Investigating Sacred Waters, Rivers and Deities

[Native]

Investigating Sacred Waters, Rivers and Deities

I´m posting this OP here as I take the ancient Myths of Creation to count for real facts of cosmic formation.

Abstract:
It really shouldn´t come as a surprise to anyone that ancient myths and texts have lost its initial meaning as most world cultures have become more and more materialized and less spiritual. This of course plays a huge role when it comes to interpreting the ancient myths and their initial meanings.

Another huge cause to misunderstand the ancient myths is that modern science and laymen fails to see the astronomical and cosmological facts in the ancient myths and just take these as mumbo jumbo and fairytales. They read of numerous cultural Stories of Creation, but it doesn´t seem for most persons to count for what in fact is created – or scientifically formed, if the religious term bothers anyone.

Besides all this, the mythical story heritage is interpreted in terms of historic ideas of “wars” and very often in a dualistic method description.

Down below, you can find several relevant “watery links” to this OP, but I´ll like to describe and discuss a single example with the Ganges River and how this is interpreted in several ways which is disconnected from the very myth itself and interpreted as geographic locations and events of historic rulers.

The Ganges River Example
Excerpt:
“In Hinduism, the river Ganges is considered sacred and is personified as the goddess Ganga. She is worshiped by Hindus and Buddhists who believe that bathing in the river causes the remission of sins and facilitates Moksha (liberation from the cycle of life and death), and that the water of the Ganges is considered very pure. Pilgrims immerse the ashes of their kin in the river Ganga, which is considered by them to bring the spirits closer to moksha”.

Me: Fair enough.

Goddess Ganga holds an important place in the Hindu pantheon. Ganga is described as the melodious, the fortunate, the cow that gives much milk, the eternally pure, the delightful, the body that is full of fish, affords delight to the eye and leaps over mountains in sport, the bedding that bestows water and happiness, and the friend or benefactor of all that lives.

Me: Here both celestial and terrestrial matter is mixed together where the “milky descriptions” really should lead to a precise interpretation, as noted below.

Legend:
“Bhagavata Purana depicts the birth of the Ganga. According to the text, Vishnu in one of his incarnations appeared as Vaman in the sacrificial arena of Asur King Mahabali. Then in order to measure the universe, he extended his left foot to the end of the universe and pierced a hole in its covering with the nail of his big toe. Through the hole, the pure water of the Causal Ocean (Divine Brahm-Water) entered this universe as the Ganges River. Having washed the lotus feet of the lord, which are covered with reddish saffron, the water of the Ganga acquired a very beautiful pink colour. Because the Ganges directly touches the lotus feet of Lord Vishnu (Narayana) before descending within this universe, it is known as Bhagavat-Padi or Vishnupadi which means Emanating from the lotus feet of Bhagavan (God). It finally settles in Brahmaloka or Brahmapura, abode of lord Brahma before descending to planet Earth at the request of Bhagiratha and held safely by lord Shiva on his head to prevent destruction of Bhumi Devi (Mother Earth). Then, Ganga was released from lord Shiva's hair to meet the needs of the country according to Hinduism.

Me: Clearly this context deals with creative cosmological/cosmogonical matters of the creation and not of a litteral descending of Goddess Ganga to planet Earth – which is furthermore interpreted in the following paragraph.

The Ganga Descent to Earth
“Bhagiratha prayed to Brahma that Ganga comes down to Earth. Brahma agreed and he ordered Ganga to go down to the Earth and then on to the nether regions so that the souls of Bhagiratha's ancestors would be able to go to heaven”.

Me: What is it which “descents to the Earth”? As mentioned in the excerpt above, “In Hinduism, the river Ganges is considered sacred and is personified as the Goddess Ganga. We then have a specific mythical described connection between celestial and terrestrial realms.

In the mythical descriptions, the Milky Way Figure is imagined and symbolized, amongst other, as “a foaming river in the night Sky”. The Milky Way is observed as a whitish crescent “watery foaming” vaulting revolving figure above the Earth in the night Sky, thus seemingly frequently touching the Earth, i.e. “descending to the Earth”, thus making “a heavenly way”.

