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Irony of the evolutionary belief

cladking

Well-Known Member
You probably should stop using that term. You're still not correct, and you should be able to see that. You know that every creature dies, including the fittest. Its fitness was manifest long before that when it generated copies of its alleles and added them to the population's gene pool and modifying their relative proportions.

No matter what words you use the simple fact is that if survival of the fittest really existed then each generation is by definition fitter than the last. Indeed, Darwin specifically stated that only traits that can be inherited applied to Evolution. It follows each generation is fitter than the preceding unless the niche changes back to requiring weaker, slower, and dumber individuals.

Once again, if it works, it's fine as is. You have more trouble there than I do.

Indeed. I don't think like most people. I can talk to most engineer types and many religious people. In fact I don't have too much trouble with most people in day to day communication. There are advantages too because I can converse with young children and animals often find me trainable. I can pattens in many types of "noise" that others don't get. I'm also fairly good at following multiple conversations which can be important -rarely. People who don't speak precisely and accurately often give me headaches but what's worse is people who parse what I say as metaphor, symbolism, or nontautological. What I say is always literal except to the degree there can be humor (not here) or hyperbole involved. I speak in tautologies so everyone can see my premises. And then they call me a creationist idiot because they have all the answers and one of the answers is that no truth exists in the bible.

Science isn't wrong. Science is never wrong. But bad assumptions has resulted in a perspective that is virtually irrelevant to reality and the belief in it has killed millions of people since it was invented.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
That doesn't describe most communication, which involves a single copying. Everybody reading these words is reading the original, and their copy is second generation, not fourteenth, and so retains more fidelity.

Indeed. As I just stated recently this is the reason writing wasn't invented until 3200 BC. Before this there was no drift in communication. A message could be relayed around the world and come back unchanged.

We imagine people were too stupid or sun addled to think of writing. The reality is they simply had no real need for it. People learned about reality by learning how to use language. Books would have been of little use. News wasn't made up in a little room in NYC. People who needed to remember grocery lists just used mnemonics. Life was simpler.

Pidgin language speakers needed writing.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I say "I believe that language changed at an event we know only as 5the "Tower of Babel" and then most people including every single believer in science tells me they know for a fact that there was no Tower of Babel, language never changed, and that I'm an ignorant (and probably stupid) Biblical creationist.
If you're satisfied with that result, you shouldn't change a thing you're doing.
I'm coming to believe there is no means to communicate with people if you don't accept their fundamental assumptions
I've already explained to you what I see being the problem is in your case, but you weren't interested in discussing it, so, I leave you to work that out yourself. How's that coming along?

And your comment is incorrect. It is enough to know what the other believes to communicate effectively. It is not necessary to agree with those beliefs.
When a patient says "doc, it hurts when I do this" a good doctor will tell him not to do it.
I've tried, but you don't even acknowledge seeing the recommendations and continue doing what you did before.
It would never occur to most people that the moon doesn't orbit the earth but a point between the center of the earth and moon, and it also orbits every particle in the universe that is moving relative to it.
It doesn't matter to most people. It's information the knowing of which changes nothing for them.
But now it appears that we can't go any further on this road because we are on a detour and headed the wrong direction. We need to at the very least build a bridge back to the main route.
So you keep telling us. You bemoan problems that you can't describe or illustrate with example and that others tell you they don't see.
No matter what words you use the simple fact is that if survival of the fittest really existed then each generation is by definition fitter than the last.
That's already been rebutted. If you don't care to address the rebuttal, that's fine, but repeating what has been rebutted is pointless. When rebuttal ends, debate ends. The last plausible, unrebutted claim holds sway. Consider scientific peer review and courtroom trials. This is how peers and juries decide what is true about reality.

In a court of law, that process of argument-counterargument begins with an opening statement by the prosecution and a theory of a crime. If this argument is convincing to a jury and not successfully rebutted, it's time for a verdict: guilty. But perhaps the defense can poke a hole in that theory, maybe by offering an alibi for the defendant. Perhaps there is cell tower ping data suggesting that the defendant wasn't present at the scene of the crime. If this isn't rebutted, it becomes the last plausible unrebutted argument, and the jury is ready to vote for acquittal. But then, the prosecution produces photos of the suspect near the scene of the crime, resuscitating the original theory of guilt. And once again, if this cannot be successfully rebutted - if it cannot be shown that the prosecution cannot be right - the debate is over and the jury able to convict.

