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Irony of the evolutionary belief

cladking

Well-Known Member
But let's say that the next change was in the temperature. And then after that the change could be in how much water was available or its quality. All of these changes, which can go either way, will cause organisms to react and they will naturally change as those that are best suited for this most recent environment do better.

Most squirrels are born in about the exact same environment as their great great great great grandparents. Some years they eat more berries and fewer acorns but many environments don't change much from century to century. In such an environment each successive generation should be more fit than the last since weaker, dumber, and slower squirrels are being picked off by predators. Indeed, almost everywhere even including changing environment this must necessarily tend to be true.

It makes no sense to dispute this.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
. You ignore the fact that environments change and then wonder why species evolve. Y

No. Darwin is the one who assumed niches don't change. He specifically stated that populations tend to be stable. It's nonsense but it underlies his beliefs.

I believe that with every birth and every death that species change just as modern science changes. Indeed, species change SUDDENLY when all typical behavior is eradicated. [is this thing on]should I define metaphysics again[/is this thing on]

Yes, there are changes when the environment changes, but not radical ones.

Incredible!
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Most squirrels are born in about the exact same environment as their great great great great grandparents. Some years they eat more berries and fewer acorns but many environments don't change much from century to century. In such an environment each successive generation should be more fit than the last since weaker, dumber, and slower squirrels are being picked off by predators. Indeed, almost everywhere even including changing environment this must necessarily tend to be true.

It makes no sense to dispute this.
There is plenty of good reason to dispute that. You are assuming that squirrels could keep getting more and more better adapted to an environment. No, as long as they can successfully reproduce there is no evolutionary pressure to make them improve beyond that. Your reasoning is always very shallow in these matters. You then make unsupported assumptions and run away when challenged You should be using the scientific method and challenging yourself all of the time. That would save everyone else the little effort that it takes to refute you.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
No. Darwin is the one who assumed niches don't change. He specifically stated that populations tend to be stable. It's nonsense but it underlies his beliefs.

You are misinterpreting his work. And you just supported his assumption in your last post. Oh my oh my.
I believe that with every birth and every death that species change just as modern science changes. Indeed, species change SUDDENLY when all typical behavior is eradicated. [is this thing on]should I define metaphysics again[/is this thing on]
Yeah, your version of "metaphysics" does not appear to have any value. But the evidence is that change is slow. It can be more rapid at times, but the Dinosaur Killer Meteor was an example of change that was too quick for a great number of species. Those changes are the exception.

Your problem is that you do not seem to understand that the fossil record is built upon the geologic time scale. In the geologic times scale a million years can be very small amount of time. On the biological time scale that can be a huge amount of time.
Incredible!
Why is that "incredible"? It is what is observed. For radical changes, such as the extinction of the nonavian dinosaurs and the rise of the mammals very rare large scale disasters are needed. But that is not the norm.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
All belief requires a sort of doublethink and the inability to see anomalies and that the belief is underlain by other unsupported beliefs. It requires the believer to believe man is even capable of answering highly complex questions with our highly limited knowledge. It requires that we accept premises that are invisible to the believer. It requires that either we accept natural causes or that we accept religious beliefs. It requires that we believe the big picture can be reduced to experiment.

The problem is that the big picture can not be reduced to experiment and that religion is an attempt at recreating the big picture in terms of reality itself. Religion resonates with almost everyone, at some stage of their life, because it resonates with the big picture. Science does not because it can resonate only with most of the parts of the big picture. There is no means to reassemble the big picture from broken, distorted, and missing puzzle pieces.

Ironically religion has a far clearer picture of change in species than modern science. Honor thy mother and thy father is far closer to the nature of life than survival of the fittest.

Ultimately of course everything to do with every single one of us begins and ends with beliefs.

I only believe people make sense and reality exists so I came up with an entirely different paradigm.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
All belief requires a sort of doublethink and the inability to see anomalies and that the belief is underlain by other unsupported beliefs. It requires the believer to believe man is even capable of answering highly complex questions with our highly limited knowledge. It requires that we accept premises that are invisible to the believer. It requires that either we accept natural causes or that we accept religious beliefs. It requires that we believe the big picture can be reduced to experiment.