In this sense it is logical to describe this Milky Way figure/goddess to be “leaping over mountains in sport”, as scholarly noted in the excerpt above. This “watery” Hinduistic Ganga Goddess clearly resembles the Milky Way just like the Egyptian Goddess Hathor, who also resembles the vaulting Milky Way figure.

Regarding “watery rivers in the Sky”, the numerous cultural “Flood Myths” also concerns the mythical Milky Way River “running in the night Sky OVER and AROUND the Earth and not ON the Earth “as a devine revenge”. The very same biblical descriptions of “waters above and below” in the creation story also deals with heavenly matters of creation.

My conclusions:
It is perfectly sensible that humans all over the world worship holy waters as this term derive from the very holy Milky Way Stories of Creation (= formation). In this matter, most ancient cultures and ancient tribes even worships EVERYTHING as being sacred and holy.

But this deep ancient religious feelings for everything is having huge present problematic conditions all over the places. Even the terrestrial river Ganges itself is seriously polluted by industrial production by the economical priorities before the holy nature - and STILL the deep religious feeling in "everyday human individuals" holds onto its sacredness and to the ancient rituals of cleansing.

It´s about high time the politicians all over the world turns back to the ancient holy feelings.

Well, this was my prime example to the OP of “Investigating Sacred Waters, Rivers and Deities”, and if you have any further questions or comments in general, feel very welcome. Maybe we later on can take other mythical examples into considerations too. Feel free to suggest similar relevant myths to discuss.

The above promised relevant links here:
Sacred waters - Wikipedia
Cosmic ocean - Wikipedia
List of water deities - Wikipedia
Cosmic Oceans: The Primordial Waters of Ancient Creation Myths

Enjoy and Best Wishes from
Native

 

[pearl]

Its our loss that today myth is understood as false and no longer understood as the embodiment of a profound truth.

 

[ecco]

The Ganges River Example
Excerpt:
“In Hinduism, the river Ganges is considered sacred and is personified as the goddess Ganga. She is worshiped by Hindus and Buddhists who believe that bathing in the river causes the remission of sins and facilitates Moksha (liberation from the cycle of life and death), and that the water of the Ganges is considered very pure. Pilgrims immerse the ashes of their kin in the river Ganga, which is considered by them to bring the spirits closer to moksha”.

Me: Fair enough.

When the stories of Goddess Ganga were written, the Ganges was probably still unpolluted. Goddess Ganga didn't warn people to stop dumping their waste matter into her bloodstream. More realistically, the people who wrote stories about Goddess Ganga didn't know anything about s**t polluting even great bodies of water. That shows that the stories are nothing more than just stories written by ignorant people pushing a religious agenda, not by people who had "ancient wisdom".

 

[ecco]

Me: Clearly this context deals with creative cosmological/cosmogonical matters of the creation and not of a litteral descending of Goddess Ganga to planet Earth – which is furthermore interpreted in the following paragraph.
...
Me: What is it which “descents to the Earth”? As mentioned in the excerpt above, “In Hinduism, the river Ganges is considered sacred and is personified as the Goddess Ganga. We then have a specific mythical described connection between celestial and terrestrial realms.

Its our loss that today myth is understood as false and no longer understood as the embodiment of a profound truth.

More examples of "ancient wisdom" that didn't even know that s**t pollutes rivers.

