Iran Nuclear Agreement

[Moishe3rd]

[QUOTE="Moishe3rd, post: 4440551, member: 46389"... letting Iran make and use whatever weapons and power it wants to attempt to destroy the United States and Israel...

But not nukes, and that was what the negotiations were for. W/O Iran going along, estimates have it that they could have maybe as much as 10 nukes within 2 years, and Israel bombing Iranian sites might extend that by maybe an additional year.

So, three years from now, would you rather see Iran having nukes or not?

That is precisely what I am intimating vis a vis "Alternatives."
You are positing that either we make this bad deal with Iran or they will have "10 nukes within 2 years."
Quite frankly, I don't believe that Iran will ever develop nuclear weapons - they might possibly buy them from Pakistan or North Korea, but they will never develop them.
Number One - They claim they have no interest in developing nuclear weapons. Based on this deal and the international pressures against Iran and YOUR opinion above - everyone apparently believes that they are lying through their teeth and have taken every opportunity to violate international sanctions and develop nuclear weapons. Hmmm... But, they are NOT lying when they say they'll stop now? Okay.
Number Two - It is in Iran's best interest and part of the overall Muslim culture to claim to be far more powerful than they really are.
This has been proven time and time again - President Bush is condemned because Saddam Hussein acted as though he was developing nuclear weapons (WMD's were indeed found by the way but, that is different story).
Sanctions have crippled Iran and would continue to cripple Iran were they kept in place. The US and Israel have managed to successfully sabotage their nuclear program for over 10 years. They could continue. The US could also support Iranian regime change which Obama did not when it occurred on his watch.
There are many more options than those you state.

 

[Revoltingest]

But what the heck, let's just give them a $100,000,000,000+ and see if they do something warm and fuzzy with it. What could go wrong?

That's chump change compared to directly attacking them.
(I doubt we can find a proxy to do it for us again.)

 

[Revoltingest]

Sanctions have crippled Iran and would continue to cripple Iran were they kept in place. The US and Israel have managed to successfully sabotage their nuclear program for over 10 years. They could continue. The US could also support Iranian regime change which Obama did not when it occurred on his watch.
There are many more options than those you state.

This situation would not last. As things stand with our relationships with Russia & China, I see Iran moving into a greater alliance with them.
This would do several things.....
- Remove economic pressure.
- Give them access to better weaponry.
- Further polarize relations between Iran & the west.
- Make Americastan & particularly Israelistan even more trigger happy.

 

[Moishe3rd]

This situation would not last. As things stand with our relationships with Russia & China, I see Iran moving into a greater alliance with them.
This would do several things.....
- Remove economic pressure.
- Give them access to better weaponry.
- Further polarize relations between Iran & the west.
- Make Americastan & particularly Israelistan even more trigger happy.

What makes you think Russia wants to "remove economic pressure" from Iran? Russia wants to sell things to Iran and NOT have Iran sell their oil.... That's a win win for Russia.
Russia is already selling them weaponry; centrifuges; and anything else Iran can pay for... Has been for years.
Further polarize relations? What does that mean? Iran is going to want to destroy us more? Iran is going support less terrorism and murder? I don't understand.
Trigger happy... Good to know you feel safer without all them trigger happy folk trying to protect your ***... Gezunt heit. You should live and be well.

 

[metis]

I do not believe that you understand the nature; structure; or belief system of the Iranian government.
Vilayat al Fiqh or Rule of the Jurist, is a new Shia Cult invented by the late Ayatollah Khomeini. His contemporary and today's leading Shia cleric, the Grand Aytollah Sistani, has expressed doubts about the theological legitimacy of this cult. To be clear - Sistani has not condemned it nor even officially separated it from Shia Islam - to do so would be to incur the wrath and probable attack on him by the Iranians. This would further the sectarian splits in Islam, this time between Shia Iran and the rest of the Shia world.
However, Vilayat al Fiqh is a theocracy. Ayatollah Khameini and the Council of Clerics/ Guardian Council (Islamic Jurists) have Absolute "Guardianship" in the Islamic Republic of Iran. The President of Iran is empowered by the Guardian Council, not vice versa.
The religious purpose of this government is to Rule during the Occulation of the Hidden Imam. Their religious duty is to do whatever they can to "reveal" the Hidden Imam who will then rule the world with Islamic justice. According to their belief, one way to do this is through attacking all non believers - which basically is anyone who opposes Iranian Vilayat al Fiqh Shia Islam.
This is governmental and religious doctrine, not to be abjured by anyone!

