Irish Woman Dies When Denied Abortion

[Drolefille]

Give me some time to look it over. It's not considered a authoritative source but it doesn't mean it's wrong. I gotta head out. Think I'm gonna keep this between us only.

Seriously.

I provided your sources when you couldn't go look for yourself...And you don't even have the decency to acknowledge you were wrong? About your own religious doctrine?

Take your ball and go back to the DIR if you can't handle it in the real world.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Give me some time to look it over. It's not considered a authoritative source but it doesn't mean it's wrong. I gotta head out. Think I'm gonna keep this between us only.

I'm not saying that you need to accept the story as an infallible teaching, but I would hope that you'd acknowledge that the Catholic News Service probably wouldn't try to slant the story to smear the Catholic Church.

 

[Mister_T]

***MOD POST***

Folks, let's turn down the heat and the personal comments in here.

Thanks!
​

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Ah ok, I see what you mean. However, what I'm talking about protects choice in a limited setting (to save the life of the mother).

Good point. For the record, so does Irish law. Personally, even if the mother's life is not in danger, I don't see why a woman should go through involuntary pain and agony when doctors already know miscarriage or fetal death is inevitable.

If hypothetically I am ever on life-support, and doctors know I am going to die, and for some reason operating the equipment requires putting my wife in pain ... by all means, pull the plug. It's the right thing to do.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I think what you are missing is that she could have been saved without having directly terminated the fetus. The fetus would have died naturally as it does in many miscarriages.

That's what they were doing. Effectively, they were waiting for the fetus to die naturally. The problem is that by the time this happened, it was too late to save the woman.

 

[Storm]

I think what you are missing is that she could have been saved without having directly terminated the fetus. The fetus would have died naturally as it does in many miscarriages.

And how could that have been done? Be specific.

 

[Drolefille]

And how could that have been done? Be specific.

May you have better luck than I.

 

[sandandfoam]

The way the discussion of this tragedy has been playing out over the airwaves here we're led to believe that terminating the pregnancy would not have been contrary to Irish law.

This leaves the huge question - why was it not terminated - I've been listening to the commentary and I just don't get it.
Apparently the investigation is going to take 3 months - I don't get that either.

 

[Drolefille]

The way the discussion of this tragedy has been playing out over the airwaves here we're led to believe that terminating the pregnancy would not have been contrary to Irish law.

This leaves the huge question - why was it not terminated - I've been listening to the commentary and I just don't get it.
Apparently the investigation is going to take 3 months - I don't get that either.

Are you hearing the same concern about the lack of clarity in the Irish Law?

I'm hoping the BBC podcasts I listen to cover it, they do a good amount with Ireland normally especially related to religion.

 

[Draka]

The way the discussion of this tragedy has been playing out over the airwaves here we're led to believe that terminating the pregnancy would not have been contrary to Irish law.

This leaves the huge question - why was it not terminated - I've been listening to the commentary and I just don't get it.
Apparently the investigation is going to take 3 months - I don't get that either.

3 months? Why on earth should it take 3 months for them to figure out that someone screwed up?

 

[Drolefille]

3 months? Why on earth should it take 3 months for them to figure out that someone screwed up?

An article on the inquiry:

The Health Service Executive's national incident management team has confirmed it is investigating the 31-year-old dentist's death last month.
In a statement, the HSE said it was in the process of appointing an independent, external report in obstetrics and gynaecology to join its inquiry team.

Halappanavar's death has prompted calls for the current Fine Gael-Labour coalition to legislate on abortion based on a 1992 ruling that terminations could be permitted in Irish hospitals if there was a "real and substantive" risk to the life of the mother. Irish governments over the last 20 years have ignored demands that they lay down specific guidelines on abortion for doctors and medical teams.
The Irish cabinet is due to discuss an expert report on abortion which centres on a European court of human rights ruling last year that found in favour of three women who claimed the abortion ban was a breach of their human rights.

Basically 20 years ago they ruled that terminations could be legal if there's a real risk to the life of the mother but it was NEVER legislated so doctors afraid of prosecution. There's also the last bit where the Euro court ruled that their rights are violated.

So this could be interesting. I don't pretend Ireland is magically pro-abortion, but they may be realizing that "pro-choice" policies do save lives, particularly compared to "no exception" policies.

 

[sandandfoam]

Are you hearing the same concern about the lack of clarity in the Irish Law?

Yes we are, and then a politician pops up and says there is no lack of clarity.
Can you listen to RTE or Newstalk podcasts? you will get acres of it on Pat Kenny or Newstalks lunchtime program.

