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Is a trans man really a man or a trans woman really a woman?

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Human Nature never changes.


That is not particularly relevant.
Human nature doesn't change much. But the circumstances change. Our knowledge about what works for the best changes and improves.
People who have been dead for millenniums are simply not authorities. Claiming that God said something doesn't change that fact.
Tom
 

Aštra’el

Aštara, Blade of Aštoreth
Personally, I don't know why anyone would want to accept a several thousand year old book as a standard for modern morality. Humanity has evolved a lot since then and so I would say our moral and ethical values should evolve along with us rather than continuing to follow the ancient standards that those who wrote the Bible had.

Human Nature never changes.

That is not particularly relevant.
Human nature doesn't change much. But the circumstances change. Our knowledge about what works for the best changes and improves.
People who have been dead for millenniums are simply not authorities. Claiming that God said something doesn't change that fact.
Tom

Actually, it is incredibly relevant.

The Bible contains many lessons about individual human Nature and collective human Nature... lessons that are still very relevant today. Regardless of what one believes, there is great wisdom to be found in the Bible. That wisdom can be particularly useful to anybody, no matter where they come from or how they choose to conduct themselves in this world.

So... it isn't always about "accepting a several thousand year book as a standard for modern morality" (though some obviously feel that way) or recognizing "people who've been dead for millenniums" as authorities. Oftentimes it is more about integrating profound insights about human Nature into one's spiritual-religious system, or philosophical views, code of discipline, a culture's laws, one's personal Weltanschauung, etc...

 
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ZooGirl02

Well-Known Member
Actually, it is incredibly relevant.

The Bible contains many lessons about individual human Nature and collective human Nature... lessons that are still very relevant today. Regardless of what one believes, there is great wisdom to be found in the Bible. That wisdom can be particularly useful to anybody, no matter where they come from or how they choose to conduct themselves in this world.

So... it isn't always about "accepting a several thousand year book as a standard for modern morality" (though some obviously feel that way) or recognizing "people who've been dead for millenniums" as authorities. Oftentimes it is more about integrating profound insights about human Nature into one's spiritual-religious system, or philosophical views, code of discipline, a culture's laws, one's personal Weltanschauung, etc...

I agree with you that the Bible contains many lessons about individual human nature and collective human nature but I don't feel that this means we should accept everything that the Bible says. I am of the opinion that there are parts of the Bible that are useful and relevant to today that can we can glean from it and make use of and then there are other parts which are better off being thrown in the waste basket so to speak.
 

ZooGirl02

Well-Known Member
Actually a lot of studies have shown that there are very real and biological reasons behind transgender people's identification. I can link you some of these from some very reputable sources.

Also, transexualism/transgender has been medically recognized for many many decades and has standardized procedures and standards of care and has requirements for who is diagnosed with gender dysphoria.

Hi there Mandi. I am not the person you were replying to but I would love to take a look at those links if you could either post them or PM them to me.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
I agree with you that the Bible contains many lessons about individual human nature and collective human nature
This is definitely true.

But it is also true of many things, from the stories of indigenous people to Confucius to Shakespeare. It's the belief that the Bible is magically more true than other such literature that is the problem.
Tom
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
This is definitely true.

But it is also true of many things, from the stories of indigenous people to Confucius to Shakespeare. It's the belief that the Bible is magically more true than other such literature that is the problem.
Tom
I think we just need to leave it in the past and create our own stories that don't have all the evil and wickedness attached to the shreds of good. The ways of ISIS are abhorrent and appalling, but yet it reads very much like the Old Testament, and all three Abrahamics do hold that book up to be holy. It's a seriously massive and heavy anchor that has us tremendously burdened and held back by the past. It's time we truly "kill god," and burn the body, weld the urn shut, and bury it in a block of cement to make sure he actually does remain dead this time. And really, the only thing that saved Jehovah that killed the Olympians is Heaven and Hell have ambiguous locations, whereas Mt. Olympus is a very specific, and even though we've "evicted" God and Satan a few times, they always just get pushed further out than previously thought before.
It's time to just let it all go. I've been through the process - it's painful and difficult at first, but the world is always better when even at least one person gives up willful ignorance and hatred.
 

Aštra’el

Aštara, Blade of Aštoreth
I think we just need to leave it in the past and create our own stories that don't have all the evil and wickedness attached to the shreds of good. The ways of ISIS are abhorrent and appalling, but yet it reads very much like the Old Testament, and all three Abrahamics do hold that book up to be holy. It's a seriously massive and heavy anchor that has us tremendously burdened and held back by the past. It's time we truly "kill god," and burn the body, weld the urn shut, and bury it in a block of cement to make sure he actually does remain dead this time. And really, the only thing that saved Jehovah that killed the Olympians is Heaven and Hell have ambiguous locations, whereas Mt. Olympus is a very specific, and even though we've "evicted" God and Satan a few times, they always just get pushed further out than previously thought before.
It's time to just let it all go. I've been through the process - it's painful and difficult at first, but the world is always better when even at least one person gives up willful ignorance and hatred.


Your decision to underestimate the strength, power, wisdom and beauty that can be found in the many holy books, and in the many religions, is not a weakness that I share. Oh, and what a profound weakness it is.

I do not pity you. You spoke out against "willful ignorance and hatred" when that is exactly what you are displaying in regards to the Old Testament and Abrahamic religion.


