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Iraq was to be the first of seven country in five years

Smoke

Done here.
I think everyone and their dog is able to see that is a textbook appeal to authority. Sorry you aren't able to understand it. I can't help you get smarter.
Can you help yourself?

Eli said:
it's Wesley Clark. I would take his claims as legit.

And you replied:
Here is a textbook example of the appeal to authority fallacy.

There are several things wrong with this.

First, Eli was reporting his opinion -- that is, he considers Wesley Clark a credible witness. There was no argument that if Wesley Clark said it, it follows that it's true. Since Eli was just reporting his own opinion, any talk of logical fallacies is irrelevant. He didn't state why he considers Wesley credible, and that might have been an appropriate avenue to pursue; alternately, it would be relevant to discuss why you don't consider Wesley credible. To pretend that Eli has committed a logical fallacy in reporting his own opinion of Wesley's credibility is irrelevant at best.

Second, appeal to authority is not necessarily fallacious. Appeal to authority is logical when the authority appealed to is an authority on the subject, and is fallacious only when appeal is made to one who is not in fact an authority. Wesley Clark is obviously an authority on the subject of his own private conversations. Thus, even if Eli had appealed to Wesley as an authority, he would still not be guilty of fallacious appeal to authority.

Third, the real question is whether Wesley Clark is a credible reporter of his own private conversations. That question can't be resolved, or even addressed, by false and distracting claims about logical fallacies.

Fourth, there is indeed a textbook case of fallacious reasoning on this thread: that which is usually called a red herring. However, Eli isn't the one who's guilty of it. :D

Is there any interest in discussing the topic of the thread?
 

Comprehend

Res Ipsa Loquitur
Can you help yourself?

Eli said:


And you replied:


There are several things wrong with this.

First, Eli was reporting his opinion -- that is, he considers Wesley Clark a credible witness. There was no argument that if Wesley Clark said it, it follows that it's true. Since Eli was just reporting his own opinion, any talk of logical fallacies is irrelevant. He didn't state why he considers Wesley credible, and that might have been an appropriate avenue to pursue; alternately, it would be relevant to discuss why you don't consider Wesley credible. To pretend that Eli has committed a logical fallacy in reporting his own opinion of Wesley's credibility is irrelevant at best.

Second, appeal to authority is not necessarily fallacious. Appeal to authority is logical when the authority appealed to is an authority on the subject, and is fallacious only when appeal is made to one who is not in fact an authority. Wesley Clark is obviously an authority on the subject of his own private conversations. Thus, even if Eli had appealed to Wesley as an authority, he would still not be guilty of fallacious appeal to authority.

Third, the real question is whether Wesley Clark is a credible reporter of his own private conversations. That question can't be resolved, or even addressed, by false and distracting claims about logical fallacies.

Fourth, there is indeed a textbook case of fallacious reasoning on this thread: that which is usually called a red herring. However, Eli isn't the one who's guilty of it. :D

Is there any interest in discussing the topic of the thread?

great googily...

Now you need to go read the link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority


(pay special attention to this part:

wiki said:
Examples of appeals to authority
  • Referring to the philosophical beliefs of Aristotle. "If Aristotle said it was so, it is so."
  • Referring to the philosophical beliefs of Jesus, Muhammad, or any other religious figure. "If (religious figure) said it was so, it is so." However, such an appeal may be based upon the belief that the speaker in question is holy and, by extension, inerrant.
  • Referring to a sacred text. "If (the text) said it was so, it is so." Like in the previous example, such an appeal may be based upon the belief that the sacred text in question is inerrant.
  • Referring to scientific research published in a peer-reviewed journal. "Science (in the form of an article in a prestigious journal) says X, therefore X is so."
  • Referring to what one is told by one's teacher and/or parent. "My teacher said so, therefore it must be so."
  • Believing something because it is attributed to an honored profession, as in "This doctor recommends (brand-name) aspirin" or "Bankers recommend that people have six months' wages in a savings account".
  • Something must be true because a war hero says it.
  • Something must be true because it is in the news.

now take another look at the statement:
mcteeth said:
I just see no reasons for Wesley Clark to lie, especially since he's a high-ranking general.