The problem is that the big picture can not be reduced to experiment and that religion is an attempt at recreating the big picture in terms of reality itself. Religion resonates with almost everyone, at some stage of their life, because it resonates with the big picture. Science does not because it can resonate with most of the parts of the big picture. There is no means to reassemble the big picture from broken, distorted, and missing puzzle pieces.

Ironically religion has a far clearer picture of change in species than modern science. Honor thy mother and thy father is far closer to the nature of life than survival of the fittest.

Ultimately of course everything to do with every single one of us begins and ends with beliefs.

I only believe people make sense and reality exists so I came up with an entirely different paradigm.
You are rambling and projecting again.
 

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
How do fit parents prevent their offspring from being fit?

They have no say in the matter. Which particular sperm and which particular egg come together to form a fertilized egg, and whether there where any mutations incorporated in the particular sperm or egg, or whether mutation errors occur during subsequent development of the egg is all random chance. Whether the resultant offspring is sufficiently adequate to survive long enough to reproduce would remain to be seen and is also determined by other factors not related to fitness but to chance circumstances. If lightning starts a forest fire and the animal gets trapped and dies in the fire, that was simply bad luck in the face of a transient circumstance.

Do niches evolve so fast that birds and rabbits are whipsawed by the environment that makes being faster, stronger, or smarter useless?

I wouldn't use the term evolve, rather, I would say ecosystems change. How fast or slow that change occurs is not fixed. Some environments or ecosystems may stay relatively unchanged for millennia or eons. Take oceans depths for example.

Rate of change is a relative thing and dependent on the specific factors at hand, with some changes easily adapted too despite a fast change, while even a slow change can spell doom for a species that has no way to get from their current configuration to one that will survive the changes to come. Here I think of those animals suited to an ice age environment that could not adapt to its recession.

There is always the chance for catastrophic change, such as a large meteor strike, such that nothing survives within a certain range of ground zero and the rest may or may not be sufficient to weather the immediate global change that results. Whatever is left simply has to keep plugging along and will either be sufficient to the task of survival and reproduction, or won't.

If survival of the fittest is a random walk then why do species change? How does a random walk lead to speciation?
The change in sexually reproducing organisms is constant. I am not genetically identical nor physically identical to my parents, nor they to theirs, etc. Second, it is not about fittest, but being adequate or sufficient. If an offspring's set of characteristics are insufficient for current conditions, they die. Could they have been sufficient for some other condition, location, time, or circumstance? Certainly. The randomness of environment and circumstances is what chooses winners and losers, i.e. who makes it long enough to reproduce or not.

Isn't every individual pretty much stuck with the genes from his parent?

For now, yes, and certainly in the wild. With the advent of gene therapies however, this will probably change. Oh, also creating designer genomes is also a possibility in the future.

How does an individual adapt?
Once born some organisms have mechanisms to adapt to changes or transient circumstances. Many organisms can regulate their metabolism within certain ranges, allowing them to handle both cold and warm environments. Obviously, use and disuse of muscles leads to strengthening or atrophy of muscle groups, such that dominant activities can better condition the organism to that activity. Take running or swimming for example. For humans, getting better at running by running does not necessarily translate to getting better at swimming, or vice versa. Organisms with memory systems can potentially learn and remember circumstances that pose a threat and adapt their behavior accordingly.

Yes! Exactly. Every individual is equally fit.

No, every individual is different to some degree. Whether they are sufficiently adequate to survive to reproduce will be tested by their circumstances.

Mutation is irrelevant to the discussion because it is the chief means by which species change outside of bottlenecks. This has been stipulated and is irrelevant to the belief in survival of the fittest.

Hmmm. Hardly irrelevant to acknowledge an active contributor to why organisms continually change each generation. What is significant with mutation is the possibility for dramatic changes, which can equally doom the offspring, be a neutral consequence, or enhance its survivability in current conditions. Additionally, if neutral under current conditions, when passed down may be advantageous to subsequent generations that receive it given their particular conditions, or doom them. Only time will tell.



