IRS Admits They Targeted Conservative Groups

[Revoltingest]

I'm sure you can find many groups on either side of the aisle that received speedy approvals.

After all the well supported allegations presented, followed by apologies for impropriety, the
burden to demonstrate your claim that the IRS might have been balanced would fall upon you.

 

[Alceste]

That about sums it up for me too.

Was it a problem? Sure. But I'm not seeing some big conspiracy here with Obama, or even the IRS, attempting to shut down conservative groups. I see a bad sorting system put into place that was disproportionately biased against conservative groups precisely because they were the majority of groups sending in new, fishy applications.

The funny thing is, all the shrieking about the policy benefiting the democrats at the expense of the republicans requires an implicit acknowledgement that the tea party is a significant fundraising and campaigning vehicle for the Republican party.

And therefore ineligible for social welfare tax exemption status.

 

[dawny0826]

There could be a political motive, just like Obama could have faked Bin Laden's death. There's no proof of such though, and I would suspect that if there was such a motive, someone would have come out by now and said "Hey! I was specifically told by a top Obama aide to target conservative groups to aid his election chances" or "I heard that the big bosses in the IRS are targetting conservative groups because they want Obama to win." The fact that that hasn't occurred is pretty indicative; that's not something that would be able to remain hidden long in this climate. And believe me, I'm sure the conservatives are digging for it.

It doesn't really need to, when conservatives are pushing for greater scrutiny of the Obama Administration anyway.

I suppose my question was, are they totally off base? If you say yes, you must approve of the government having the ability to sweep their nonsense under the rug without any sort of penance. As an American who feels that these jerks are too "big" to begin with and are overpaid to do the work that they do, I don't lose sleep over their own jabs at each other be it over legit matters or nonsense.

Bottom line...the government was in error, be it a blown-out of proportion administrative situation or more. And an apology is fine, I suppose, but, the jabs from opposition is inevitable, whether you and I agree with it or not.

By "low level workers" I don't think they mean just the techs or something like that. This probably does encompass a whole slew of superiors, bosses, etc. I think the point was to make it clear that it didn't go all the way to the top. But yeah, I agree that taking it as a whole would have likely sounded better.

Neither one of us know what they mean by "low level workers". They didn't expound to include a description.

It basically sounds to me that you want a scandal over how the IRS scandal was handled.

Ha ha. I see different perspectives. I do see the theatrics from the right on the issue. But, I'm also distrustful of our government, in general. So, it's hard for me to accept what the media has generated as "truth", at face value.

It's really NOT that big of a deal to me from a hyped standpoint. I have no desire to egg the cars of the prezzie and his cronies.

But, I do worry about the average American who isn't caught up in the sensationalism but doesn't feel like they can trust the government when it's their time to submit an application.

 

[Falvlun]

After all the well supported allegations presented, followed by apologies for impropriety, the
burden to demonstrate your claim that the IRS might have been balanced would fall upon you.

I never said it was balanced. I simply said that conservative groups also received speedy approvals. This puts a speedy approval for a liberal group in context.

 

[Revoltingest]

I never said it was balanced. I simply said that conservative groups also received speedy approvals. This puts a speedy approval for a liberal group in context.

I don't understand.
Do you claim there was an imbalance against right leaning groups, or was it against
left leaning groups, or was it balance, or is there another different condition?

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I initially thought that, but with him signing the executive order on his 2nd day in presidency, he retracted closing Gitmo a year or so later when it was scheduled to close. Mostly due in fact that Gitmo's majority population are Yemeni and the recent influx of Al Qaeda in Yemen in the years of 2008-2009 changed the decision to send these prisoners back. I guess you could still close Gitmo in that case, but you'd send them here to the mainland.
Like I said, Gitmo held nearly 0% of the reason I voted for Obama. You can't expect everyone to keep every promise. Although Obama overall has kept more than not so far.

Thanks. Yes...it was 0% the reason I voted as well. "Promises" don't motivate me when most of what a president wants to do needs to go through two houses.

 

[Revoltingest]

A reminder about what is permissible under the law....
The term "social welfare" legally includes political activities (per court ruling).
And from the IRS itself...

...a 501(c) (4) organization may engage in germane legislative activities as its sole activity.

And "social welfare" need only be the primary function, leaving something less than 50% for other activities.
Fom the IRS again....

...the "primary" test, as employed in section 501(c) (4), may permit an organization lawfully to participate or intervene in political campaigns on behalf of or in opposition to campaigns for public office so long as its primary activities remain the promotion of social welfare.

The courts have broadly interpreted the above, perhaps beyond what Congress intended, but the courts rule.

 

[Alceste]

I've already acknowledged this in conversations with Alceste on this thread. I get you and understand that it very well could have panned out this way.

