Is a trans man really a man or a trans woman really a woman?

[columbus]

So if I decided I no longer identified as fat, and now identified as thin, I would be thin?????

I wouldn't care about it if you did.
I have known people with weight problems who sorta did that. Part of their plan to reach a goal was to visualize themselves as thin, and perceive themselves as a thin person with too much weight. This as opposed to a fat person on a diet. This mental exercise apparently does often help people stay on track towards a goal of better health.
Tom

 

[Vorkosigan]

I wouldn't care about it if you did.
I have known people with weight problems who sorta did that. Part of their plan to reach a goal was to visualize themselves as thin, and perceive themselves as a thin person with too much weight. This as opposed to a fat person on a diet. This mental exercise apparently does often help people stay on track towards a goal of better health.
Tom

but that doesn't make them thin!

 

[columbus]

but that doesn't make them thin!

Back to my original question. "Who cares?"
If it helps someone get healthier, what's it to you?
Tom

 

[Vorkosigan]

Back to my original question. "Who cares?"
If it helps someone get healthier, what's it to you?
Tom

I do care about the truth.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

So, does that mean that a person who was born male and has all the male anatomy has the right to decide to use the women's restroom just because he feels more like a woman or identifies more with being a woman? Is this fair to real women and girls who have to use the same restroom with someone who is really a male but thinks of himself as a woman?

 

[Katzpur]

I have another question along this same line. I hope this isn't seen as my attempt to hijack this thread. Is there are different term for a person who self-identifies as a different gender than he/she appears to be but who has not had gender reassignment surgery than for one who has completed the process?

 

[Vorkosigan]

So, does that mean that a person who was born male and has all the male anatomy has the right to decide to use the women's restroom just because he feels more like a woman or identifies more with being a woman? Is this fair to real women and girls who have to use the same restroom with someone who is really a male but thinks of himself as a woman?

why do men and women have to use different restrooms in the first place?

 

[columbus]

I do care about the truth.

Frankly, I don't care much about your opinion about which truths are important.
To me, the important issue here is respect for others. If I were a doctor, it might matter to know that the guy I am treating has a uterus. But in daily life it doesn't.
So I don't care that you take such an interest in the genitalia or chromosomes of other people when it's none of your business.
Tom

 

[columbus]

I have another question along this same line. I hope this isn't seen as my attempt to hijack this thread. Is there are different term for a person who self-identifies as a different gender than he/she appears to be but who has not had gender reassignment surgery than for one who has completed the process?

"Pre-op versus Post-op", generally.
Tom

 

[Katzpur]

"Pre-op versus Post-op", generally.
Tom

Thanks!

 

[Vorkosigan]

I wish the well-being of as many people as possible. I think that can and should be done without BS or misleading terminology.

 

[columbus]

Thanks!

No problem.
It isn't a simple thing though, because there is a broad range of body modifications. From electrolysis to hormones to partial surgical operations to full surgeries, people frequently fall into some intermediate place.
Tom

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

In "Star Trek" it was said that "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." So is it more important to allow the 99% of women who prefer to use a restroom without men around or allow the 1% of men who think of themselves as women to use whatever restroom they prefer? Should it be based on anatomy or feelings?

 

[Vorkosigan]

No problem.
It isn't a simple thing though, because there is a broad range of body modifications. From electrolysis to hormones to partial surgical operations to full surgeries, people frequently fall into some intermediate place.
Tom

In "Star Trek" it was said that "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." So is it more important to allow the 99% of women who prefer to use a restroom without men around or allow the 1% of men who think of themselves as women to use whatever restroom they prefer? Should it be based on anatomy or feelings?

I have the solution! let's have a restroom for women, and another for everyone else. I don't care who else is at the restroom with me at all, i just mind my own business when I'm there

 

[columbus]

Should it be based on anatomy or feelings?

How about we base it on something concrete, even if subjective?
If someone is in the restroom making other people uncomfortable with behavior the staff deals with them. Shouldn't matter if the problem is gender or panhandling or drunken stupidity. Cause a problem and you get the boot.
Zip in to the room, excrete, zip out of the room, no problem.

What's wrong with that?
Tom

 

[columbus]

I have the solution! let's have a restroom for women, and another for everyone else. I don't care who else is at the restroom with me at all, i just mind my own business when I'm there

Personally, I would be fine with gender neutral restrooms altogether. "Shy" is not a characteristic of mine. Other people feel differently, so I try to respect their feelings.
Tom

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

You say the solution is to have a restroom for women and another for everyone else. But who decides who is a "woman"? Is it based on anatomy? Is it based on their birth certificate? Or is it based on what they feel like? A person born a male who thinks of himself as a woman would be allowed to use the women's restroom? And how are you going to have an employee standing around to see if anyone causes a problem? A trouble maker would slip in and out before anyone could do anything.

 

[SkepticThinker]

You say the solution is to have a restroom for women and another for everyone else. But who decides who is a "woman"? Is it based on anatomy? Is it based on their birth certificate? Or is it based on what they feel like? A person born a male who thinks of himself as a woman would be allowed to use the women's restroom? And how are you going to have an employee standing around to see if anyone causes a problem? A trouble maker would slip in and out before anyone could do anything.

Why does there need to be somebody there checking anatomy? Just let people use the restroom they're comfortable with and get on with it. I've never seen anybody's genitals in a women's restroom before anyway (given that there are individual stalls with locks and doors). Have you?

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

I am just saying that 99 women might be uncomfortable because one man is using the same restroom. So who makes the rules? Are you a man because you have male organs or are you a female because you just feel like it? If a man uses the women's restroom because he is "comfortable with it" does that mean the feelings of the women do not count?

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

Hey everyone. I am not asking this question out of a desire to offend anyone but out of a desire to learn more. I have heard many people say that a trans man is really a man and a trans woman is really a woman but this is something that I do not understand. How is it possible for a trans man to really be a man when this person's chromosomes say that this person is a woman? Also, how is it possible for a trans woman to really be a woman when this person's chromosomes say that this person is a man?

No.