This is the point here and it is illogical.

All genes breed true. All individuals are similar to their parents. Therefore each generation is by definition more fit than the previous if Darwin were right. If species change through survival of the fittest then there is a continuing improvement in every species until they change one by one. It is irrelevant that this is not a straight line process, it would still exist if survival of the fittest drove speciation.

All genes breed true? How do you explain birth defects? Please, take a second to think things through.

Genetic variation among organisms is constant as a result of sexual reproduction and mutations. Genetic change occurs regardless. Speciation is the result of their being a wide variety of ecosystems for Life to exploit. Time, environment, and circumstance determine which characteristics that arise in a constantly changing genome are sufficient for survival, and with Life exploiting different conditions, different species arise with their specific dominant characteristics sufficient to survive in some portion of those different conditions.
 

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Most squirrels are born in about the exact same environment as their great great great great grandparents. Some years they eat more berries and fewer acorns but many environments don't change much from century to century. In such an environment each successive generation should be more fit than the last since weaker, dumber, and slower squirrels are being picked off by predators. Indeed, almost everywhere even including changing environment this must necessarily tend to be true.

It makes no sense to dispute this.

Let's look at squirrels, shall we? Have you ever noticed the stop/start, zig/zag behavior of squirrels that seems to have evolved to help them escape certain predators, say foxes, for example? That behavior has probably served them quite well for millennia.

Now comes the industrial revolution and fast moving cars. Have you ever noticed how this behavior now hinders a squirrels survival when faced with a fast-moving car that does not jink or change course in anticipation of the squirrels feints?

The squirrels environment has changed and their strategy is no longer "smart".
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Whether the resultant offspring is sufficiently adequate to survive long enough to reproduce would remain to be seen and is also determined by other factors not related to fitness but to chance circumstances.

No, it is not random chance. If the egg and sperm are from the fastest two rabbits on earth the offspro9ing is far far more likely to be fast than any other individual.

Second, it is not about fittest, but being adequate or sufficient.

It sounds like you agree with me then that all individuals (except accidents) are equally fit. All individuals have their own individual consciousness and their own individual genes which makes them different and best suited to someone different environments. If their parents exist in a given environment then there's a very high probability each equally fit off spring will also survive there even if some few are born such that they can't survive anywhere.

If Evolution were driven by mere "adequacy" as is now maintained then we should say not "survival of the fittest" or "naturally selected (for life) but rather death of the least fit and naturally selected for death is what drives Evolution. Neither of these is true since every individual is equally fit and nature doesn't care how fit a rabbit is or isn't as it's being eaten by a fox.

All genes breed true? How do you explain birth defects? Please, take a second to think things through.

It's remarkable people imagine survival of the fittest but are oblivious to the simple truism that all off spring are more similar to their parents than ANY other individuals. Even before a rabbit is born to the fastest two rabbits on earth it is a virtual certainty that it will be faster than most rabbits. This is the way reality works. Survival of the fittest sprang from Darwin's beliefs. I'm talking obvious facts and you're speculating on how selection might apply despite these obvious facts.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Once born some organisms have mechanisms to adapt to changes or transient circumstances. Many organisms can regulate their metabolism within certain ranges, allowing them to handle both cold and warm environments. Obviously, use and disuse of muscles leads to strengthening or atrophy of muscle groups, such that dominant activities can better condition the organism to that activity. Take running or swimming for example. For humans, getting better at running by running does not necessarily translate to getting better at swimming, or vice versa. Organisms with memory systems can potentially learn and remember circumstances that pose a threat and adapt their behavior accordingly.

Yes!! Obviously individuals adapt as well but I've avoided mentioning the huge importance of this in life and change in species because it hugely complicates an already impossibly complicated picture. Some individuals can adapt or even compensate for a far wider range of environments than others and this affects not only their ability to procreate but could affect the odds of any given beneficial mutation.

