heaven anyway, so whether there is a hell or not dosen't even matter.

 

[Caladan]

It isn't a big deal. I believe that a person will either go own to live with God for eternity in heaven, or that person will cease to exist.

That's not a very bright philosophy, is it?

For the chosen that go to heaven, they will have an awkward life on Earth, because they just don't fit in. The reason for this is, this world or earth was created by God to appeal to our every sense. The sights for our eyes, the sounds for our ears, the tastes for our mouth, the scents for our smells, and the sensation to feel all that which is around us.

and yet, in your nation it is the non Christian who do not fit in. you are surrounded by God-fearing people itwillend, you are the majority, those who carry with them other sets of beliefs are those who have an awkward life.
by other interpretation it sounds like the Kingdom of heaven to you is for the deaf, dumb and blind. people can appreciate the beauty of the sensual world 'here on earth' without being over indulgent. and holding a strictly Christian belief is not the only way to avoid being over indulgent. there are many balanced people from all walks of life, who carry very distinct beliefs.

God created a wonderful place that can often bring pleasure to each of our senses, so in that regard it can be hard to live here, and at the same time realize that this place is tainted. This is why in my theology, the Jews from Abraham onward had such a tough time with the laws, because the sensations of this world many times led down the wrong road. For example when Moses was in the wilderness and receive Manna from heaven, the people began to grow tired of this, because they want the pleasures of other foods.

You know, some people are overwhelmed by life, some people are lost for all the colors and senses of the bazaar of life, and some are just afraid to live. are you afraid that life is 'tainted'? life is what it is, and there is great strength in touching, smelling and feeling life. some call it sin, for others there is a life in every breath.

However, for those that are not religious or those that do not believe as I do, they will enjoy this world very much so, for said reasons above. It can be quite a lovely place. In fact it can be absolutely amazing!

You are right, it is an amazing place, it also carries a lot of suffering, and religious people are not the only people who are wise to reconcile this with the ecstatic moments they are blessed with.

To me this is where the mercy of God comes in. Even those that are not going to heaven, were able to enjoy a bit of God while they lived. They may have enjoyed a coastal sunset or sunrise, or the birth of a loved one, or the taste of a warm cookie coming out of the oven. Either way, life wasn't that bad for them, even though they are not interested in God.

Perhaps they are not interested in your version of God, or what you think God is. who knows, maybe there are still people out there you can learn a thing or two from, or people who can inspire you spiritually, despite having a completely different take on life, the universe, or God.

Once both parties die, one shifts to heaven, and the other shifts to the grave. Next thing the one that entered the grave will know is judgment day. This will be a period of time where they realize that God was real, and all they enjoyed came from God, and then will understand why they will cease to exist. After this they will just disappear.

So this is God's little moment of gloating and self righteousness? wouldn't a truly merciful deity will let them perish in whatever sweet memories and moments they had?

The big question is, why? Why bother doing that if they are just going to disappear? What many don't realize is that a great many people are not as passively anti-God as others. There are many that openly challenge and talk bad about any idea of God. It is because of these people that God will make aware to all people that do not go to heaven, that He is God.

Im thinking that God, as a supreme force of wisdom and intelligence would be above such pettiness and immature human need of the constant worship from others, or even for recognition. I imagine that a truly good God, would work behind the scenes, and perhaps remain unknown for even billions of years into the future of humanity, and simply inspire a life of wisdom and tolerance for them.

This is my thread, if you have questions about my beliefs please ask. If you want to preach your beliefs, start your own thread.

I have a couple of questions, if you will.
What is the source of your bold claims and certainty in your beliefs, how did you come to develop them? do you really claim certainty for all that you have posted, can you truly proclaim wisdom and experience for others to conform to these beliefs, as they evidently carry a warning in them. have you ever pondered the Oracle of Delphi's declaration to the surprised Socrates that he is the wisest man there is, because he has admitted that he knows nothing? bear in mind, hear is a man who has been immortalized in human history as an embodiment of wisdom.
another question, since you confess belief in Jesus, how do you feel that Jesus did not go to those of religious integrity exclusively, but he has talked, preached, spent time, and even died with the outcasts and freaks of society? the prostitutes, the thieves, the criminals.
I'll end my post with something I have often played around with in thought.. remember this, and you will never judge another. Judas was once a disciple, and the person crucified next to Christ, in fact the only person Christ has ever promised a place in heaven in the entire Bible, was a convicted criminal facing capital punishment.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

First thanks for your feedback on everything, it was certainly plenty to consider.