This is dialectic. Any other form of discussion is useless in deciding matters.
Science isn't wrong. Science is never wrong. But bad assumptions has resulted in a perspective that is virtually irrelevant to reality and the belief in it has killed millions of people since it was invented.
"Irrelevant to reality"? "Killed millions of people since it was invented" That sounds like religion, not science.
We imagine people were too stupid or sun addled to think of writing. The reality is they simply had no real need for it
Writing is useful. We lived for generations without it, but not because it wouldn't have been useful. They did cave paintings first, and then stylized glyphs and wedges before coming up with syllabaries and alphabets, but all with the same purpose:

1698175896010.png
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
You bemoan problems that you can't describe or illustrate with example and that others tell you they don't see.

There is no survival of the fittest and millions are dying because we believe in it.

We waste the earth's resources and abuse those who work by not allowing them to excel. We waste far more than we produce. To right this wrong we have wars and bulldoze more power plants. We build products of such horrible quality they go almost straight to landfill.

Why don't they see? Why can't people see that giving the wealthy all the money to build ever shabbier products by people whose life expectancy is dropping fast is a problem? What does it take to see even ivy league schools are turning out inferior product and many high school graduates can't even be trained to be plumbers and electricians?

Look at our leaders!

How can people not see a problem with every law being written not by elected officials by bureaucrats beholden to special interests and the money provided by special interests and the science purchased by these special interests? On the rare occasion Congress does pass a law none of them even read it. They have special interests with stacks of money to "inform" them if they should for it or not.

you're right that there's nothing wrong because the fittest people on earth are rich and will breed a new generation of richer and more fit individuals even as life expectancy continues to plummet. The only important thing is that the rich survive and exactly 14% are African American. Oh no, wait. rich people still aren't even integrated yet. You don't see black people on Madison Avenue only in every single ad. The hypocrisy and insanity of the age is palpable.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Yes, exactly. I say "I believe that language changed at an event we know only as 5the "Tower of Babel" and then most people including every single believer in science tells me they know for a fact that there was no Tower of Babel, language never changed, and that I'm an ignorant (and probably stupid) Biblical creationist. I have never said the "Tower of Babel" existed. I seriously doubt it did. It might have been the Meidum Pyramid or only God knows what. Unlike those ascribing meaning I never even said! "I don't know!". this isn't just an expression. It is the reality. Changing the one language of the entire planet and population was likely more a series of related events that was a little different everywhere it occurred. I don't know. I'm working with all the same evidence and experiment that everyone else is. I don't believe you are omniscient so why in the hell should I think I am. The main difference here is you have discounted and ignored vast swathes of facts and evidence as well as most experiment because most people can think in terms of only one equation, one experiment, and one fact at a time. I don't think this way!!! And I believe ALL the facts, ALL the evidence, and ALL of what is recorded in history and pre-history fits one single pattern.

Communicating the nature of this pattern is nearly impossible because we all speak different languages: remember the tower of babel, it still applies even when I don't use it in a sentence and people parse it to mean I'm an idiot rather than ancient people were not idiots. I can't read what I write for you. You must try to parse it as intended and try to address that and not what you mean when you say "metaphysics".

If I were saying Darwin was right about species changing slowly because the fit survive, nobody would have trouble understanding me. Nobody would ask why each generation isn't more naturally selectable than the last.

Bad Darwin. We were already on a 2000 year long detour and he set us on a 200 year detour from our detour. Meanwhile 40.000 years of human science lies just out of the reach of tourists because Egyptology is anti-science. The world is lost and spiraling down the tubes as we kill off the unfit and operate an economy that wastes virtually all human potential and more than 90% of the resources it consumes. Of course the only solution is to bulldoze more power plants and have more wars. It's all good because everything we destroy just gets more money going to the rich whom are most fit and most likely to breed a new generation even better than homo omnisciencis has ever been.

It's not a crazy world because people are crazy. Did I ever mention everyone makes sense (even Hamas). It's a crazy world because we have crazy premises like linear progress and the unfit die. Bad Darwin.
Language constantly changed and evolved over the recent thousands of human history. If has nothing to do with the mythical "Tower of Babel" like all myths of the Bible including the Noah flood.