 

[pearl]

Plato, the paradigmatic product of Greek culture, understood the role of myths. He never thought it necessary to explain them. Thus, usually after plumbing some philosophical question as deeply as he could by rational dialectic, Plato sometimes culminated the discussion with a myth. He saw that reason can grasp only so much of a great truth and insight. The rest he incorporated into myth. His Republic, for example, is an expression of precise and rational thought at its best, and yet this great work culminates in the myth of Er, to make the point that our understanding of our ultimate good can be conveyed in no other way. In the same work he invents a tale of men imprisoned in a cave and thus limited to shadows and echoes until liberated and compelled to look at things as they really are, and at the sun that illuminates everything. Final truth, the story suggests, cannot be discovered by unaided intelligence. Plato’s understanding of myths is perhaps most clearly seen in his portrayal of a dialogue between Socrates and Protagoras. Protagoras, in this dialogue that bears his name, is asked to render an account of how virtue is taught. He offers to do this in either of two ways, by straightforward exposition, or by myth. It is thus understood that these are two quite different paths to one and the same truth, and Socrates does not question this presupposition. Protagoras then complies, by inventing an elaborate and instructive myth.

excerpt from 'Richard Taylor on the proper role of myths and mysteries.'

 

[Native]

When the stories of Goddess Ganga were written, the Ganges was probably still unpolluted. Goddess Ganga didn't warn people to stop dumping their waste matter into her bloodstream. More realistically, the people who wrote stories about Goddess Ganga didn't know anything about s**t polluting even great bodies of water.

You completely missed the very OP. Which also is why you furthermore replied:

That shows that the stories are nothing more than just stories written by ignorant people pushing a religious agenda, not by people who had "ancient wisdom".

 

[Native]

More examples of "ancient wisdom" that didn't even know that s**t pollutes rivers.

How can you tell since you even dont understand the very OP? Stop polluting this OP with your s++t.

 

[Native]

Final truth, the story suggests, cannot be discovered by unaided intelligence.

Agreed in the principle and this is also the case of understanding the Creation Myths. If the reader have no astronomical and cosmological knowledge, they are lost in the mythical symbolic department too.

 

[gnostic]

My conclusions:
It is perfectly sensible that humans all over the world worship holy waters as this term derive from the very holy Milky Way Stories of Creation (= formation). In this matter, most ancient cultures and ancient tribes even worships EVERYTHING as being sacred and holy.

Ok...

The Ganges River Example
Excerpt:
“In Hinduism, the river Ganges is considered sacred and is personified as the goddess Ganga. She is worshiped by Hindus and Buddhists who believe that bathing in the river causes the remission of sins and facilitates Moksha (liberation from the cycle of life and death), and that the water of the Ganges is considered very pure. Pilgrims immerse the ashes of their kin in the river Ganga, which is considered by them to bring the spirits closer to moksha”.

Me: Fair enough.

But what do the Ganga, Ganges, bathing in the Ganges, remission of sins and moksha have to with the Milky Way?

Goddess Ganga holds an important place in the Hindu pantheon. Ganga is described as the melodious, the fortunate, the cow that gives much milk, the eternally pure, the delightful, the body that is full of fish, affords delight to the eye and leaps over mountains in sport, the bedding that bestows water and happiness, and the friend or benefactor of all that lives.

Me: Here both celestial and terrestrial matter is mixed together where the “milky descriptions” really should lead to a precise interpretation, as noted below.

Except that milk are not fresh water in the rivers, nor are there any milk in the salty water of the seas. And fishes don’t swim in milk, and how would you know that fishes feel “delight”.

And do you really think the fishes benefited from people bathing in the river, wash their clothes in the river, urinate into the river, dump rubbishes into the Ganges, dump ashes of deceased?

I don’t bloody think so.

And nothing in the symbolism of Ganga’s milk or your summarizations/interpretations of the myths have anything to do with the Milky Way.

You are reaching, and stretching the myth to fit with your personal belief of the Milky Way, just as you did with the Egyptian Hathor in past threads.

 

[Native]

Native said: ↑
The Ganges River Example
Excerpt:
“In Hinduism, the river Ganges is considered sacred and is personified as the goddess Ganga. She is worshiped by Hindus and Buddhists who believe that bathing in the river causes the remission of sins and facilitates Moksha (liberation from the cycle of life and death), and that the water of the Ganges is considered very pure. Pilgrims immerse the ashes of their kin in the river Ganga, which is considered by them to bring the spirits closer to moksha”.

But what do the Ganga, Ganges, bathing in the Ganges, remission of sins and moksha have to with the Milky Way?