Honestly.... I feel like I am hanging out with a bunch of kids....:cover:
 

Smoke

Done here.
Honestly.... I feel like I am hanging out with a bunch of kids....:cover:
Well, honestly, if you can't tell the difference between "I don't see any reason for Wesley Clark to lie" and "Something must be true because a war hero said it," you probably should hang out with kids, because nobody over twelve is likely to be taken in by your incorrect understanding of what a logical fallacy is.

Again, Eli has never said that whatever Wesley Clark says is necessarily true, or even that whatever Wesley Clark says about the American military is necessarily true. You are attacking a claim that has not been made. Eli considers Wesley Clark a credible reporter of Wesley Clark's own private conversations. He may or may not be wrong about that, but his stated opinion is not a logical fallacy. You seem to have trouble grasping the difference.

For the record, I've been studying logic since before you were born, and I'm not in need of Wikipedia to teach me about logic. I'm not always logical, but I do know a thing or two about the subject. Your appeal to authority is duly noted. However, I can't help noticing that you cut your quote off before this bit:

Keep in mind that the fact that an argument is an appeal to authority doesn't make its conclusion untrue, nor does it make it unreasonable to believe the argument.
Why are you working so hard to keep the thread off-topic?

Wesley Clark's claims are credible. They're credible in part because he's actually contributed very little new information, and because the conversations he recalls are entirely consistent with what we already know. The conversations he reports are entirely consistent with things Wolfowitz, Cheney and Rumsfeld have said publicly over the last decade. We already know that the foreign policy objectives of PNAC became the foreign policy of the Bush administration; hardly surprising considering Bush packed his administration with PNAC members. We already know that Wolfowitz, Cheney and Rumsfeld advocated invading Iraq at least five years before we actually did. We know that similar discussions about Syria and Iran were on the table even before 9-11. The thing that makes Wesley's story notable is that we have yet another instance of somebody who was in this mess up to his eyebrows confirming what we already know from other sources.

The only new information Wesley brings to the table is his claim about the intent to impose "regime change" on Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, and Sudan. In view of what we already know about the Bush administration's ideology, goals, and methods, that claim is not only credible, it's practically a foregone conclusion.
 

Comprehend

Res Ipsa Loquitur
Well, honestly, if you can't tell the difference between "I don't see any reason for Wesley Clark to lie" and "Something must be true because a war hero said it," you probably should hang out with kids, because nobody over twelve is likely to be taken in by your incorrect understanding of what a logical fallacy is.

funny how you put that in quotes but that isn't what he said... :sarcastic

like I said, I can't help it if you don't understand. His statement is an obvious appeal to authority.

It makes no difference that it is his opinion. It is just as much a logical fallacy to say "It is my opinion that ______ is telling the truth because he is a ________. "


Again, Eli has never said that whatever Wesley Clark says is necessarily true, or even that whatever Wesley Clark says about the American military is necessarily true. You are attacking a claim that has not been made. Eli considers Wesley Clark a credible reporter of Wesley Clark's own private conversations. He may or may not be wrong about that, but his stated opinion is not a logical fallacy. You seem to have trouble grasping the difference.

And again, you don't understand what the problem with the statement is. The problem is that Eli (why are we using his real name here?) said that wesley clark should be believed because he is 1. wesley clark and 2. a general. That is what an appeal to authority is. You seem to be having trouble grasping the obvious.

For the record, I've been studying logic since before you were born, and I'm not in need of Wikipedia to teach me about logic. I'm not always logical, but I do know a thing or two about the subject.

Your understanding here indicates different. :p

Your appeal to authority is duly noted. However, I can't help noticing that you cut your quote off before this bit:

I also didn't include a bunch above it. :shrug:

It isn't relevant because I am not arguing that Clark's statement is false.... duh. I know the fact that he used a logical fallacy does not make the statement automatically false but all I am arguing is that he used a logical fallacy.

I took one small section to try to help you see what an appeal to authority looks like. This just demonstrates how little you have paid attention to my argument. I haven't once said that Clark was not telling the truth. If you are going to argue with me, could you at least remember what I have said?