 

[sandandfoam]

3 months? Why on earth should it take 3 months for them to figure out that someone screwed up?

I know - I would have thought 3 days. Smells like horse manure preperation to me.

 

[Revoltingest]

3 months? Why on earth should it take 3 months for them to figure out that someone screwed up?

Lawyers & gov officials have a different sense of time...
...much like the lazy bear who lives next door to Porky Pig.
[youtube]v6j6mwWgZ6w[/youtube]
Working Can Wait - Porky's Bear Facts - Lazy

 

[Drolefille]

Yes we are, and then a politician pops up and says there is no lack of clarity.
Can you listen to RTE or Newstalk podcasts? you will get acres of it on Pat Kenny or Newstalks lunchtime program.

Every article I see talks about the law not having the provision for the life of the mother (I did post the law here), the court ruling from 92, and then people stating the law is unclear. They're primarily UK articles.

I'll see if I have access, I just already get Everyday Ethics and Beyond Belief from the BBC autodownloaded to my phone. I've not listened to the others. NPR may also cover it here, I need to look.

 

[sandandfoam]

Every article I see talks about the law not having the provision for the life of the mother (I did post the law here), the court ruling from 92, and then people stating the law is unclear. They're primarily UK articles.

I'll see if I have access, I just already get Everyday Ethics and Beyond Belief from the BBC autodownloaded to my phone. I've not listened to the others. NPR may also cover it here, I need to look.

You might let me know if this works RTÉ - Today with Pat Kenny

It's at the top of the list

 

[Drolefille]

You might let me know if this works RTÉ - Today with Pat Kenny

It's at the top of the list

It does! Now just to see if I like it, ty!

 

[Quiddity]

That's what they were doing. Effectively, they were waiting for the fetus to die naturally. The problem is that by the time this happened, it was too late to save the woman.

I understand that. They screwed up big time by waiting (if the report is accuarte). My point is that one doesn't have to terminate the life of the fetus (since the heart was said to of been still beating) to terminate her pregnancy. They could have acted with more caution and done something much sooner. For cases like this, it is not unusual:

"In current obstetrical practice, rare complications can arise where therapeutic intervention (including termination of a pregnancy) is required at a stage when, due to extreme immaturity of the baby, there may be little or no hope of the baby surviving. In these exceptional circumstances, it may be necessary to intervene to terminate the pregnancy to protect the life of the mother, while making every effort to preserve the life of the baby."

http://www.medicalcouncil.ie/Regist...iour-for-Registered-Medical-Practitioners.pdf

Notice they make a distinction between terminating pregnancies and terminating the fetus. This is the crux of why I keep saying that it does not violate catholic teaching. If you go back and read what I quoted about catholic teaching, it flows with these type of situations. Drolefille is right in noting it's similar to ectopic pregnancies, but wrong in noting that it violates it.

 

[Drolefille]

I understand that. They screwed up big time by waiting (if the report is accuarte). My point is that one doesn't have to terminate the life of the fetus (since the heart was said to of been still beating) to terminate her pregnancy. They could have acted with more caution and done something much sooner. For cases like this, it is not unusual:

"In current obstetrical practice, rare complications can arise where therapeutic intervention (including termination of a pregnancy) is required at a stage when, due to extreme immaturity of the baby, there may be little or no hope of the baby surviving. In these exceptional circumstances, it may be necessary to intervene to terminate the pregnancy to protect the life of the mother, while making every effort to preserve the life of the baby."

http://www.medicalcouncil.ie/Regist...iour-for-Registered-Medical-Practitioners.pdf

Notice they make a distinction between terminating pregnancies and terminating the fetus. This is the crux of why I keep saying that it does not violate catholic teaching. If you go back and read what I quoted about catholic teaching, it flows with these type of situations. Drolefille is right in noting it's similar to ectopic pregnancies, but wrong in noting that it violates it.

This isn't making sense. You're making a distinction between terminating the pregnancy and the fetus. How would you terminate the pregnancy in this situation without terminating the fetus. Standard procedure would be a D&C. That would be terminating the fetus.

In an ectopic pregnancy, they dodge this by removing the fallopian tube, NOT by terminating the fetus. It would be far safer to induce a medical abortion, but that is not allowed by Catholic doctrine.

You keep saying it is possible without actually showing HOW. Standard medical procedure would violate doctrine.

 

[Rakhel]

It also depends on the stage of the pregnancy.