Simply because the Milky Way is thought to be a celestial "Ganges River in the Sky" and the bathing in the terrestrial Ganges is cleansing - if it wasn´t for the industrial pollution.

"Moksha"
Moksha is a term in Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism and Sikhism for various forms of emancipation, enlightenment, liberation, and release.
In its soteriological and eschatological senses, it refers to freedom from saṃsāra, the cycle of death and rebirth.
In its epistemological and psychological senses, moksha is freedom from ignorance: self-realization, self-actualization and self-knowledge.

As the Myths of Creation specifically speaks of creation/formation of the Milky Way and where "we come from and where we go to" this collective knowledge circle of life gives peace in mind and release individuals from all dualistic chains and judgements.

Native said: ↑
Goddess Ganga holds an important place in the Hindu pantheon. Ganga is described as the melodious, the fortunate, the cow that gives much milk, the eternally pure, the delightful, the body that is full of fish, affords delight to the eye and leaps over mountains in sport, the bedding that bestows water and happiness, and the friend or benefactor of all that lives.

Me: Here both celestial and terrestrial matter is mixed together where the “milky descriptions” really should lead to a precise interpretation, as noted below.

Except that milk are not fresh water in the rivers, nor are there any milk in the salty water of the seas.

You forgot to follow the underlined sentense:

In the mythical descriptions, the Milky Way Figure is imagined and symbolized, amongst other, as “a foaming river in the night Sky”. The Milky Way is observed as a whitish crescent “watery foaming” vaulting revolving figure above the Earth in the night Sky, thus seemingly frequently touching the Earth, i.e. “descending to the Earth”, thus making “a heavenly way”.

Milk(y) Way = A galactic river in the sky = Resembling the Ganges River.

And do you really think the fishes benefited from people bathing in the river, wash their clothes in the river, urinate into the river, dump rubbishes into the Ganges, dump ashes of deceased?
I don’t bloody think so.

I don´t bloody think so, too - which I clearly expressed here:

But this deep ancient religious feelings for everything is having huge present problematic conditions all over the places. Even the terrestrial river Ganges itself is seriously polluted by industrial production by the economical priorities before the holy nature

And nothing in the symbolism of Ganga’s milk or your summarizations/interpretations of the myths have anything to do with the Milky Way.

The Ganga Goddess Legend says:
"Bhagavata Purana depicts the birth of the Ganga. According to the text, Vishnu in one of his incarnations appeared as Vaman in the sacrificial arena of Asur King Mahabali. Then in order to measure the universe, he extended his left foot to the end of the universe and pierced a hole in its covering with the nail of his big toe. Through the hole, the pure water of the Causal Ocean (Divine Brahm-Water) entered this universe as the Ganges River. Having washed the lotus feet of the lord, which are covered with reddish saffron, the water of the Ganga acquired a very beautiful pink colour. Because the Ganges directly touches the lotus feet of Lord Vishnu (Narayana) before descending within this universe, it is known as Bhagavat-Padi or Vishnupadi which means Emanating from the lotus feet of Bhagavan (God). It finally settles in Brahmaloka or Brahmapura, abode of lord Brahma before descending to planet Earth at the request of Bhagiratha and held safely by lord Shiva on his head to prevent destruction of Bhumi Devi (Mother Earth). Then, Ganga was released from lord Shiva's hair to meet the needs of the country according to Hinduism".
--------------------
Do you think this "measuring the universe" text deals with matters on the Earth only and an ancient Hindu goddess who once walked on the Earth? I bloody don´t think so - to use your own words.

You are reaching, and stretching the myth to fit with your personal belief of the Milky Way, just as you did with the Egyptian Hathor in past threads.

I know I´m stretching my explanations far beyond your limited understanding of the ancient myths - and you give me much to much credit for your taking the ancient collective human knowledge to by "my own".

To me it´s really funny that you´re having troubles understanding that ancient myths are speaking of the entire creation/formation - and STILL you cannot rise your mind and soul above the terrestrial realms.