In addition, there is a long history of NOT believing despotic regimes when they say that they want to destroy "you" and, subsequently, having those despotic regimes try and destroy you.
History is a valuable tool. History clearly demonstrates that the statements of "We will destroy you," is intentional regime policy, not bellicose rhetoric.

I have studied Islam quite thoroughly, including an all-day seminar on it at U of M as well as several other seminars (I belonged to the Counsel On North African and Near Eastern Studies for roughly 15 years at U of M), so the above is not new news. Right now there's a power struggle of sorts going on, and even though the Khameini has the last word of sorts, the belief of some experts is that he'll more likely go in the president's direction.

By chance did you watch Fareed Zakaria's program on CNN yesterday whereas he interviewed three experts on this, including David Frum? All three felt that the Iranian president's proposal is likely to prevail. If not, then Iran will likely suffer the consequences.

 

[metis]

OK, with 2 of the five, Russia and China, I agree that they are unlikely to change their current support, however the other countries are democracies and there are strange political winds blowing in Europe right now and changes in their current administrations could have quite unpredictable outcomes.

This sounds reassuring but the "President" answers directly to the Supreme Council and serves at their pleasure.

But what the heck, let's just give them a $100,000,000,000+ and see if they do something warm and fuzzy with it. What could go wrong?

The three European countries simply have made it clear that they think it's a done deal with them, which is why you haven't heard any debate coming from them. As far as the rest, see what I previously posted.

 

[Revoltingest]

What makes you think Russia wants to "remove economic pressure" from Iran? Russia wants to sell things to Iran and NOT have Iran sell their oil.... That's a win win for Russia.
Russia is already selling them weaponry; centrifuges; and anything else Iran can pay for... Has been for years.
Further polarize relations? What does that mean? Iran is going to want to destroy us more? Iran is going support less terrorism and murder? I don't understand.
Trigger happy... Good to know you feel safer without all them trigger happy folk trying to protect your ***... Gezunt heit. You should live and be well.

As things stand, Iran has endured far more destruction at our hands than vice versa.
And our rhetoric (eg, special bombs developed just to attack Iran) will certainly influence
them in the direction of being able to retaliate more effectively, with nukes as possible resort.
Another attack on the scale of the US supported Iraq war on them could justify this as
needed for survival. Moreover, the rhetoric of destruction flies in both directions.

Those attacks on Iran were not for my protection. If anything, they made the country less
secure by creating more numerous & motivated enemies. Our policies have failed miserably
the last half century. It's time to try being less of an enemy, instead of crushing the enemy.

 

[metis]

That is precisely what I am intimating vis a vis "Alternatives."
You are positing that either we make this bad deal with Iran or they will have "10 nukes within 2 years."
Quite frankly, I don't believe that Iran will ever develop nuclear weapons - they might possibly buy them from Pakistan or North Korea, but they will never develop them.
Number One - They claim they have no interest in developing nuclear weapons. Based on this deal and the international pressures against Iran and YOUR opinion above - everyone apparently believes that they are lying through their teeth and have taken every opportunity to violate international sanctions and develop nuclear weapons. Hmmm... But, they are NOT lying when they say they'll stop now? Okay.
Number Two - It is in Iran's best interest and part of the overall Muslim culture to claim to be far more powerful than they really are.
This has been proven time and time again - President Bush is condemned because Saddam Hussein acted as though he was developing nuclear weapons (WMD's were indeed found by the way but, that is different story).
Sanctions have crippled Iran and would continue to cripple Iran were they kept in place. The US and Israel have managed to successfully sabotage their nuclear program for over 10 years. They could continue. The US could also support Iranian regime change which Obama did not when it occurred on his watch.
There are many more options than those you state.