I couldn't care less whether what clark said is true or not. I was just pointing out that Eli's reason for why he should be believed was an OBVIOUS appeal to authority. I am frankly shocked that there are people who have trouble seeing it.

Why are you working so hard to keep the thread off-topic?

I'm not. Why are you working so hard denying the obvious?


Wesley Clark's claims are credible. They're credible in part because he's actually contributed very little new information, and because the conversations he recalls are entirely consistent with what we already know. The conversations he reports are entirely consistent with things Wolfowitz, Cheney and Rumsfeld have said publicly over the last decade. We already know that the foreign policy objectives of PNAC became the foreign policy of the Bush administration; hardly surprising considering Bush packed his administration with PNAC members. We already know that Wolfowitz, Cheney and Rumsfeld advocated invading Iraq at least five years before we actually did. We know that similar discussions about Syria and Iran were on the table even before 9-11. The thing that makes Wesley's story notable is that we have yet another instance of somebody who was in this mess up to his eyebrows confirming what we already know from other sources.

The only new information Wesley brings to the table is his claim about the intent to impose "regime change" on Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, and Sudan. In view of what we already know about the Bush administration's ideology, goals, and methods, that claim is not only credible, it's practically a foregone conclusion.

Like I said, I haven't argued about whether the statement is true or not. :slap:
 

Smoke

Done here.
funny how you put that in quotes but that isn't what he said... :sarcastic
It wasn't intended to be a direct quote of Eli; it was intended to set one statement off from the other. However, it's close enough to what he said. There's no material difference between "I don't see any reason for Wesley Clark to lie" and "I just see no reasons for Wesley Clark to lie."

It makes no difference that it is his opinion. It is just as much a logical fallacy to say "It is my opinion that ______ is telling the truth because he is a ________. "
No, it isn't. It isn't even a logical fallacy to say that I believe in Santa Claus because my mommy told me so. The statement, "It is my opinion that ... " is not susceptible to logical refutation.

And again, you don't understand what the problem with the statement is. The problem is that Eli (why are we using his real name here?) said that wesley clark should be believed because he is 1. wesley clark and 2. a general. That is what an appeal to authority is. You seem to be having trouble grasping the obvious.
I'm using Eli's real name because it's too much trouble to type McTeethinator. I don't know why you're using it. And I'm afraid I'm not going to waste anymore time explaining your error here; to do so would only continue to derail the thread.

I couldn't care less whether what clark said is true or not.
That's apparent.

I was just pointing out that Eli's reason for why he should be believed was an OBVIOUS appeal to authority. I am frankly shocked that there are people who have trouble seeing it.
Frankly, I'm shocked that you're clinging to your obvious error with such tenacity. So I guess it's a shocking day all around.

Like I said, I haven't argued about whether the statement is true or not. :slap:
And you apparently have no intention of doing so. Maybe you should start a thread about logic, and see if somebody with more patience than I is willing to help you understand it better.

Is there anybody interested in discussing the actual topic of the thread?
 

Comprehend

Res Ipsa Loquitur
It wasn't intended to be a direct quote of Eli; it was intended to set one statement off from the other. However, it's close enough to what he said. There's no material difference between "I don't see any reason for Wesley Clark to lie" and "I just see no reasons for Wesley Clark to lie."

That isn't what he said either.

Just to refresh your memory:

mcteeth said:
"it's Wesley Clark. I would take his claims as legit."

"I just see no reasons for Wesley Clark to lie, especially since he's a high-ranking general."

No, it isn't. It isn't even a logical fallacy to say that I believe in Santa Claus because my mommy told me so. The statement, "It is my opinion that ... " is not susceptible to logical refutation.

Yes it is.

I'm using Eli's real name because it's too much trouble to type McTeethinator. I don't know why you're using it. And I'm afraid I'm not going to waste anymore time explaining your error here; to do so would only continue to derail the thread.

That's too bad, you were doing such a great job...

That's apparent.

Then why do you keep trying to argue like I did?

Frankly, I'm shocked that you're clinging to your obvious error with such tenacity. So I guess it's a shocking day all around.

I didn't make the error.

And you apparently have no intention of doing so. Maybe you should start a thread about logic, and see if somebody with more patience than I is willing to help you understand it better.

tee hee.