 

[Vinayaka]

Good thread. Holy waters are abundant.

I'll add another example, that of Lac Ste. Anne, an indigenous pilgrimage site in western Canada. It has been known as such since before European arrival in the Americas. For those interested, here is the explanation of the history of it. Just now I discovered it was know to Lakota Sioux, whose territory was further south. Before that I thought it was Cree only.

History

 

[Native]

Good thread. Holy waters are abundant.
I'll add another example, that of Lac Ste. Anne, an indigenous pilgrimage site in western Canada. It has been known as such since before European arrival in the Americas. For those interested, here is the explanation of the history of it. Just now I discovered it was know to Lakota Sioux, whose territory was further south. Before that I thought it was Cree only.

Thanks for your contribution

History
"First called Wakamne (or “God’s Lake”) by the Alexis Nakota Sioux Nation who live on the west end of the Lake and Manito Sahkahigan (or “Spirit Lake”) by the Cree".
------------
This fits very well to my interpretations of the "Sacred Waters" in generally and it furthermore confirms how ancient native cultures regards everything ON and ABOVE the Earth to be sacred and mutually connected and your reply also made me think of Wakan Tanka, the Great Spirit.

As said before: As the very Milky Way is mythically symbolized as a celestial River in the Sky in several cultures, it´s obvious why the sacredness of waters plays a huge importance as water is the essential basis for all life on Earth.

 

[Vinayaka]

Thanks for your contribution

History
"First called Wakamne (or “God’s Lake”) by the Alexis Nakota Sioux Nation who live on the west end of the Lake and Manito Sahkahigan (or “Spirit Lake”) by the Cree".
------------
This fits very well to my interpretations of the "Sacred Waters" in generally and it furthermore confirms how ancient native cultures regards everything ON and ABOVE the Earth to be sacred and mutually connected and your reply also made me think of Wakan Tanka, the Great Spirit.

As said before: As the very Milky Way is mythically symbolized as a celestial River in the Sky in several cultures, it´s obvious why the sacredness of waters plays a huge importance as water is the essential basis for all life on Earth.

I've only personally FELT it at two places: Lake Superiour and Kootenay Lake in BC. We (My SO and me) tried to get to Ganga but a massive traffic jam came up.

So for me, it's personal and far more about feeling than history or analysis. I'm sure pilgrims feel the same way. To Lac. Ste. Anne, they walk, often 100 miles or more. So too in India.

 

[Native]

I've only personally FELT it at two places: Lake Superiour and Kootenay Lake in BC. We (My SO and me) tried to get to Ganga but a massive traffic jam came up.
So for me, it's personal and far more about feeling than history or analysis. I'm sure pilgrims feel the same way. To Lac. Ste. Anne, they walk, often 100 miles or more. So too in India.

Agreed, in the intuitive feelings foremost, as this is the prime setting of being able to sense and grasp the sacredness in everything. Personally, I just have to sit quietly in the nature close to where I´m living on the wonderfull watery surrounded Baltic Island of Bornholm.

 

[Native]

Subject: Cosmic Ocean, Primordial Waters and scientific Cosmic Clouds

Abstract
As I take ancient Stories of Creation as concrete informations, it is very interesting for me to compare ancient myths with modern cosmological science and see where and if they concur or differ from each other. In the following, I have the Milky Way as my focus point and takes modern cosmological terms in generally in my comparisons.

Enjoy

Cosmic ocean - Wikipedia
A cosmic ocean or celestial river is a mythological motif found in the mythology of many cultures and civilizations, representing the world or cosmos as enveloped by primordial waters.

In creation myths, the primordial waters are often represented as originally having filled the entire universe, being the first source of the gods cosmos with the act of creation corresponding to the establishment of an inhabitable space separate from the enveloping waters.

Me: This is a common explanation in all cultural Creation Myths all over the World. The ancient term of “Cosmic Ocean” fits very well to the modern scientific idea that 99,99 % of the Universe consists foremostly of hydrogen and helium = fluent watery elements = the Cosmic Ocean.