As far as the first part, every single military and nuclear expert that I have read or heard from says the opposite-- I didn't pull these estimated figures out of thin air. And logic should suggest that you're entirely wrong or why would Netanyahu have said otherwise, plus why would the three European signatories push for this agreement?

Secondly, it is very clear that even if we kept the sanctions, our allied signatories are not going to. It's a done deal with them. And let me just state that it's rather obvious that the sanctions did not stop Iran's nuclear program and could not stop Iran from developing nukes.

Thirdly, could you please explain how Obama could have conducted "regime change" in Iran? Please be as specific as you can.

 

[Jake1001]

We haven't really heard much about this in a while. Can anyone update us?

I found this, and it looks like things are moving along nicely:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/15/world/middleeast/iran-nuclear-deal-centrifuges.html

 

[metis]

We haven't really heard much about this in a while. Can anyone update us?

I found this, and it looks like things are moving along nicely:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/15/world/middleeast/iran-nuclear-deal-centrifuges.html

It's moving along, but I'm not sure I would use the word "nicely". There's still some in-fighting going on in Iran with the leadership that, like us Americans, have some sharp areas of disagreement. We're seeing a barrage of harsh rhetorical words against the U.S. and Israel coming from some, but this is not unusual, although we always need to take it at least somewhat seriously. Much of it is public profiling in a face-saving kind of way, which is pretty typical for the region.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

... there are strange political winds blowing in Europe right now and changes in their current administrations could have quite unpredictable outcomes.

I vote that we leave the whole thing up to Jerry Corbyn.

 

[mohammadshiamuslim]

hello my friends.
i am from iran.
we just defend ourselves.
when Israel and USA have several of nuclear warhead and history shows their wars by innocent people,we see our duty to defend ourselves .
we didnt have any imposed war against any nation.
they just fear from our ideology.not our power military.

 

[columbus]

i am from iran.
we just defend ourselves.
when Israel and USA have several of nuclear warhead and history shows their wars by innocent people,we see our duty to defend ourselves .

Do you believe Iran is planning to get a nuclear weapon?
I do. That's because I would if I had been under attack by a nuclear power for so many decades.
Tom

 

[mohammadshiamuslim]

Do you believe Iran is planning to get a nuclear weapon?
I do. That's because I would if I had been under attack by a nuclear power for so many decades.
Tom

this is not important.
i know if they dont threaten iran,iran will not do any work.
we just defend ourselves.

 

[YmirGF]

I vote that we leave the whole thing up to Jerry Corbyn.

Um, okie dokie.

 

[Jake1001]

hello my friends.
i am from iran.
we just defend ourselves.
when Israel and USA have several of nuclear warhead and history shows their wars by innocent people,we see our duty to defend ourselves .
we didnt have any imposed war against any nation.
they just fear from our ideology.not our power military.

Hello Mohammad, may peace be with you. It is true, we fear your idealogy. Do you have any idea why ?

 

[mohammadshiamuslim]

Hello Mohammad, may peace be with you. It is true, we fear your idealogy. Do you have any idea why ?

hello my friend.
because zionist rule the world and idealogy (muslims and shia muslims) dont let them to fill the world by pleasure.
we believe we should do what God want.
and we(shia muslim) believe that a man who determined from side God should rule the world.

 

[metis]

...because zionist rule the world...

So we Jews, with a population of 14 million worldwide, supposedly control 7 billion people throughout the world? Really? Well, if this were to be true, what would that tell you about the intelligence of the non-Jewish world, including you Muslims?

 

[mohammadshiamuslim]

So we Jews, with a population of 14 million worldwide, supposedly control 7 billion people throughout the world? Really? Well, if this were to be true, what would that tell you about the intelligence of the non-Jewish world, including you Muslims?

no my brother.
zionist are muslim zionist,christian zionist and jew zionist.
we love jew people and my meaninig from zionist is not jews.
we have one religion.

 

[Jake1001]

no my brother.
zionist are muslim zionist,christian zionist and jew zionist.
we love jew people and my meaninig from zionist is not jews.
we have one religion.

So you are a MUSLIM ZIONIST!!!!

This is a new day in Jewish / Muslim relations!!! Let's have a pork sandwich to celebrate!!! Hehe!!!