Tolerant peaceful rational people?
13 pages of mostly ignoring the news in the OP
using deflection, grammar arguments & ad
hominems to distract from the very real fact
that Islam is often practiced with violence &
oppression.
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Iran sentences LGBTQ woman to death for spreading corruption on earth.
- Thread starter stevecanuck
- Start date
13 pages of mostly ignoring the news in the OP
using deflection, grammar arguments & ad
hominems to distract from the very real fact
that Islam is often practiced with violence &
oppression.
stevecanuck
Well-Known Member
That's obvious.
When Islamic regimes murder innocent people, I want to demonstrate that the religion itself forms the basis of their actions. What do you want? To ignore the truth?
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
Sure. We agree but that is the easy part. What should we replace with? Your version of tolerant peaceful rational people or mine? That is the problem that follows.
But you're not addressing grammar issues in the Koran!
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
No, I just point out when it happens regardless of religion or specific political ideology. And I don't limit it to cases like this.
Any version that's tolerant, peaceful, & rational
would be a vast improvement. I've no need to
overly specify this.
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
Well, yes. you do. I am currently reading a graduate level course on in part what you talk about and it turns out it is not that simple. But that is sociology and not science, so that is not rational, right?
Spirit of Light
Be who ever you want
Replace it with love and compassion, no matter if it is from the religious or non religious. Whst human beings would benefit from is to show love and compassion and not hate and voilence.
We are all the same. We are human beings.
Nope.
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
So then you know that your words are not that simple.
Simple person.
Simple words.
firedragon
Veteran Member
firedragon
Veteran Member
Nah. It's not relevant to the pseudo scholarship of this thread that I addressed.
. But thanks for the research. This news could be all true and probably is. It seems like these two women are targeted. If that is the case, it's a cheap and dirty thing to do.
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stevecanuck
Well-Known Member
stevecanuck
Well-Known Member
Nah. It's not relevant to the pseudo scholarship of this thread that I addressed.
But thanks for the research.
Why keep posting after you've completely run out of material?
firedragon
Veteran Member
Al Fasadhin Fil Ardha.
As you can see, this verse clearly tells you that death sentence is delivered only to a murderer, but hey, there is a phrase that says - Or who has not committed “corruption in the land” (Aw fasadhin fil ardhi). Thus we think that we can assign that to a person who does a prayer differently, or prays to another deity. Nope, this actually means yourself. What in the world can this “CORRUPTION IN THE LAND” mean? It’s very simple, the Quran itself defines it.
The Quran gives an explicit example for us to reflect upon. Us, the readers.
And in the city were nine ruffians who were causing “corruption in the land” (Yufsidhoona fil ardhi), and they were not reforming. They said: “Swear by God” to one another that we will attack him and his family at night, and we will then say to his supporters: “We did not witness who murdered his family, and we are being truthful” – Quran 27:48-49
Read that verse again and focus on the few words within quotations. These two verses have the phrase “Al Fasadhin Fil Ardha”, both "corruption in the land" of which the example is "murdering in the name of God". They say to one another that they “Swear by God” about attacking and killing a family at night. This is taken as committing corruption in the land, which ironically is what we are doing. Our own God, in our own scripture says that he schemes against us.
And they schemed a scheme and we schemed a scheme, while they did not notice. – Quran 27:50
There’s More
Check the beginning of the Quran, Chapter 2:11. “Do not cause corruption in the land” (La thufsidhu fil ardha”. If you read the surrounding verses it goes like this
• There are people who claim to believe in God (Allah = Al-Ilah or The God)
• They seek to deceive God and those who believe
• They have a disease in their hearts
• When they are told not to cause “corruption in the land” they say “Nope, we have come as REFORMERS”
• But actually they are the corruptors.
• When they meet a believer they say we believe, but inside their hearts they do not.
• Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return.
Who is God talking about? It cannot be someone who claims to be a non-believer as said by most.
Same Surah, Chapter 2:11 says that it is those who has already pledged their allegiance to God, believers, who will cause corruption in the land (Yufsidhuna Fil Ardhi). If you read further you will see
“Among the people is he whose talk about worldly life impresses you, and he holds Allah witness to what is in his heart, though he is the staunchest of enemies. And if he were to wield authority, he would try to cause corruption in the land, and to ruin the crop and the stock, and Allah does not like corruption. – Quran 2:204-205
The corrupter's life impresses you. I am sure you cant put a Christian or a different sect into this category. They don’t impress you. It is your own who can impress you, but they are the enemy. And when he has power he will cause “corruption in the land” (Fil Ardhi liyufsidha fiha). Read the above verse again.