I have a couple of questions, if you will.
What is the source of your bold claims and certainty in your beliefs, how did you come to develop them?

If I am honest about it, I would say Harold Camping has certainly been a huge influence on me. I have never met the man, and I realize his material is not infallible, though something about what he teaches makes a lot of sense to me.

do you really claim certainty for all that you have posted, can you truly proclaim wisdom and experience for others to conform to these beliefs, as they evidently carry a warning in them

It is right for me. Part of my approach is to never ask people to believe me, but check out what I say compared to the bible. If it makes sense to them fine, if not, that's OK too. However, I would be perfectly comfortable teaching people these views to the best of my ability, and telling them it is what I believe to be true. I am open to learn from others, and expect the same from others.

have you ever pondered the Oracle of Delphi's declaration to the surprised Socrates that he is the wisest man there is, because he has admitted that he knows nothing? bear in mind, hear is a man who has been immortalized in human history as an embodiment of wisdom.

I have not, but feel very much the same way at times, as noted about Socrates here. I feel as soon as I learn something I realize I have learned nothing at all. I think the wise man realizes that when we understand there is an eternal infinite creator above us, our learning is like the breadcrumbs leading to something else.

another question, since you confess belief in Jesus, how do you feel that Jesus did not go to those of religious integrity exclusively, but he has talked, preached, spent time, and even died with the outcasts and freaks of society? the prostitutes, the thieves, the criminals.

If you recall he spent time in the synagogue a lot. As a young boy talked in the temple. However, you are correct there was emphasis put on the sinners. There is no doubt he came for sinners. The rhetorical idea here is that we are all sinners aren't we (according to the bible, anyway)? Personally, I feel what Jesus did and who he spent time with, spoke more to the state of Judaism at the time, than anything else. Judaism had consistently let God down, and it peaked with the death of Jesus.

Personally in my life, I try not to be a respecter of persons either, because I have been at the top and at the bottom. I have lived on the streets, in a prison, and now I live in a 4100 sqft home (that I can barely afford these days).

I'll end my post with something I have often played around with in thought.. remember this, and you will never judge another. Judas was once a disciple, and the person crucified next to Christ, in fact the only person Christ has ever promised a place in heaven in the entire Bible, was a convicted criminal facing capital punishment.

Absolutely! My wife and I talked about that last night as a matter of fact. We considered that God is just not to be taken for granted, because one day you can be an apostle, and the next an enemy. On a similar note, is the life of Pharaoh, I have often felt sorry for him, because God would not let him let Moses go. God forced Pharaoh to do what he did. That is a sobering and humbling concept to have to consider, when believing in this God of mine.

 

[shadze]

sigh your theology has so much holes its a joke.

Here is some points.

1 Why on earth should seperate his creation when He simply could of destroyed the
faulty ones naming adam and eve and create more perfect creatures. I believe thier is no lack of DUST?

2 If only a few are for God then seriously that is such a low number considering only a minority will be with him. I think this would only glorify Satan rather than God!!!

3 Is your God so powerless that he cant have his cake and eat it. Why should he have few ,when all could be with him?

4 Annihilation is a inequivocal waste of resources hasnt your God got a rehibilatation plan !!!

I truly sdont believe in elitism. This logic has been the degradition of humankind

 

[Just_me_Mike]

sigh your theology has so much holes its a joke.

Here is some points.

1 Why on earth should seperate his creation when He simply could of destroyed the
faulty ones naming adam and eve and create more perfect creatures. I believe thier is no lack of DUST?