Still waiting for a response to post #817
 

gnostic

The Lost One
I believe reality is logic manifest and beavers use logic incarnate in the wiring of their brains to have invented dams.

they built dams as shelters that provided them with some safety against predators. It is their lairs

I recalled in some other threads, that YOU ORIGINALLY BELIEVED that the purpose of the dam-building were to farm fishes to eat, except that beavers were herbivores. They don’t eat fishes, and they don’t create fish farming.

To this date, you still haven’t admitted that you were wrong about the whole beaver’s ”fish farm” business.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
There is no survival of the fittest and millions are dying because we believe in it.

We waste the earth's resources and abuse those who work by not allowing them to excel. We waste far more than we produce. To right this wrong we have wars and bulldoze more power plants. We build products of such horrible quality they go almost straight to landfill.

Why don't they see? Why can't people see that giving the wealthy all the money to build ever shabbier products by people whose life expectancy is dropping fast is a problem? What does it take to see even ivy league schools are turning out inferior product and many high school graduates can't even be trained to be plumbers and electricians?

Look at our leaders!

How can people not see a problem with every law being written not by elected officials by bureaucrats beholden to special interests and the money provided by special interests and the science purchased by these special interests? On the rare occasion Congress does pass a law none of them even read it. They have special interests with stacks of money to "inform" them if they should for it or not.

you're right that there's nothing wrong because the fittest people on earth are rich and will breed a new generation of richer and more fit individuals even as life expectancy continues to plummet. The only important thing is that the rich survive and exactly 14% are African American. Oh no, wait. rich people still aren't even integrated yet. You don't see black people on Madison Avenue only in every single ad. The hypocrisy and insanity of the age is palpable.
You talk about how millions have been killed by the idea of the survival of the fittest. Is this what you were referring to - "the hypocrisy and insanity of the age"? If so, why did you think your words would suggest this topic to me? I thought we were discussing problems with science and evolutionary theory. I was.

I could give you some pointers here, but you haven't been interested in the past, so I've stopped doing that.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Language constantly changed and evolved over the recent thousands of human history. If has nothing to do with the mythical "Tower of Babel" like all myths of the Bible including the Noah flood.

Yes!!! How many times have I said language has splintered so many times there are 8 billion languages and they change with every birth and every death. All through "recorded history" language changes daily. But you can't even see it when I say recorded history didn't begin with the invention of wring in 3200 BC it began at the tower of babel in 2000 BC. There was one language used by humans and it didn't change until metaphysics changed.

You imagine you know what the Bible means and you imagine it can't be right. You know better than Bible scholars and you know everything there is to know about science so you know the Bible is false.

I assumed everyone has always made perfect sense so i arrived at different conclusions. I didn't assume survival of the fittest or that progress is linear. I didn't assume that just because expert opinion is the best game in town that it is always correct. Darwin assumptions were all wrong so Masperro couldn't see that ancient people made sense. Freud couldn't see schtupping his sister in law might lead to an intellectualization of bad behavior. On and on it goes with the weak being murdered and the world getting crazier.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Yes!!! How many times have I said language has splintered so many times there are 8 billion languages and they change with every birth and every death. All through "recorded history" language changes daily. But you can't even see it when I say recorded history didn't begin with the invention of wring in 3200 BC it began at the tower of babel in 2000 BC. There was one language used by humans and it didn't change until metaphysics changed.

You imagine you know what the Bible means and you imagine it can't be right. You know better than Bible scholars and you know everything there is to know about science so you know the Bible is false.

I assumed everyone has always made perfect sense so i arrived at different conclusions. I didn't assume survival of the fittest or that progress is linear. I didn't assume that just because expert opinion is the best game in town that it is always correct. Darwin assumptions were all wrong so Masperro couldn't see that ancient people made sense. Freud couldn't see schtupping his sister in law might lead to an intellectualization of bad behavior. On and on it goes with the weak being murdered and the world getting crazier.
Rambling beyond rampling. No evidence of 8 billion languages. Not comprehensible for a response.

Still waiting for a response to post #817
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
You talk about how millions have been killed by the idea of the survival of the fittest. Is this what you were referring to - "the hypocrisy and insanity of the age"? If so, why did you think your words would suggest this topic to me? I thought we were discussing problems with science and evolutionary theory. I was.