It is not those who call themselves Christian, Jew, Athiest or polytheist who are deemed here as against God, its those who pledge alliance with God, as in claim to be believers who fall into this category. Generally the reader if he is a Muslim he thinks, “Oh this is talking about others”, if he is a Christian he thinks “Oh this is about me”, Islam is a murderous religion.
Read as a reader, as in first person. In terms of media science It is "one to one communication".
Going back to verses 27:48 and 49 it will clearly show you that those who cause corruption in the land are
• those who claim or pretend to believe,
• they swear by God (Allah) and murder people.
Their punishment is death.
And in the city were nine ruffians who were causing “corruption in the land” (Yufsidhoona fil ardhi), and they were not reforming. They said: “Swear by God” to one another that we will attack him and his family at night, and we will then say to his supporters: “We did not witness who murdered his family, and we are being truthful”
God has a nice parable to the “Corruptors of the land”. Read in the 2nd Surah of the Quran.
2:26 God does not shy away from putting forth the example of a mosquito, or anything above it. As for those who believe, they know that it is the truth from their Lord. As for the rejecters, they say: “What does God intend with this example?” He strays many by it, and He guides many by it; but He only strays by it the wicked.
2:27 The ones who break the pledge to God after making its covenant, and they sever what God had ordered to be delivered, and they make corruption on the earth (Yufsidhuna Fil Ardha); these are the losers.
The parable of the mosquito or the Gnat is for those who cause corruption in the land. Wonder what the significance of that is!
• They suck blood
• Mosquitos are recognized as the deadliest creatures in the world. The anopheles kills approximately 1 million human beings a year.
Those who swear by God (Kalu thaka samu biullah) and without reforming murder people. They are the corruptors of the land. They are the ones who are defined in the verses. They pledge their will to God first, claim to be believers, you will be impressed by them, but when they wield power they corrupt and murder. This is their personality. Put the cap if it fits, or think for yourself who fits the cap. Most of all, read the book as if you are reading it for yourself. And especially if you are a person who claims to believe in the Quran (Reading), believes it is the Furqan (the criterion), then follow through with it. Shun those who causes corruption in the land, because they are doing in the name of God and Messenger.
If you read through the Quran carefully you will see that its clearly saying that it is corrupt individuals that commit Al Fasadhin FIl Ardha. People will even use the name of God, mention God to commit their murders. Thats because they are corrupt inside. Which is a clear indication that the motivation of the leaders as the Quran says “Yujibuka Kawluhoo”, that means “the speech of the leader impresses you”. This leader who is “Aladdhu Hisaami” or the the “staunchest enemy” (Quran 2:204) is the man who is taking you away from reality. He will use any tool at his disposal. Any belief system. Any kind of pain. The worst of them are the ones who use God himself as his tool. Kaaloo, thakaa, Samoa biullah. Death penalty to them.
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firedragon
Veteran Member
I am not addressing "historical exegesis". I don't even know what you mean by that.
If you are concerned about how Muslims today interpret it, let me tell you. No problem. It's practically the same as any exegete in history.
This "corruption in the land" is used by Iran to refer to those who undermine their governance. Apparently. There is nothing like that in the Qur'an. Zilch. It's not an interpretation Iran is using, it's their own invention of a sentence. that they use as part of their dictatorship.
It could be that they interpret the Quran for this. But so far I have not seen the Qur'anic exegesis "done by Iran" anywhere. Yet. Only then I can assess how they are doing this assessment. All I have seen so far is news that mentions a sentence. But if someone could find a direct source where Iran does this exegesis to suit their needs, I can maybe give you some light on it.
Lets see it if anyone could find direct source on their basis for law. Thanks.
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Even if it is not in keeping with exegetes in history or elsewhere today, the Iranian regime's mobilisation of the phrase sure looks like interpretation of the Quran to me. I don't think they have just made this phrase up. After all it bears a striking resemblance to the Quranic phrase. And that severely impacts people like me in Iran today.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Why?
Please quote the direct source Iran has used and lets see if what you say is true. It could be.
stevecanuck
Well-Known Member
Whoa! You could put someone's eye out when you move the goalposts like that without warning. You spent 13 pages denying that the phrase in 5:33 meant that "corruption in the land" was used to justify the death penalty, and now you're saying it's only meant for murderers. You can always tell a person who's making up excuses on the fly.