2 If only a few are for God then seriously that is such a low number considering only a minority will be with him. I think this would only glorify Satan rather than God!!!

3 Is your God so powerless that he cant have his cake and eat it. Why should he have few ,when all could be with him?

4 Annihilation is a inequivocal waste of resources hasnt your God got a rehibilatation plan !!!

I truly sdont believe in elitism. This logic has been the degradition of humankind

First, I would look into getting a spell check, as you post if embarrassing to read.
Second, this thread is not in a debate section, but the level of your spelling may indicate the level of your intellect as well, sorry for you.
Third, this theology is based on the evidence I have at hand using the bible, and as such it reflects that.
Lastly, your pathetic points reveal that you have never read the bible, and what you have been exposed to reflects little to no depth of understanding, research, or valid point of view, other than a child on a rant.
:sleep:

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

sigh your theology has so much holes its a joke.

Here is some points.

1 Why on earth should seperate his creation when He simply could of destroyed the
faulty ones naming adam and eve and create more perfect creatures. I believe thier is no lack of DUST?

2 If only a few are for God then seriously that is such a low number considering only a minority will be with him. I think this would only glorify Satan rather than God!!!

3 Is your God so powerless that he cant have his cake and eat it. Why should he have few ,when all could be with him?

4 Annihilation is a inequivocal waste of resources hasnt your God got a rehibilatation plan !!!

I truly sdont believe in elitism. This logic has been the degradition of humankind

First, I would look into getting a spell check, as you post if embarrassing to read.
Second, this thread is not in a debate section, but the level of your spelling may indicate the level of your intellect as well, sorry for you.
Third, this theology is based on the evidence I have at hand using the bible, and as such it reflects that.
Lastly, your pathetic points reveal that you have never read the bible, and what you have been exposed to reflects little to no depth of understanding, research, or valid point of view, other than a child on a rant.

Rarely do I find myself fully in agreement with itwillend, but this is one of those times. :yes:

 

[ellenjanuary]

The big question is, why? Why bother doing that if they are just going to disappear? What many don't realize is that a great many people are not as passively anti-God as others. There are many that openly challenge and talk bad about any idea of God. It is because of these people that God will make aware to all people that do not go to heaven, that He is God.

This is my thread, if you have questions about my beliefs please ask. If you want to preach your beliefs, start your own thread.

I love, therefore I live. Eternal life, for me, has little appeal. I'd imagine that the freethinkers out there find enough in the life given for joyousness; and perhaps learn from life's lesson a certain virtuousness.

My question to you, then; would be thusly. Does god accept those who denied him in life; if that denial merely arose in response to disillusionment from standardized religion?

Nice thread, btw.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

I love, therefore I live. Eternal life, for me, has little appeal. I'd imagine that the freethinkers out there find enough in the life given for joyousness; and perhaps learn from life's lesson a certain virtuousness.

My question to you, then; would be thusly. Does god accept those who denied him in life; if that denial merely arose in response to disillusionment from standardized religion?

Nice thread, btw.

Thank you. The information available in the bible, is that God looks, searches, and acts upon the hearts of each individual according to His will. Some for destruction and others for life. God knew beofre time who would become saved, and as such all I can say is if you have a desire to know God, or a desire to know the truth, the best way is to pray to God, and read the bible.

I won't lie to you and say there is some process you can go through to know God, because I personally believe God will find you, and not the other way around.

It is becoming more and more apparent that churches have interests other than teaching what is in the bible. I will refrain from commenting on other religions and their texts at this time, but your observation is certainly shared by many who look at standardized religions.

Good luck!