Much of the insanity of the age IS the belief in survival of the fittest and is a direct or indirect result of the belief in survival of the fittest. Bad Darwin.

You can't distill the belief in Darwin out of the age or every every educated individual in the world today. Just like you can't distill the belief that people aren't responsible for their actions because they have a "subconscious mind". Darwin was wrong and we've been getting much wronger every passing day. Operations like tonsillectomies go in and out of style. People are dismissed as hypochondriacs or experimented on almost like Mengele. Social triage is based on race again. Madness has gripped everything. Probably no idea lies more at the heart of the madness than "survival of the fittest". People are so happy not to drag tombs up ramps they think their lives are perfect. Stress is higher every year and every year the food gets worse. Jobs get more drudgery. Employees are more disgruntled. And the owners care not about the product, their customers, or their employees but only what they can milk from the company, its liabilities, and the pension plan. It used to be that if you stole a million dollars from the commonweal and got away with it you paid more than 90% in income taxes. Today greed is good and you'll pay less taxes than your secretary. It's survival of the fittest and anyone with a billion or two is the fittest. It's no matter that his employees die young, his creditors go broke, and his customers throw the product in the trash after a single attempt at using it.

Darwin botched it all up in a perfectly natural way.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Rambling beyond rampling. No evidence of 8 billion languages. Not comprehensible for a response.

Still waiting for a response to post #817

I've dismissed this argument many times even in the last few pages. Maybe you missed it. Species adapt very rapidly by means of something that kindda looks like survival of the fittest. It is sort of survival of the fittest but the fact is that it's obvious that if you paint targets on butterflies those with the targets will suffer more predation than others. Like ALL CHANGES in species this adaptation occurred rapidly. It was not a speciation event merely an adaptation. Speciation events are even more rapid and occur over only a few generations. There is no gradual change caused by "survival of the fittest". Bad Darwin.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
No evidence of 8 billion languages.

Well there aren't quite 8 billion people yet.

The pidgin language speakers at babel could not understand one another because every word had to be parsed. While communication is better today the fact is everyone still has their own language. There are still people who think "metaphysics" has only one meaning. And many people use it in ways that don't fit any meaning at all. Or they think it applies to a chance meeting with an old physics prof.

You can list an infinite number of reasons people don't understand one another and chinese telephone works but the bottom line is there really are (nearly) 8 billion languages.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Well there aren't quite 8 billion people yet.

The pidgin language speakers at babel could not understand one another because every word had to be parsed. While communication is better today the fact is everyone still has their own language. There are still people who think "metaphysics" has only one meaning. And many people use it in ways that don't fit any meaning at all. Or they think it applies to a chance meeting with an old physics prof.

You can list an infinite number of reasons people don't understand one another and chinese telephone works but the bottom line is there really are (nearly) 8 billion languages.
The evidence indicates that the different languages evolved as humans migrated around the world from Africa, and no there was never any evidence of a single language in the history of humanity in 100,000 years or more,

The ancient mythology of primitive cultures does not answer the questions of human evolution and the evolution of human cultures and languages.

You need an education in the sciences of evolution and the recent history of humanity.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I've dismissed this argument many times even in the last few pages. Maybe you missed it. Species adapt very rapidly by means of something that kindda looks like survival of the fittest. It is sort of survival of the fittest but the fact is that it's obvious that if you paint targets on butterflies those with the targets will suffer more predation than others. Like ALL CHANGES in species this adaptation occurred rapidly. It was not a speciation event merely an adaptation. Speciation events are even more rapid and occur over only a few generations. There is no gradual change caused by "survival of the fittest". Bad Darwin.
Bad answer with a profound ignorance of evolution based on an ancient religious agenda without science. I gave a specific example of evolution in response to a change in fitness due to the environment and you failed to respond.
 
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cladking

Well-Known Member
The evidence indicates that the different languages evolved as humans migrated around the world from Africa, and no there was never any evidence of a single language in the history of humanity in 100,000 years or more,

Of course there is extensive evidence that I've presented many times. Just ignoring the Bible and other ancient sources doesn't magically make it "not evidence". Just ignoring logic, facts, and modern research doesn't make it go away.

1698184489797.png

How do you think the same representations appear all over the world? Obviously one man or one culture didn't run around the world looking for caves to doodle in.

Just as every ancient source says there was one single language and it was metaphysical.