I got a perfect score on the logic section of the LSAT (actually, I got a perfect score on all but one section). How'd you do? :cool:
 

Smoke

Done here.
I got a perfect score on the logic section of the LSAT (actually, I got a perfect score on all but one section). How'd you do? :cool:
Good Lord, I don't know. I don't even know what my most recent score on the MAT was, and that was years more recent. However, all your appeal to (your own) authority shows is that it's possible to get a perfect score on a standardized test while having a seriously deficient grasp of logic.
 

Comprehend

Res Ipsa Loquitur
Good Lord, I don't know. I don't even know what my most recent score on the MAT was, and that was years more recent. However, all your appeal to (your own) authority shows is that it's possible to get a perfect score on a standardized test while having a seriously deficient grasp of logic.

It definitely shows something...;)
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
The logic discussion aside I have some quibbles regarding the purity of Wesley Clark's testimony of the events for several reasons.

*Puts on Tom Clancey hat*

Seven countries in five years" | Salon
Quote:
While the Bush White House promotes the possibility of armed conflict with Iran, a tantalizing passage in Wesley Clark's new memoir suggests that another war is part of a long-planned Department of Defense strategy that anticipated "regime change" by force in no fewer than seven Mideast states. Critics of the war have often voiced suspicions of such imperial schemes, but this is the first time that a high-ranking former military officer has claimed to know that such plans existed.
The existence of that classified memo would certainly cast more dubious light not only on the original decision to invade Iraq because of Iran.
In "A Time to Lead: For Duty, Honor and Country," published by Palgrave Macmillan last month, the former four-star general recalls two visits to the Pentagon following the terrorist attacks of September 2001.

Wesley Clark: I said, "Are we still going to war with Iraq?" And he said, "Oh, it's worse than that." He reached over on his desk. He picked up a piece of paper. And he said, "I just got this down from upstairs" -- meaning the Secretary of Defense's office -- "today."

And he said, "This is a memo that describes how we're going to take out seven countries in five years, starting with Iraq, and then Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and, finishing off, Iran." I said, "Is it classified?" He said, "Yes, sir."
The irony!


1. Retired ex-military officials who write books tend to do so to make money. It is a sad, but true, statement on our times.
2. Clark is a Democrat and has a vested interest in making the Bush administration/Republican's look bad.
3. It is unseemly to think that a former decorated soldier would break confidentiality to flog his "memoirs". It does not seem reasonable that he did not express deep concerns over the alleged plan at the time. It also begs credulity that he would flout national security regulations while his country is at war by releasing highly classified data. (Side note: He would be perfectly aware of the simply fact that such classified data could not be commented on by the sitting administration as it is likely still highly classified.) He has, in effect, broken his oath as a ranking soldier. Loose lips sink ships.
4. The omission of Afghanistan is especially telling. Perhaps Wesley cannot count.
5. It also is not credible to consider that the US would move against the governments of Lebanon, Libya, Syria and Iran. Likewise Somalia and the Sudan are relatively "small potatoes". Several of these countries have strong governments and it would be utter idiocy to think that they could be "taken out" as part of a five year plan.
6. Clark asks, "Is it classified?" This is a very strange comment for him to make as virtually ALL discussions at his level would be classified in one way or another.
7. Clark does NOT say that he personally saw the note and read it for himself, but rather he got it second hand.
8. Likewise, I could just be showing my ignorance, but why would a "superior" officer refer to Wesley Clark as "sir" by saying "Yes, sir." You would think that the speaker would give the affirmative and let it drop. Odd stuff, this is.

In light of these small quibbles, and noting that Wesley Clark has not said a word about it prior to writing a book he will profit from, I would be inclined to take this EX-General’s words with a grain of salt, especially so, since the Presidential primaries are looming on the horizon.

It is compelling fiction, however. In essence, I don't see any logic whatsoever to the statements as supplied. Are we to assume that while in uniform Mr. Clark was in support of these alleged goals? Did he become a broken record expressing his reluctance to accept such a game plan of brinksmanship?

He didn't as far as I recall.
 

Smoke

Done here.
Ymir, are you laboring under the impression that Bush administration policies tend to be rational? We're talking about the people who thought they could wrap things up in Iraq in six weeks.