Creation myth - Wikipedia
A creation myth (or cosmogonic myth) is a symbolic narrative of how the world began and how people first came to inhabit it. While in popular usage the term myth often refers to false or fanciful stories, members of cultures often ascribe varying degrees of truth to their creation myths. In the society in which it is told, a creation myth is usually regarded as conveying profound truths, metaphorically, symbolically and sometimes in a historical or literal sense. They are commonly, although not always, considered cosmogonical myths—that is, they describe the ordering of the cosmos from a state of chaos or amorphousness.

Me: “false and fanciful stories” is said by persons who fail to connect the ancient Stories of Creation to the correct celestial realms. They simply don´t understand the ancient myths and it symbols, and even if reading directly of astronomical and cosmological contents in the stories of creation/formation, they STILL can´t grasp the ancient stories and make the correct connections, but just goes into denial modes.

Ogdoad (Egyptian) - Wikipedia
In Egyptian mythology, the Ogdoad (Ancient Greek: ὀγδοάς "the Eightfold"; Ancient Egyptian: ḫmnyw, a plural nisba of ḫmnw "eight") were eight primordial deities worshiped in Hermopolis

“The eight deities were arranged in four male-female pairs: Nu and Naunet, Amun and Amaunet, Kuk and Kauket, Huh and Hauhet. Apart from their gender, there was little to distinguish the male gods and female goddesses; indeed, the names of the females are merely derivative female forms of the male name.

Me: The use of male and female terms illustrate in general contracting and repulsing qualities and forces of cretion/formation.

"Essentially, each pair represents the male and female aspect of one of four concepts, namely the primordial waters (Nu and Naunet), air or invisibility (Amun and Amaunet), darkness (Kuk and Kauket), and eternity or infinity (Huh and Hauhet)”.

Me: By this, it is very clear that the Egyptians thought the Universe to be of an eternal nature and not a result of “a Big Bang” as speculated and thought in modern science. These eight/four pairs represent the principles of creation via “contraction and repulsion” as said below too:

“Together, the four concepts represent the primal, fundamental state of the beginning, they are what always was. In the myth, however, their interaction ultimately proved to be unbalanced, resulting in the arising of a new entity. When the entity opened, it revealed Ra, the fiery sun, inside. After a long interval of rest, Ra, together with the other deities, created all other things”.

Me: The four eternal concepts create everything when coming together thus forming/creating and revealing a primeval first “fiery entity”. In the wiki quotation (and all over in encyclopedias and books) scholars and authors interpret this “fiery entity” to be the Sun, “Ra” but this isn´t correct as this primordial first light is “familiarly” connected to the Egyptian Goddess Hathor who specifically resembles the Milky Way.

The conclusion is then that this primordial first light represents the central light in the Milky Way, thus dealing with a story of creation of the Milky Way itself as this light “created all other things” as said in the context. It logically cannot be our Sun which has created the Milky Way contour which is resembled by the Hathor Goddess waulting over the Earth.

Once again, scholars and authors have no other options but to interpret this primordial light as Ra, the Sun, but in fact this should be Atum-Ra, the central Milky Way light – from where the Sun was created as “amongst all other things”.

The Egyptians spoke of a creation of the Milky Way – as most other cultures did/does too, and NOT of the creation/formation of the entire Universe as this was thought to be of an eternal nature.

Edit: A scholary example of mythical misinterpretation - Ancient Egyptian creation myths - Wikipedia

"The different creation myths have some elements in common. They all held that the world had arisen out of the lifeless waters of chaos, called Nu. They also included a pyramid-shaped mound, called the benben, which was the first thing to emerge from the waters.

These elements were likely inspired by the flooding of the Nile River each year; the receding floodwaters left fertile soil in their wake, and the Egyptians may have equated this with the emergence of life from the primeval chaos. The imagery of the pyramidal mound derived from the highest mounds of earth emerging as the river receded".

Me: It´s very revealing that this scolar/author are confusing the very Story of Creation originated from the Cosmic Waters with the geographic river Nile.