Why a public apology, admitting fault if there wasn't fault? Why drag your employees under the bus, if they were just doing their job and doing their jobs accurately? That wasn't the public admission.

I think "why apologize" is not a very compelling argument for intentional political persecution. Bean counters and public servants apologize all the time, whenever they make a mistake and the press gets wind of it. That doesn't mean they have secret nefarious intentions, or there's some grand conspiracy. It just means the press got wind of them making a mistake and they need to reassure the public that they're addressing whatever underlying organizational issues led to that particular mistake being made.

When I was a policy wonk looking after data security, I also apologized whenever a mistake was made and reassured the public that we were addressing the underlying issues to make sure it couldn't happen again. That doesn't mean our whole organization was secretly conspiring to have boxes of files left at the side of the road, or unencrypted laptops stolen, for the purpose of harming this or that political party.

Public servants just don't care that much who is in charge. Administrations come and go and you just keep going to work and doing your job regardless.

 

[dawny0826]

The funny thing is, all the shrieking about the policy benefiting the democrats at the expense of the republicans requires an implicit acknowledgement that the tea party is a significant fundraising and campaigning vehicle for the Republican party.

And therefore ineligible for social welfare tax exemption status.

Actually, according to the IRS, a political non-profit can qualify for tax exemption status as long as the MAJORITY of their activities are exempt functions.

From www.irs.gov.

Exemption Requirements - Political Organizations

A political organization subject to section 527 is a party, committee, association, fund, or other organization (whether or not incorporated) organized and operated primarily for the purpose of directly or indirectly accepting contributions or making expenditures, or both, for an exempt function.
A political organization must be organized for the primary purpose of carrying on exempt function activities. A political organization's primary activities must be exempt function activities. A political organization may engage in activities that are not exempt function activities, but these may not be its primary activities.
To be exempt, a political organization must file a timely notice with the IRS that it is to be treated as a tax-exempt organization.

Exempt Function - Political Organization

The exempt function of a political organization is influencing or attempting to influence the selection, nomination, election or appointment of an individual to a federal, state, or local public office or office in a political organization. The election of Presidential or Vice-Presidential electors is also part of the exempt function of a political organization. Activities that directly or indirectly relate to or support an exempt function are exempt function activities.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

It doesn't matter to those who were scrutinized outside the auspices of procedure.

True...

You're right. Apologies aren't going to soothe the beast, if they suspect politically charged motive.

True.

 

[Falvlun]

I don't understand.
Do you claim there was an imbalance against right leaning groups, or was it against
left leaning groups, or was it balance, or is there another different condition?

I don't know what you are talking about. I'm not talking about balance at all. I'm simply saying that pointing out a speedy approval of one liberal group isn't all that embarrasing of a tidbit, since after all, during the same time frame, some conservative groups also received speedy approvals. (And by the same flip of the coin, some liberal groups received agnozingly slow approvals or didn't receive approval at all.)

 

[Dirty Penguin]

The funny thing is, all the shrieking about the policy benefiting the democrats at the expense of the republicans requires an implicit acknowledgement that the tea party is a significant fundraising and campaigning vehicle for the Republican party.

And therefore ineligible for social welfare tax exemption status.

.....Yep..!!!

 

[dawny0826]

The funny thing is, all the shrieking about the policy benefiting the democrats at the expense of the republicans requires an implicit acknowledgement that the tea party is a significant fundraising and campaigning vehicle for the Republican party.

And therefore ineligible for social welfare tax exemption status.

But, they should have been able to request tax exempt status as a political organization, if that were the case. You can fundraise for the party of your choosing in this capacity.

Working for a non-profit myself, reading the IRS criteria puts another spin on the issue for me, as, I didn't see reference to the specific type of applications that were "targeted" in the articles.

There shouldn't have been any issue at all with the political organization applications submitted unless the IRS found issue while reviewing individual applications. This was in the midst of a campaign, therefore, an influx of applications would have been received from a variety of political groups seeking non-profit status. A delay in making decisions on a non-profit's status delays a group's ability to do the job that they've set out to do, which can, in effect, impact a campaign.

I don't present this in hysterics or anything. I just don't buy that there wasn't any political motivation involved. Doesn't make sense to me, given what I've read.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Actually, according to the IRS, a political non-profit can qualify for tax exemption status as long as the MAJORITY of their activities are exempt functions.

From www.irs.gov.

Exemption Requirements - Political Organizations

A political organization subject to section 527 is a party, committee, association, fund, or other organization (whether or not incorporated) organized and operated primarily for the purpose of directly or indirectly accepting contributions or making expenditures, or both, for an exempt function.
A political organization must be organized for the primary purpose of carrying on exempt function activities. A political organization's primary activities must be exempt function activities. A political organization may engage in activities that are not exempt function activities, but these may not be its primary activities.
To be exempt, a political organization must file a timely notice with the IRS that it is to be treated as a tax-exempt organization.