Even if there were variation in fitness and even if it did affect change in species it would still be a gross oversimplification of the processes.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Now comes the industrial revolution and fast moving cars. Have you ever noticed how this behavior now hinders a squirrels survival when faced with a fast-moving car that does not jink or change course in anticipation of the squirrels feints?

Around here squirrels have already evolved to run straight across roads. They tend to always wait for the cars to pass as well.

This is simple adaptation. It is neither evolution nor survival of the fittest.

It's always a pleasure talking to you.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Around here squirrels have already evolved to run straight across roads. They tend to always wait for the cars to pass as well.

70 years ago 50 squirrels a year got hit on my stretch of road. Today it is about 3 per year despite about a 40 fold increase in traffic. I suspect most are being chased when they are hit.
 

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
No, it is not random chance. If the egg and sperm are from the fastest two rabbits on earth the offspro9ing is far far more likely to be fast than any other individual.

I agree that, given the pool of genes available to groups of individuals that can successfully mate with each other, the expression of genes in those individuals will have very similar characteristics and behaviors overall, such that they are seen as a distinctive group, a species. The expression of any particular trait, however, may be rather simple, or it may be complex, involving the expression of more than one gene for example. I, personally, am wholly unaware of all that goes into what makes one rabbit inherently faster than another, or one human being faster than another. Yet it is still more complicated, for when talking of speed, we have to consider over what time period? One ideally suited to be fastest over 50 meters is not ideally suited to be fastest over 26 miles.

More importantly, however, you are fixated on differences between parents and offspring, the difference over one generation. This is too short a timescale to observe the emergence or changes of species. Again, it is a complex calculus of continual change, yet small differences in genetic makeup of individuals, mutations, and ever changing environments and circumstances over very long periods of time. Time is the key to big changes.



It sounds like you agree with me then that all individuals (except accidents) are equally fit. All individuals have their own individual consciousness and their own individual genes which makes them different and best suited to someone different environments. If their parents exist in a given environment then there's a very high probability each equally fit off spring will also survive there even if some few are born such that they can't survive anywhere.

Certainly. Mixing of the pool of genes in a given species means that in the very short timespan of one generation, parent to offspring, statistically their will not be dramatic changes in environment or conditions, and therefore offspring, statistically, will be sufficient to also survive and reproduce. But that is an insignificant time interval when speaking about evolution of species. Wouldn't you agree?

If Evolution were driven by mere "adequacy" as is now maintained then we should say not "survival of the fittest" or "naturally selected (for life) but rather death of the least fit and naturally selected for death is what drives Evolution. Neither of these is true since every individual is equally fit and nature doesn't care how fit a rabbit is or isn't as it's being eaten by a fox.

"Nature" is not sentient, so you are correct, "Nature", or more broadly the Cosmos, does not care what survives or dies. Life as a whole, when viewed as a single organism, also does not care what particular expression of life survives or dies out. It seems that the primary inclination of this organism Life is to continue to exist, and that inclination is achieved by creating as many differing expression of itself to exploit any possible resource it can that will enable Life to continue existing.

It's remarkable people imagine survival of the fittest but are oblivious to the simple truism that all off spring are more similar to their parents than ANY other individuals. Even before a rabbit is born to the fastest two rabbits on earth it is a virtual certainty that it will be faster than most rabbits. This is the way reality works. Survival of the fittest sprang from Darwin's beliefs. I'm talking obvious facts and you're speculating on how selection might apply despite these obvious facts.

Again, you must think in timescales much greater than one generation to fully appreciate the process of evolution.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
This is very simple. I know you can follow it.

It is established fact that faster, stronger, and smarter individuals have like offspring.

Even the dumbest bacteria give rise to more poison resistant offspring if you give them ever increasing amounts of poison in their environments. It doesn't require parents to be smart. It's a natural progression as species adapt to change. Therefore it simply follows that each generation is more fit than the previous. This is why people want to commit genocide and kill the less fit. Like that survival of the fittest drives Evolution it is a belief with no justification in experiment.