And furthermore:

"The sun was also closely associated with creation, and it was said to have first risen from the mound, as the general sun-god Ra or as the god Khepri, who represented the newly-risen sun. There were many versions of the sun's emergence, and it was said to have emerged directly from the mound or from a lotus flower that grew from the mound, in the form of a heron, falcon, scarab beetle, or human child"?

Me: Does the Sun rise from a mound? Or from a Lotus Flower? Does the Sun look like a Heron, Falcon, Scarab, Beetle or a human child? Of course not. All these symbols belongs specifically to the very Story of Creation from the primordial waters.

And:
"Another common element of Egyptian cosmogonies is the familiar figure of the cosmic egg, a substitute for the primeval waters or the primeval mound. One variant of the cosmic egg version teaches that the sun god, as primeval power, emerged from the primeval mound, which itself stood in the chaos of the primeval sea".

Me: Here the author correctly refers to the Story of Creation heritage but STILL without understanding the very cosmological context which is connected to the creation/formation of the Milky Way

The modern explanation of creation/formation:

Nebular hypothesis - Wikipedia – Read this link and it´s very extended attempt to explain the issue - but the modern story of creation/formation goes very briefly like this:

Me: A random cosmic cloud of dust and gas (metallic and watery elements) collapse by itself into a star, which fuses and forms all kinds of “metallic and gaseous elements” into its surroundings, which again accretes/collapse and become planets.

So far, this principle modern explanation could fit very well to the Egyptian story of creation/formation above – but each speaks of a creation of very different objects/realms as the Egyptian story deals with the creation of the Milky Way AND the Solar System amongst “everything else created” from the initial “fiery light”

Despite the huge elaborated modern story, this doesn´t even take the Milky Way into consideration when explaining the Solar System formation, even as this is an integrated part of the Milky Way rotation and formation.

The modern story has lots of loose ends to it when analyzing the context logically.

How can an existing random cosmic cloud do work on itself and “collapse to a star” which become nuclear? And if the sun radiates “metallic elements and gas” in it´s surroundings, how come the planets are made in the very much same plane around the sun? Why is it that modern science ignores the Milky Way connection and it´s naturally formed and rotating disk, similar to the planetary orbital disk plane around the Sun?

Conclusively:
Ancient cultures did know from direct observations and by intuitive visions, of the very eternal principle basics of creation/formation and they had a circular natural perception of the creation/formation, very contrary to the modern linear perception and its sudden “good-like formation” of the entire Universe.

But behind this strange and unnatural/un-scientific idea of a “Big Bang”, lots of modern cosmological informations can be interpreted and compared with the ancient terms and symbols of the very Creation/formation – and in some cases, the ancient explanations provides more logics than the modern speculations, just by its circular and eternal perceptions.

Comments and questions are very welcome.

Best Wishes from
Native

 

[ecco]

You completely missed the very OP. Which also is why you furthermore replied:

Did I miss something or did you write:

I´m posting this OP here as I take the ancient Myths of Creation to count for real facts of cosmic formation.

Nope. I missed nothing. The gist of this/your thread is to once again peddle your ideas that The Ancients knew a lot about everything and we moderns have lost that knowledge. I merely pointed out that your ancients didn't even know that if enough people's poop goes into a river, that river becomes polluted.

The ancients knew as much about the cosmos as they knew about polluting a river - Nothing.

 

[Native]

Nope. I missed nothing. The gist of this/your thread is to once again peddle your ideas that The Ancients knew a lot about everything and we moderns have lost that knowledge. I merely pointed out that your ancients didn't even know that if enough people's poop goes into a river, that river becomes polluted.
The ancients knew as much about the cosmos as they knew about polluting a river - Nothing.

You´re simply a waste of time and space. You´re not contributing with anything else but your ignorant trolling comments.