Like I said, Wesley Clark actually brings very little new information to the table. Most of what he says he heard is stuff we already know from other sources.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Ymir, are you laboring under the impression that Bush administration policies tend to be rational? We're talking about the people who thought they could wrap things up in Iraq in six weeks.

Like I said, Wesley Clark actually brings very little new information to the table. Most of what he says he heard is stuff we already know from other sources.
Um. I'm not talking about the Bush Administration, I'm talking about Mr. Clark. OK, I'll bite. What other sources confirm this reading of events?
 

Smoke

Done here.
Um. I'm not talking about the Bush Administration, I'm talking about Mr. Clark. OK, I'll bite. What other sources confirm this reading of events?
I was responding to your assertion that "It also is not credible to consider that the US would move against the governments of Lebanon, Libya, Syria and Iran." Actually, it's extremely credible. You have to remember that PNAC (of which Cheney, Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz, as well as Scooter Libby and John Bolton, were all members) has been calling for aggressive use of our military in pre-emptive wars since the 1990s. Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Libby, and Jeb Bush were among the signers of PNAC's "Statement of Principles" in 1997. Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz both signed a PNAC letter to President Clinton demanding the overthrow of Saddam Hussein in January 1998. They both signed a letter to Trent Lott and Newt Gingrich, also demanding the overthrow of Saddam, in May 1998. Wolfowitz gave a speech in September 1998 demanding Saddam's overthrow. If there is anything PNAC was focused on, it was the invasion of Iraq. However, it was never just Iraq. PNAC has always been eager to impose American hegemony on the whole world, and they've never made any secret of it. When Bush came to power, he packed his administration with members of PNAC. Here are a couple excerpts from articles explaining more:

On 20 September 2001, PNAC demanded:
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]But even if evidence does not link Iraq directly to the attack, any strategy aiming at the eradication of terrorism and its sponsors must include a determined effort to remove Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq. Failure to undertake such an effort will constitute an early and perhaps decisive surrender in the war on international terrorism. The United States must therefore provide full military and financial support to the Iraqi opposition. American military force should be used to provide a “safe zone” in Iraq from which the opposition can operate. And American forces must be prepared to back up our commitment to the Iraqi opposition by all necessary means. ...

[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]We believe the administration should demand that Iran and Syria immediately cease all military, financial, and political support for Hezbollah and its operations. Should Iran and Syria refuse to comply, the administration should consider appropriate measures of retaliation against these known state sponsors of terrorism.[/FONT]
Patrick J. Buchanan wrote this in The American Conservative on 24 March 2003:
When the Cold War ended, these neoconservatives began casting about for a new crusade to give meaning to their lives. On Sept. 11, their time came. They seized on that horrific atrocity to steer America’s rage into all-out war to destroy their despised enemies, the Arab and Islamic “rogue states” that have resisted U.S. hegemony and loathe Israel.
The War Party’s plan, however, had been in preparation far in advance of 9/11. And when President Bush, after defeating the Taliban, was looking for a new front in the war on terror, they put their precooked meal in front of him. Bush dug into it.

Before introducing the script-writers of America’s future wars, consider the rapid and synchronized reaction of the neocons to what happened after that fateful day.

On Sept. 12, Americans were still in shock when Bill Bennett told CNN that we were in “a struggle between good and evil,” that the Congress must declare war on “militant Islam,” and that “overwhelming force” must be used. Bennett cited Lebanon, Libya, Syria, Iraq, Iran, and China as targets for attack. Not, however, Afghanistan, the sanctuary of Osama’s terrorists. How did Bennett know which nations must be smashed before he had any idea who attacked us?

The Wall Street Journal immediately offered up a specific target list, calling for U.S. air strikes on “terrorist camps in Syria, Sudan, Libya, and Algeria, and perhaps even in parts of Egypt.” Yet, not one of Bennett’s six countries, nor one of these five, had anything to do with 9/11.

On Sept. 15, according to Bob Woodward’s Bush at War, “Paul Wolfowitz put forth military arguments to justify a U.S. attack on Iraq rather than Afghanistan.” Why Iraq? Because, Wolfowitz argued in the War Cabinet, while “attacking Afghanistan would be uncertain … Iraq was a brittle oppressive regime that might break easily. It was doable.” ...