Exempt Function - Political Organization

The exempt function of a political organization is influencing or attempting to influence the selection, nomination, election or appointment of an individual to a federal, state, or local public office or office in a political organization. The election of Presidential or Vice-Presidential electors is also part of the exempt function of a political organization. Activities that directly or indirectly relate to or support an exempt function are exempt function activities.

I have to do some more research but I heard that the original law differs from this and that this is and IRS change not authorized by Congress. Do you have info to this?

 

[dawny0826]

I have to do some more research but I heard that the original law differs from this and that this is and IRS change not authorized by Congress. Do you have info to this?

This is what is presently published on the IRS's website.

 

[Alceste]

I have to do some more research but I heard that the original law differs from this and that this is and IRS change not authorized by Congress. Do you have info to this?

Please do. If this is the policy, I don't get why virtually every article I've read on the subject says campaigning for a particular political candidate is not exempt.

 

[dawny0826]

Please do. If this is the policy, I don't get why virtually every article I've read on the subject says campaigning for a particular political candidate is not exempt.

I pulled the information directly from the IRS website, which is where Americans are going to go for general information regarding their taxes and tax exempt application.

If information isn't correct on the website, they need to update their information to reflect current policies. I have no idea if changes have taken place since the campaigns.

This is what the IRS is presently saying about political activity and social welfare for the Social Welfare non-profit:

Political Activity and Social Welfare

Promoting social welfare does not include direct or indirect participation or intervention in political campaigns on behalf of or in opposition to any candidate for public of­fice. However, if an or­ganization is organized exclusively to promote social welfare, it may still obtain exemption even if it participates legally in some political activity on behalf of or in opposition to candidates for public office. Political activities may not be the organization's primary activities, however.

To verify my source, please see: www.irs.gov

 

[Alceste]

I pulled the information directly from the IRS website, which is where Americans are going to go for general information regarding their taxes and tax exempt application.

If information isn't correct on the website, they need to update their information to reflect current policies. I have no idea if changes have taken place since the campaigns.

This is what the IRS is presently saying about political activity and social welfare for the Social Welfare non-profit:

Political Activity and Social Welfare

Promoting social welfare does not include direct or indirect participation or intervention in political campaigns on behalf of or in opposition to any candidate for public of*fice. However, if an or*ganization is organized exclusively to promote social welfare, it may still obtain exemption even if it participates legally in some political activity on behalf of or in opposition to candidates for public office. Political activities may not be the organization's primary activities, however.

To verify my source, please see: www.irs.gov

I believe you. So, are the "political activity" and "social welfare" exemptions two different categories? From what you've posted, it sounds like they're mutually exclusive.

Another article I read (mother Jones) mentioned that most left wing groups, like occupy wall street, were applying under yet another category. Charity, I think. So this crude sorting was not as likely to impact them.

 

[dawny0826]

I believe you. So, are the "political activity" and "social welfare" exemptions two different categories? From what you've posted, it sounds like they're mutually exclusive.

Another article I read (mother Jones) mentioned that most left wing groups, like occupy wall street, were applying under yet another category. Charity, I think. So this crude sorting was not as likely to impact them.

That snippet from my last post is the information that IRS provides to those interested in tax exempt status as a Social Welfare organization, in regards to ongoing compliance as it relates to political activity and the social welfare organization.

These are the non-profit categories for which organizations can apply for non-profit status in the US:

Types of Tax-Exempt Organizations

Tax Information for Charitable Organizations
Life Cycle of a Social Welfare Organization
Life Cycle of an Agricultural or Horticultural Organization
Life Cycle of a Labor Organization
Life Cycle of a Business League (Trade Association)
Social clubs
Fraternal Societies
Employee Benefit Associations or Funds
Veterans Organizations
Tax Information for Political Organizations
Other Tax-Exempt Organizations

And again, I'm taking all of this direclty form the IRS website (www.irs.gov.)

 

[Alceste]

That snippet from my last post is the information that IRS provides to those interested in tax exempt status as a Social Welfare organization, in regards to ongoing compliance as it relates to political activity and the social welfare organization.

These are the non-profit categories for which organizations can apply for non-profit status in the US:

Types of Tax-Exempt Organizations

Tax Information for Charitable Organizations
Life Cycle of a Social Welfare Organization
Life Cycle of an Agricultural or Horticultural Organization
Life Cycle of a Labor Organization
Life Cycle of a Business League (Trade Association)
Social clubs
Fraternal Societies
Employee Benefit Associations or Funds
Veterans Organizations
Tax Information for Political Organizations
Other Tax-Exempt Organizations

And again, I'm taking all of this direclty form the IRS website (www.irs.gov.)

Seems to me that tea party political campaigns should have applied as political organizations rather than social welfare organizations. Do we know why they didn't?