The reality is successive generations are not more fit. They are each a new "species" but the differences are usually too subtle to define as a new species. This changes primarily when a species emerges from a bottleneck with dramatic new traits. Species change suddenly because of the eradication of many genes that drive a behavior that defines the species. A catastrophe that kills every dam building beaver might suddenly lead to a dramatically different sort of "beaver" that is a new species. Alternatively the species would go extinct. Nature provides species a wide array and variety of genes in order to create new species that can fill new niches. Nature doesn't protect individuals by "fitness" or because she likes them. She provides every single individual a consciousness so it can protect itself. Nature doesn't care if every beaver dies but new species are critical to maintaining the cooperation that is life and its every niche. Without humans there wouldn't be thousands of square miles of wheat. There wouldn't be much life in Antarctica. There would be millions of deep holes all over the planet brewing up some new strange form of life. There wouldn't be oil seeping off the continental shelf with a new bacteria eating it. We wouldn't have dogs and agriculture.

Stop me when you've heard this before.
It's like you read the back cover of a book on evolution and then just imagined what the other 1000 pages said.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Nature didn't give a damn about Charles Darwin or any of his beliefs. Nature doesn't care whether theory is based on "evidence" or experiment either. Nature does what it does independently of natural law, theory, or unsupported beliefs in Evolution. Nature is not beholden to any beliefs whatsoever. It is beholden only to initial conditions and cause and effect. Humans are mere observers and NEVER control reality. It is a mirage that we know what nature is doing created by our circular reasoning. We never know because we are never the cause and always necessarily the effect. It's the way we think which results from beliefs. We see logic where none can exist because every thought is parsed.

If nature cared about Darwin He'd still be alive having progeny. He was merely a man and he was simply wrong like every one of us. He has been enshrined and his beliefs elevated to gospel. Despite a century and a half of what is often REAL science contradicting Him, He is still held as some sort of unerring God.
This is such a collection of bs that I don't even know where to begin.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Religion resonates with almost everyone, at some stage of their life, because it resonates with the big picture.
Because it resonates with wishfull thinking.



Ironically religion has a far clearer picture of change in species than modern science.

I lol'ed

Honor thy mother and thy father is far closer to the nature of life than survival of the fittest.

I facepalmed

Ultimately of course everything to do with every single one of us begins and ends with beliefs.

Talk for yourself.
For me it begins and ends with evidence.

I only believe people make sense and reality exists so I came up with an entirely different paradigm.
A paradigm that is build on nothing but strawmen and wishfull thinking.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Nature didn't give a damn about Charles Darwin or any of his beliefs. Nature doesn't care whether theory is based on "evidence" or experiment either. Nature does what it does independently of natural law, theory, or unsupported beliefs in Evolution.
Nature IS natural law. It's the product of natural law. The ToE merely describes the natural mechanisms by which nature operates.
Nature is not beholden to any beliefs whatsoever. It is beholden only to initial conditions and cause and effect. Humans are mere observers and NEVER control reality. It is a mirage that we know what nature is doing created by our circular reasoning. We never know because we are never the cause and always necessarily the effect. It's the way we think which results from beliefs. We see logic where none can exist because every thought is parsed.
With the exception of selective breeding or genetic engineering, nobody's claiming that nature is controlled by human theories or desires. The theory describes; it doesn't compel.
If nature cared about Darwin He'd still be alive having progeny. He was merely a man and he was simply wrong like every one of us. He has been enshrined and his beliefs elevated to gospel. Despite a century and a half of what is often REAL science contradicting Him, He is still held as some sort of unerring God.
What are you talking about? Darwin described mechanisms, based on observations. He never claimed to control anything.
His hypotheses have since been supported by mountains of empirical evidence.

Please explain how the ToE is contradicted by science.

This belief that Darwin is revered as some sort of unerring God is a fantasy circulating among creationists. It's creationists who are always bringing up Darwin, not biologists. Biology has advanced way beyond Darwin. He and his work are historical curiosities.
 
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