Ledeen, however, is less frivolous. In The War Against the Terror Masters, he identifies the exact regimes America must destroy:
First and foremost, we must bring down the terror regimes, beginning with the Big Three: Iran, Iraq, and Syria. And then we have to come to grips with Saudi Arabia. … Once the tyrants in Iran, Iraq, Syria, and Saudi Arabia have been brought down, we will remain engaged. …We have to ensure the fulfillment of the democratic revolution. … Stability is an unworthy American mission, and a misleading concept to boot. We do not want stability in Iran, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, and even Saudi Arabia; we want things to change. The real issue is not whether, but how to destabilize. ...
Norman Podhoretz in Commentary even outdid Kristol’s Standard, rhapsodizing that we should embrace a war of civilizations, as it is George W. Bush’s mission “to fight World War IV—the war against militant Islam.” By his count, the regimes that richly deserve to be overthrown are not confined to the three singled-out members of the axis of evil (Iraq, Iran, North Korea). At a minimum, the axis should extend to Syria and Lebanon and Libya, as well as ‘“friends” of America like the Saudi royal family and Egypt’s Hosni Mubarak, along with the Palestinian Authority. Bush must reject the “timorous counsels” of the “incorrigibly cautious Colin Powell,” wrote Podhoretz, and “find the stomach to impose a new political culture on the defeated” Islamic world. ...

  • A list of the Middle East regimes that Podhoretz, Bennett, Ledeen, Netanyahu, and the Wall Street Journal regard as targets for destruction thus includes Algeria, Libya, Egypt, Sudan, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Hezbollah, Hamas, the Palestinian Authority, and “militant Islam.” ...

    In 1992, a startling document was leaked from the office of Paul Wolfowitz at the Pentagon. Barton Gellman of the Washington Post called it a “classified blueprint intended to help ‘set the nation’s direction for the next century.’” The Wolfowitz Memo called for a permanent U.S. military presence on six continents to deter all “potential competitors from even aspiring to a larger regional or global role.” Containment, the victorious strategy of the Cold War, was to give way to an ambitious new strategy designed to “establish and protect a new order.”
William Arkin wrote the following in the Washington Post on 7 November 2005:
The January 2002 Nuclear Posture Review levied requirements on the military to conduct planning for potential use of nuclear weapons against Russia, China, Iran, Iraq, Libya, Syria, and North Korea.
On April 1, 2002, almost a full year before the invasion of Iraq, Secretary Rumsfeld accused Iran, Iraq and Syria of “inspiring and financing a culture of political murder and suicide bombing.”

On May 6, 2002, in a speech to the Heritage Foundation entitled “Beyond the Axis of Evil,” Under Secretary of State John Bolton identified Libya, Syria and Cuba as countries that were attempting to procure weapons of mass destruction. “States that renounce terror and abandon WMD can become part of our effort. But those that do not can expect to become our targets,” he said.​
 

mcteethinator

Idiosyncratic Muslim
Something must be true because a war hero says it.

Nope. I said, since he's a high-ranking general, it makes sense he would know that information. And as MidnightBlue said, I think Wesley Clark is authoritive on his own private conversations.

It's more like going

"That statement about the Battle of Normandy must be true because a war hero from the Battle of Normandy said it".
 

Comprehend

Res Ipsa Loquitur
Nope. I said, since he's a high-ranking general, it makes sense he would know that information. And as MidnightBlue said, I think Wesley Clark is authoritive on his own private conversations.

No. You didn't say that it makes sense he would know the information. You were talking about if he was lying, not if he was privy to the information. ;)

You said this:

mcchangehisownquoteinator said:
"I just see no reasons for Wesley Clark to lie, especially since he's a high-ranking general."

Nice try though.:cool:
 

mcteethinator

Idiosyncratic Muslim
No. You didn't say that it makes sense he would know the information. You were talking about if he was lying, not if he was privy to the information. ;)

You said this:



Nice try though.:cool:

I think I'm more authoritive on what I was meaning to say, despite the way that I worded it.

Is that a fallacy too?
 
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