 
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Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Your decision to underestimate the strength, power, wisdom and beauty that can be found in the many holy books, and in the many religions, is not a weakness that I share. Oh, and what a profound weakness it is.
The weakness is clinging onto a past that belongs in the past. And, I specifically stated the Bible, and Abrahamic religions (which extends into the Quran). Not a massive lumping of all religious texts, which is a weakness itself to read one thing and turn it into another.
when that is exactly what you are displaying in regards to the Old Testament and Abrahamic religion.
Do you need me to list passages demonstrating the evilness and wickedness found throughout the Bible? Do not forget, it commanded genocide, misogyny, being executed over numerous trivial offenses, and evil supports and condones slavery. It gets so bad that one of the "prophets" sent a bear to maul children to death for making fun of him and calling him "baldy." Kill the women who are old enough to have been with a man, rip open the pregnant women and tear out the unborn, and keep the young ones as sex slaves. Not even cattle are safe from the wrath and blood lust of Jehovah, who even sent his own son to die a violent and agonizing death. What of that isn't evil or wicked? Hitler has become a sort of universal symbol of evil and hatred, but his damage and death toll is a drop in the ocean compared to what Jehovah is written to have done.
 
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leibowde84

Veteran Member
Hey everyone. I am not asking this question out of a desire to offend anyone but out of a desire to learn more. I have heard many people say that a trans man is really a man and a trans woman is really a woman but this is something that I do not understand. How is it possible for a trans man to really be a man when this person's chromosomes say that this person is a woman? Also, how is it possible for a trans woman to really be a woman when this person's chromosomes say that this person is a man?
I think you have a valid point here. Socially, I think a trans-man or woman should be treated as however they identify. But, technically speaking, the below definition of "female", which is the basis for the term "woman" seems to require the ability to have offspring and develop eggs.

fe·male
ˈfēˌmāl/
adjective
  1. of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) that can be fertilized by male gametes.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
And I find nothing beautiful, wise, or holy about a book that would dare instruct a parent to murder their child.
 

Aštra’el

Aštara, Blade of Aštoreth

Do you need me to list passages demonstrating the evilness and wickedness found throughout the Bible?

I find nothing beautiful, wise, or holy about a book that would dare instruct a parent to murder their child.

Your inadequate understanding of human Nature and the subjectivity of morality is something you will have to remedy yourself, or remain ignorant of.




 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Hey everyone. I am not asking this question out of a desire to offend anyone but out of a desire to learn more. I have heard many people say that a trans man is really a man and a trans woman is really a woman but this is something that I do not understand. How is it possible for a trans man to really be a man when this person's chromosomes say that this person is a woman? Also, how is it possible for a trans woman to really be a woman when this person's chromosomes say that this person is a man?
I gather that you're a woman; what makes *you* a woman?

You talked about chomosomes. Women with CAIS sometimes don't get diagnosed until they try to have kids. Say you got diagnosed with CAIS tomorrow. This would mean that you're "genetically male"; you would have a Y chromosome. If that happened, would you decide that you had been wrong all these years and you're really a man after all, or would you say that you really are a woman despite your genes?
 

Ana.J

Active Member
Hey everyone. I am not asking this question out of a desire to offend anyone but out of a desire to learn more. I have heard many people say that a trans man is really a man and a trans woman is really a woman but this is something that I do not understand. How is it possible for a trans man to really be a man when this person's chromosomes say that this person is a woman? Also, how is it possible for a trans woman to really be a woman when this person's chromosomes say that this person is a man?

The gender is more defined by hormones. Trans people get the hormone therapy...However, you cannot completely turn a man into woman and trans live less...
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
The gender is more defined by hormones. Trans people get the hormone therapy...However, you cannot completely turn a man into woman and trans live less...
Gender has nothing to do with hormones. Even women sometimes produce too much testosterone and men too much estrogen, but they are still women and men, respectively.
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Gender has nothing to do with hormones. Even women sometimes produce too much testosterone and men too much estrogen, but they are still women and men, respectively.
Can vouch for this being true. I am a woman with PCOS, my body in response to the cysts growing on my ovaries produces too much androgen hormones including testosterone. I build muscle very easily and, we're I so inclined, could grow a fabulous beard. But I don't have any dysphoria. My brain is not telling me my gender misaligns with my sex.
 

Ana.J

Active Member
Gender has nothing to do with hormones. Even women sometimes produce too much testosterone and men too much estrogen, but they are still women and men, respectively.

Being a woman or man is our self identify - psychology. However, if you adjust the hormones of a man to imitate women's hormone, his voice with become softer and he might grow breasts - physiology.
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member


Your inadequate understanding of human Nature and the subjectivity of morality is something you will have to remedy yourself, or remain ignorant of.



Really curious by what you mean by this post. Because accepting that humans have certain natural tendencies doesn't mean lauding antisocial behavior, especially since empathy is also an evolved prosocial trait and why we desire to find common ethical and moral ground to begin with.
Likewise understanding that morality is subjective doesn't mean accepting moral arbitration. Because you can still create a moral framework for prosocial behavior even if complete objectivity is impossible. A moral framework can certainly be criticized based on its impact on human behavior and human society. Including holy texts such as the bible.
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Being a woman or man is our self identify - psychology. However, if you adjust the hormones of a man to imitate women's hormone, his voice with become softer and he might grow breasts - physiology.
The physiology is usually called sex, and the psychology called gender, to avoid confusion between the two. Hormones impact physical sex, but they aren't what causes gender disassociation.
 
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