 

[shadze]

First, I would look into getting a spell check, as you post if embarrassing to read.
Second, this thread is not in a debate section, but the level of your spelling may indicate the level of your intellect as well, sorry for you.
Third, this theology is based on the evidence I have at hand using the bible, and as such it reflects that.
Lastly, your pathetic points reveal that you have never read the bible, and what you have been exposed to reflects little to no depth of understanding, research, or valid point of view, other than a child on a rant.
:sleep:

sigh first of all degrading a persons writing and vocabulary suggest that you are insecure and your other comments suggest judgement you will regret.You do not know me or my background

Lets start at your doctrinal evidence. You look like a annihaltionist. A doctrine that was not the main doctrine of the church. The church believed in salvation for all.
please present your scripture as I so like a debate with you. Or is it because
you have no scipture and your theology is to weak to be judged by others.
I think you wrote this in a non debate thread because you are insecure and the best you can do is demonsterise anyone who challenges you. My points actually are both valid and extremely scriptural. I challenged your logic not yourself and im suprised
you got offended.Ok enough of this put your money where your mouth is if you dare.

Salvation is for all mankind not a few please explain this


Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Your elitist theology is what it is. A waste, why on earth would God create mankind if so few will be saved.

 

[Breathe]

-- Mod Post --

Alright, let's avoid any more personal, off-topic remarks shall we guys?
It's not helping anyone, after all.

Critisize the view, not the person.

-- End of Mod Post --

Now, kiss and make up. :flirt:
​

 

[Just_me_Mike]

I have been designing a diagram to help illustrate my theology. It is a little complex looking but really very simple, once it is explained. Here is a snapshot of the diagram, and also a link to a full screen shot that will require you to scroll left/right and up/down to see everything.

Pay particular attention to the northern most section, as it explains the rest of the circle.
FULL SCREEN SHOT Once you click on this you can zoom in by clicking on the image on most browsers.
Any questions please let me know. I will explain the diagram in a separate post.

 

[shadze]

I have been designing a diagram to help illustrate my theology. It is a little complex looking but really very simple, once it is explained. Here is a snapshot of the diagram, and also a link to a full screen shot that will require you to scroll left/right and up/down to see everything.

Pay particular attention to the northern most section, as it explains the rest of the circle.
FULL SCREEN SHOT Once you click on this you can zoom in by clicking on the image on most browsers.
Any questions please let me know. I will explain the diagram in a separate post.

mmm Firstly I would like to comment that your theology is very humane than most.
Please correct me if I write anything incorrect. Because not everyone will be saved,
God has already chosen those who would be with him. Looks like a Arminianism - Annihilist viewpoint. In all honesty this seems more humane than the Weslyan viewpoint.Because I totally disagree as Im of the Universalist persuation as I believe eventual salvation for all mankind. Thank you for this diagram.

 

[Tiapan]

In New Guinea is a highland tribe, famous for their smiling disease, they are a pleasant quiet people, I would not call them evil. When a relative dies they eat them, they are cannibals, the smiling disease is a virus which attacks the brain so when eaten it is passed on. In their culture this cannibalism is the ultimate sign of respect. Should these guys go to heaven, under the terms of your particular brand of religion and super being.?

Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuru_%28disease%29
Cheers

 

[Just_me_Mike]

In New Guinea is a highland tribe, famous for their smiling disease, they are a pleasant quiet people, I would not call them evil. When a relative dies they eat them, they are cannibals, the smiling disease is a virus which attacks the brain so when eaten it is passed on. In their culture this cannibalism is the ultimate sign of respect. Should these guys go to heaven, under the terms of your particular brand of religion and super being.?

Ref: Kuru (disease) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Cheers

The question is a complex one, because one has to understand the workings of how God saves someone. For example, once Jesus was manifested on Earth, those that never understood the power of faith in God, now really had an opportunity to understand what faith meant.

So when Abraham was alive, there is no indication he knew of Jesus, but he did have faith that God was his salvation from the death to come.

Since there is so much emphasis on the merit of one's heart, and God repeats this throughout the Old and New Testament, it is impossible to say what God will do with those in tribal secluded lives that have never been exposed to God's words. There is an indication in the New Testament, that God can save these people because the content of their heart. Maybe on the theory, that if they did know the Jesus story, they would believe. In other words, God knows who would and wouldn't believe the Jesus story if it was heard, and can thus save based on that alone.

So I do not judge this situation because it is beyond our scope to know such things, but at least we can know it is possible.