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Irish abortion referendum

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
I have nothing else to add. As Nelson said at the Battle of Copenhagen when he lifted the telescope to his blind eye, "I really do not see..." It's not my job to make you see what you don't want to. In any case, I wasn't ever talking about professional prostitutes. Presumably they know how to prevent themselves becoming pregnant...

It is your job to substantiate your wild assertions. We do want to see, which is why we request evidence, but unfortunately you've failed to adequately provide any.
Also, you say you weren't talking about "professional prostitutes", then tell us just what kind of "prostitutes" you were talking about since you were the one who used the term.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
My point is this:
Feticide rights are more about the fathers than the mothers. If men didn't make babies that they don't want, and walk away, women would be less likely to abort their children.
Tom

If people were more selective with who they have sex with the problem would also be reduced.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
If people were more selective with who they have sex with the problem would also be reduced.
And if supposed "pro-life" people supported birth control for everyone it could also be reduced. There are many ways to reduce abortion rates yet I see too many on the pro-life side opposing those changes.
 

GoodbyeDave

Well-Known Member
The fact that early abortion was permitted by the Church for centuries is one that the present hierarchy should honestly face, but that's surely not the real point. If abortion is un-Christian, then churches obviously have both the right and the duty to tell their members so. But what they do not have is the right to enforce their teaching on non-Christians.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
The Catechism of the Council of Trent (1566), also dismisses the idea that the soul is infused at conception (i.e. that personhood is conferred upon fertilization) and actually uses the supernatural nature of Jesus's conception to clarify this:

THE CATECHISM OF TRENT: The Creed - Article III


"What surpasses the order of nature and human comprehension is, that as soon as the Blessed Virgin assented to the announcement of the Angel in these words, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it done unto me according to thy word, the most sacred body of Christ was immediately formed, and to it was united a rational soul enjoying the use of reason; and thus in the same instant of time He was perfect God and perfect man.

That this was the astonishing and admirable work of the Holy Ghost cannot be doubted; for according to the order of nature the rational soul is united to the body only after a certain lapse of time."


And that was a statement of an ecumenical council, just like the 14th century council of Vienne that I mentioned earlier. It blithely and unquestioningly assumes the distinction between an "unensouled" fetus at conception and an "ensouled" fetus after a 'certain lapse of time'.

Jesus was thought to have been the only human animated at conception courtesy of a miracle of the Holy Spirit, whereas everyone else started out as unensouled fetal tissue until a certain lapse of time in which the fetus became 'quickened' in the womb (capable of sensation and movement).

The Church didn't define the length of the time lapse from conception, just that there was one. Generally, however, the quickening was long thought by theologians to occur at the time the woman first felt movement in her womb. If talking about specific time periods, it thus ranged from 40 - 80 days after conception but there was no completely agreed definition.

That was simply how the Catholic Church saw it in those days.

Ironically, the Irish government plans to permit abortion on demand within the first trimester which begins on the first day of a woman's last period and lasts until the end of week 12, and only in exceptional circumstances thereafter (I believe). An early abortion is the termination of a pregnancy during the first trimester. That's barely over 80 days, so according to the earlier interpretation the fetus would likely not yet be ensouled.

Even today though, the Church does not teach that we can be sure that the embryo is animated at the point of conception. The stance actually goes that probabilism may not be used where human life may be at stake, thus the 1992 Catholic Catechism notes that the embryo must be treated from conception "tamquam, "as if" a human person". That's an important qualifier. It further states that: "the church has not determined officially when human life [i.e. personhood] actually begins" and respect for life at all stages, even potential life, is generally the context of church documents.

Consider this Vatican document:

(Donum Vitae 1987)

This Congregation [for the Doctrine of the Faith] is aware of the current debates concerning the beginning of human life, concerning the individuality of the human being and concerning the identity of the human person...

Certainly no experimental datum can be in itself sufficient to bring us to the recognition of a spiritual soul...The Magisterium has not expressly committed itself to an affirmation of a philosophical nature, but it constantly reaffirms the moral condemnation of any kind of procured abortion.

So it refrains from directly affirming the moment of ensoulement and leaves it open that the earlier, traditional Thomist understanding could still be the correct one. But a lot of Catholics don't realize this.
 
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Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
In the tiny archipelago of Malta, abortion is still illegal.
Each year many Maltese women come to Italy to get an abortion.


I'm speechless...o_O

ootfyw6ytvq9blys3dp0.jpg
 
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Kangaroo Feathers

Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
If people were more selective with who they have sex with the problem would also be reduced.
And if, as the saying goes, a frog had wings...

We can "if" each other all day long and achieve nothing. When discussing human nature and behavior, "if" doesn't matter, what's important is "is".
 

Kangaroo Feathers

Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
The fact that early abortion was permitted by the Church for centuries is one that the present hierarchy should honestly face, but that's surely not the real point. If abortion is un-Christian, then churches obviously have both the right and the duty to tell their members so. But what they do not have is the right to enforce their teaching on non-Christians.
Or even Christians who hold different beliefs on the matter.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
And if, as the saying goes, a frog had wings...

We can "if" each other all day long and achieve nothing. When discussing human nature and behavior, "if" doesn't matter, what's important is "is".

If is still possible. Ignoring it is why there are so many broken families. Beside abortion was an if at one time as well.
 
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