 

[Onoma]

Good topic to investigate

There are many interesting associations between divinity / gods / God and water/s/lakes/rivers/floods, afaik, they date back to at least Babylonian, if not Akkadian or Sumerian, literature

For example, new moon and eclipses were called " floods " in literature, while " flood " or " deluge " was a common sobriquet for a priest-king ( Whose duties included calculating and announcing new moons and eclipses - this, afaik, stopped around the time of the Levites )

Even the Hebrew word for " prophet " comes from the earlier Akkadian word for " waters " ( In that case referring to " wisdom " )

As late as the 7th century, we have the myth of the Quinotaur ( Sea beast ) that supposedly produced the lineage of Merovingian kings

 

[gnostic]

Me: The four eternal concepts create everything when coming together thus forming/creating and revealing a primeval first “fiery entity”. In the wiki quotation (and all over in encyclopedias and books) scholars and authors interpret this “fiery entity” to be the Sun, “Ra” but this isn´t correct as this primordial first light is “familiarly” connected to the Egyptian Goddess Hathor who specifically resembles the Milky Way.

The conclusion is then that this primordial first light represents the central light in the Milky Way, thus dealing with a story of creation of the Milky Way itself as this light “created all other things” as said in the context. It logically cannot be our Sun which has created the Milky Way contour which is resembled by the Hathor Goddess waulting over the Earth.

Once again, scholars and authors have no other options but to interpret this primordial light as Ra, the Sun, but in fact this should be Atum-Ra, the central Milky Way light – from where the Sun was created as “amongst all other things”.

You seem incapable of grasping that no one in prehistorical, ancient and medieval times, couldn't see the central bulge, nor the bar, nor the galactic centre of the Milky Way, from the angle of view.

The light that we do see come from the stars that cause the interstellar gases and dust to glow on the Carina-Sagittarius arm. It is this spiral arm that immediately blocked our view from the centre. And behind that arm is the main spiral arm of Scutum-Centaurus.

With 2 spirals blocking our view, there is no way for the ancient Egyptians to know that the Milky Way have a centre.

That glowing part you see on the Milky Way, is the Sagittarius arm. The only way to see past those arms of dust, gases and stars are with telescopes equipped with far-infrared filter and radio-telescope with x-ray capabilities, and I am quite sure the ancient civilisations have no such telescopes.

That's the fact of the matter.

All you are doing is mixing what we know today about our galaxy, with your speculations and interpretation of ancient myths to fit in with your belief.

Me: This is a common explanation in all cultural Creation Myths all over the World. The ancient term of “Cosmic Ocean” fits very well to the modern scientific idea that 99,99 % of the Universe consists foremostly of hydrogen and helium = fluent watery elements = the Cosmic Ocean.

Again, these are gases, not liquid hydrogen or liquid helium. Not the same things.

Yes, there are abundance of hydrogen and helium, but they are not in liquid forms.

Interstellar clouds and molecular clouds of gases are normally inert, until they are hit by ultraviolet, x-ray or gamma radiations. These higher frequencies will cause these gases to ionize (lose their electrons).

That's what CAUSE THESE CLOUDS OF GASES to glow.

And that's what we and the ancient people see, when we look at the Milky Way, the glow from spiral arms, not the centre.

 

[Native]

Even the Hebrew word for " prophet " comes from the earlier Akkadian word for " waters " ( In that case referring to " wisdom " )
As late as the 7th century, we have the myth of the Quinotaur ( Sea beast ) that supposedly produced the lineage of Merovingian kings

Thanks for your contributions - This makes much sense to me.

As ancient cultures described the very creation as a result from "the primordial waters" this "water" really is equal to knowledge and wisdom of the creation.

Regarding the Quinotaur Myth, this concurs to the general "Sea Serpent" terminology in myths. For instants in Norse Mythology, we have the Midgaard Serpent encircling Midgaard, the home of humans i. e. the Earth. IMO this serpent resembles the very contours of the whitish Milky Way band wich is observable all around the Earth. So it´s very understandable that for instants the Egyptian deities and faraos had a serpent as a prime head gear attribute.

And in such connection, it is very understandable that this "serpent beast" "produced the lineage of Merovingian kings".