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IRS Admits They Targeted Conservative Groups
- Thread starter esmith
- Start date
What does any of this have to do with your erroneous comparison of this to Watergate? If Obama wasn't behind it, then the comparison is misleading, at best, and intentional misrepresentation, at worse.
As for your allegations of increased persecution of whistle blowers, did Obama persecute those who blew the whistle on this? No? Okay, then that has nothing to do with this.
Increased secrecy? Did the IRS get exposed by investigative journalism while they were trying to cover this issue up? Nope: they reported it themselves. So secrecy obviously has nothing to do with it.
As for warrantless wire tapping, what the heck? What's next? Let's just throw in his failure to close Guatanamo while we're at it, because that totally caused the IRS to independently come up with an evaluation method that resulted in conservative groups getting greater scrutiny.
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I'm sure anyone who wants to become a 501(c) (4) can do so if they qualify. The real issue is that the IRS shouldn't base audits upon partisan concerns, as Nixon had them do, & as they are now found to be doing. The tax code is just part of the legal picture of government being able to hinder free speech thru back door means, ie, legal harassment. Campaign laws have made it harder for grass roots organizations to legally operate.
Cato Supreme Court Review - Roger Pilon - Google Books
Campaign Finance Reform's War On Political Freedom (Elitists Seeks To Throttle Grassroots Alert)
I don't want Dems or Pubs (or any other party) being able to steer political discourse by such means. Political corruption shouldn't be about whether we care about the targeted groups/individuals or not, since power shifts between the Big Two, making everyone potentially vulnerable.
Well, good thing that neither political party had anything to do with this. It was the failure of the organization to come up with an appropriate sceening system.
I've not addressed Watergate.
Or perhaps you're intentionally misrepresenting my post in order to defend Obama, eh?
Perhaps you missed my point that Obama creates a general climate, just as did other presidents, eg, Reagan, Dubya.
I see that I struck a nerve by pointing out Obama's general failings which enable partisan debacles like the IRS scandal.
I don't envy you for having to exculpate the guy's every sin.
Yes, it was a non-partisan program targeting conservative groups
for audits & leaking the info to left leaning political groups.
Very true dat!
Worse yet, if the focus is excessively on Obama, then we have no chance at reforms which might prevent
future partisan use of the IRS. It's a systemic problem which has spanned many decades & administrations.
You said:
I called BS in your equation of this current IRS debacle to Watergate. Did you already forget this? It was only like 5 posts ago.
What did you mean when you said:
As most normal English speakers would, I took that to mean you considered this current issue to be analogous to the one that took place during Watergate. But due to many frustrating debates with you, I am aware that you tend to utilize English differently than the rest of us.
And if Obama had indeed created a climate in which whistle blowing was repressed and secrecy was encouraged, then how the heck do you account for the fact that the whistle was blown and secrecy non-existent in this case?
Either:
a) you are incorrect in your assessment that Obama has indeed made this climate, and therefore, he had no affect on this issue.
or b) Obama has indeed created such a climate, but those involved in the IRS completely ignored it, since simple observation shows that they still chose to whistle blow on themselves and didn't resort to secrecy.
Either way, Obama wasn't involved in the creation of this issue, nor did he obstruct it's ultimate release to public knowledge.
I see that it's really hard for you to understand that every single problem in this country isn't Obama's fault. How do you sleep at night when you believe this man is wreaking havoc in every corner of the world?
Then why are you so excessively focused on Obama?
I haven't seen anything about the part I bolded. Can you provide a source? Thanks.
Using the search function for this thread to find "watergate", I found no post of mine wherein I
mentioned it directly or addressed it indirectly. Feel free to give me the number of the post.
Really, if you can't calm down & be civil, I've no interest in discussing the issues with you.
Post 13. I already quoted the line extensively. Here it is again:
Nixon's use of the IRS in a discriminatory manner was part of the reason he got impeached. I rolled (perhaps erroneously?) that under the heading of "Watergate" since Watergate was the catalyst of his impeachment and I assumed his IRS shenanigans were a part of that, rather than a separate issue.
Regardless, you knew precisely what I was talking about. If you object to labeling Nixon's IRS shenanigans as "Watergate", then feel free to read "Nixon's IRS shenanigans" into my posts wherever I wrote "Watergate".
As for civility, dude, you were the one who had to get your dig in about me having a need to defend Obama. If you can't take it then don't dish it.
esmith
Veteran Member
Falvlun;
I do not know how old you are but the IRS and Watergate had nothing in common. During Nixon's presidency there was something called the "Nixon Enemies List" see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nixon's_Enemies_List for description. I do not think anyone is advocating that what the IRS was doing to conservative groups was the same as the Watergate break-in. I think that there are those that would like to speculate that Obama's demeanor empowered or influenced some in the IRS to do what they did.
I do not know how old you are but the IRS and Watergate had nothing in common. During Nixon's presidency there was something called the "Nixon Enemies List" see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nixon's_Enemies_List for description. I do not think anyone is advocating that what the IRS was doing to conservative groups was the same as the Watergate break-in. I think that there are those that would like to speculate that Obama's demeanor empowered or influenced some in the IRS to do what they did.
You first accused me of "intentional misrepresentation", which I read as lying.
Your dwelling on Watergate is a straw man. And then you accuse me of "BS".
I've no interest in your abusive bickering, ad homs, & deflection from the issues.
You should learn to disagree without becoming so inflamed. It's just politics.
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Thanks esmith. I realized my mistake in the post above yours. I assumed that the two issues were linked since they were both reasons he got impeached.
Regardless, I think it was clear what I was referring to, since I quoted Revoltingest's own words-- namely, Nixon's IRS scandal.
Geeze....give it a rest.
I didn't even think of Watergate, let alone even mention it.
Misuse of the IRS for partisan mischief under Nixon was not "Watergate".
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Nope. I said the equation of the two instances was misleading at best, and intentional misrepresentation at worse. I never accused you of either: you could have simply been making the equation out of honest ignorance, with no intention of misleading. The fact remains, however, that imo the equation is misleading.
In contrast to your accusations, I gave you a chance to explain why you thought they should be equated and explained why I thought the equation was BS. You, however, have decided to focus instead, as usual, upon simple mistakes and hurt feelings.
Who needs to give it a rest? Everyone in this thread now clearly knows that you weren't talking about Watergate but the IRS scandal and that I made a simple mistake. I've even said to go back through and read IRS scandal in my posts rather than Watergate. You are the only one still refusing to address the issue and instead are carping on a mistake that has been fixed to death already.
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
I think the uptick in request were from majority conservative groups. Personally I'd have a problem if they weren't investigating these groups and any other group requesting tax exempt status. I don't care which side of the isle their from.... And like I said....I believe the majority of the request were granted.....
"strawman"......