It was digital, representational, literal, universal, and it was complex. It could not be translated so it was lost in its entirety.

This metaphysics became the basis of religion so it resonates with people. It invented agriculture so the superstitious bumpkins that survived babel didn't go extinct. Everything makes perfect sense just like people, reality and the natural world. We are wrong. Bad Darwin.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
No. It was not magical. Every modern language speaker must grow a broccas area to acquire language and this structure drives thinking. It leads it in a single dimension. Modern language speakers are fundamentally and structurally different than Ancient Language speakers. Most differences are subtle but the affect on behavior is total. The effect on the operation of the brain is utter.

The "tower of babel" is the only way we know of an event where Ancient Language was abandoned in favor of modern language because it had grown so complex there were too few individuals to operate the state. The state had to go or the language had to go.
The Tower of Babel is a story, presented in the context of a religion, attempting to explain why there were already so many different languages. There is no evidence it was a real event and no evidence that language changed like throwing a switch. There is no evidence for your "Ancient Language". At best, all I can determine is that it appears to be something you just made up.

it is something that he made up.

Cladking fabricated his own version of the Tower of Babel myth…in which he believed to happen 4000 years ago or 2000 BCE.

The problem is that he believe that the Tower of Babel had caused the speciation event, between the Ancient Language of the Homo sapiens which he originally thought were the Nephilim in Ancient Reality thread) to the multiple pidgin languages of the nonexistent species of the Homo Omnisciensis.

There are no such species, and yet he persistently preach this nonsense.

Historically multiple languages have already existed in the Middle East prior to this 2000 BCE nonexistent & nonsensical Tower of Babel of his: Egyptian (which included both hieroglyphs & hieratic writing, invented prior to 3000 BCE), Sumerian (cuneiform), Akkadian, Amorite, Elamite and many more languages. The Akkadians and Amorites spoke their own Semitic languages, during the 3rd millennium BCE, were already living in Sumer, have adopted the cuneiform writing as their own, as did the Elamites living east of Sumer, in northwest Iran.

The cuneiform writing were so popular that it continued to be used when spoken Sumerian language have died out, and it spread east and west, beyond Mesopotamia, in the next 2 millennia. Various eastern Anatolian cultures have adopted cuneiform, including the Hittites. It was also used along the coasts of the ancient Levant (Syria, Lebanon & Palestine), particularly Ugarit, and the Canaanites, prior to advent of alphabet writings in the late 2nd millennium BCE.

Although spoken ancient Aramaic were spoken including in the Persian Empire of the late 6th century BCE, Old Persian were written in cuneiform. Neo-Assyrian empire and the Chaldean Neo-Babylonian empire have also adopted Aramaic, but still used the Sumerian cuneiform.

Throughout the history of ancient Mesopotamia, the Sumerians, and later the Babylonians and Assyrians, have opened scribe schools, for apprentices to learn to write cuneiform.

languages - spoken & written - were always changing over time.

We know as cities and towns grow, became larger, different writing systems were invented and used.

In Egypt, hieroglyphs were mainly used by priesthood and royals, including funerary texts (eg Pyramid Text in the late 3rd millennium BCE, and the Coffin Texts of early 2nd millennium BCE), but they were too time-consuming & cumbersome for the rest of Egyptian society. The hieratic scripts were invented as early as 3000 BCE, which were far more useful, especially bookkeeping of inventories.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
...environment and you failed to respond.

You've merely proven my point. You can't see post 832 because it doesn't fit your belief. You can't respond to it because you can't accept my premises , like that reality and people always make sense.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Of course there is extensive evidence that I've presented many times. Just ignoring the Bible and other ancient sources doesn't magically make it "not evidence". Just ignoring logic, facts, and modern research doesn't make it go away.

View attachment 83926
How do you think the same representations appear all over the world? Obviously one man or one culture didn't run around the world looking for caves to doodle in.

Just as every ancient source says there was one single language and it was metaphysical.

It was digital, representational, literal, universal, and it was complex. It could not be translated so it was lost in its entirety.

This metaphysics became the basis of religion so it resonates with people. It invented agriculture so the superstitious bumpkins that survived babel didn't go extinct. Everything makes perfect sense just like people, reality and the natural world. We are wrong. Bad Darwin.

This sh@#, again, have nothing to do with Darwin.

why are you blaming Darwin about languages?
 
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