So you would force a 9 year old child to give birth to the babies of their rapist and let them die in the process? Great morals you have there.
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Is abortion homicide?
- Thread starter Spiderman
- Start date
According to Catholic theology, you could be doing them a favor, since they never had the chance to commit actual sin. Best to kill 'em before they have the chance to be naughty, obviously.Couldn't abortion save souls? I mean, many of those aborted fetuses would have done a lot of harm to themselves and others. Some of them were very lucky they were aborted.
In fact, I have to go before the judge with enormous amounts of sin on my soul. If my Mother would have aborted me, I'd have a clean slate.
I don't consider this world to be our home anyway, so to die innocent, I count as a great privilege.
Stalwart
Member
The souls of unbaptised infants do not inherit salvation. If they did, why would we oppose abortion? We'd be right to refer to so-called 'abortion mills' as 'salvation mills' if this were true.
As above. Innocence does not warrant salvation in of itself.
I don't consider this world to be our home anyway, so to die innocent, I count as a great privilege.
Okay.
Spiderman
Veteran Member
Yes "Evil" is subjective. I was calling it "Evil" in the traditional sense of God having formed the child...but sometimes God's will is very cruel and people can be more merciful and kind than God.
I'm all about what creates the least amount of misery in our world. That could mean a lot of people being comfortably put out of their misery and existences terminated. So my desire to see less misery in our world would be considered "evil" by a traditional theist's faith and morals.
Rambling about "respect for life" and some such.
I've never heard the salvation of the fetuses brought up in Catholic arguments against abortion.
Stalwart
Member
Didn't read the whole case, merely the introductory paragraph, but if the mother's life is at risk, then, as above, saving her becomes the intention, and the act involved in that is different to abortion. I'm not saying I would force her to birth the children.
As I said above to PopeADope, this is certainly not the case.
Spiderman
Veteran Member
YOU DON'T KNOW THAT! No one made you the judge. Let God do the judging.
The Church never made an infallible statement about limbo anyways. Limbo is a stupid teaching of Saint Augustine and some fallible humans.
Augustine wanted it to be defined and the council rejected his idea. It's a disgusting teaching that all unbaptized people went to hell or limbo ( because they didn't have some priest poor water over them and mutter some words from a book.)
God can provide any sacrament (including baptism) without the help of a priest! The Church teaches that!
Thanks for your reply.
Also, is your view of euthanization also extend to non-human animals? Would you put down an ailing pet or let it's own natural death occur regardless of suffering?
I don't think I agree with not calling it abortion just because it has an element of triage. Any time you're manually stopping pregnancy it's an abortion by definition (both lay and medical). Wouldn't that mean that there is acceptable circumstance for which abortion to occur?
Isn't an abortion to rescue the mother essentially a mercy killing for the mother?
Also, is your view of euthanization also extend to non-human animals? Would you put down an ailing pet or let it's own natural death occur regardless of suffering?
The reason people ask this question is because many pro-life people believe choice is important to the debate, and believe pregnancy shouldn't be forced on people who didn't choose sexual participation. Especially since being forced to carry to term pregnancy due to rape often causes huge amounts of psychological trauma, even suicide.
Now you're just using semantics. The intent is still to cause an abortion. Catholic ethics play similar hypocritical games with family planning by allowing people an out by using NFP as contraception, when they obviously are practicing a form of contraception and doing what they can to "close the martial act to the gift of life". Catholic moral teaching a mess and a joke.
Stalwart
Member
All correct (though, Saint Augustine was far from 'stupid, and your opinion that the theory of limbo is 'disgusting' is completely subjective, and of no consequence). What we do know for certain, though, is that baptism is necessary to salvation. At the same time, we do not know for certain that God does save the deceased unborn. For this reason, we ought to presume otherwise, and certainly should not presume that He does.
Stalwart
Member
In response to both of you (ADigitalArtist and Frankenstein):
If you want to define abortion that way and say that it therefore does have exceptions, then sure. But I am talking specifically about intention.
Yeah, so does abortion. It also always results in the death of at least one person.
NFP is, indeed, a mess and a joke. I reject it wholly, and am not bound to hold it.
If you want to define abortion that way and say that it therefore does have exceptions, then sure. But I am talking specifically about intention.
Yeah, so does abortion. It also always results in the death of at least one person.
NFP is, indeed, a mess and a joke. I reject it wholly, and am not bound to hold it.
Spiderman
Veteran Member
Regarding unbaptized babies being unsaved, didn't God know the baby was going to be aborted before he formed the child in it's mother's womb?
Can't God give the child the sacrament of baptism prior to it's death? Is God going to consequence the child for not having the opportunity to see a priest?
If so, what kind of a God is that? I'd be more merciful and kind to the slain child than he is, lol
Can't God give the child the sacrament of baptism prior to it's death? Is God going to consequence the child for not having the opportunity to see a priest?
If so, what kind of a God is that? I'd be more merciful and kind to the slain child than he is, lol
Stalwart
Member
If He did, then He also knew that the mother (and others involved in both the decision and the action) could not be held guilty for the decision and action until it was carried out.
If so, what kind of a God is that? I'd be more merciful and kind to the slain child than he is, lol
Subjective, baseless, and non-consequential opinion.
Spiderman
Veteran Member
How subjective is it? should we take a poll on which action is kinder, A) to let an innocent baby into heaven or B) leave it banned from heaven because some priest didn't poor water over it's head and mutter some words.
Which would you say is more kind and more charitable treatment of a baby?
Obviously letting the innocent child into heaven is more kind and loving, therefore, my approach is more kind and loving than your God. There is nothing subjective there.
(at least, were God to be as you are describing.)
Stalwart
Member
God is necessarily perfect, meaning that He is infinitely just and infinitely moral. If He permits something to take place, then it is justified. All of the human race could be united in consensus against Him - the human race, in its deficient perspective, would still be wrong.
निताइ dasa
Nitai's servant's servant
I voted Yes.
It is Homocide, because I also believe that the fetus is a person with the right to life.
Is it evil? Yes, well in the Hindu perspective it is. By ending the life of a fetus, you are depriving her of a rare human birth, which is only attained after many many rebirths. A human birth is the only birth in which one can understand and have a relationship with God and hence gain liberation (Moksha). By the act of abortion, you have denied the fetus this rare human birth and barred her spiritual progress. This is the greatest evil to a person.
Should it be illegal? No. I believe it should be heavily restricted, and only considered a last resort. There are certain cases where abortion is permissible I think, like when the mother's live is in danger. It should never be used as a way of convenience killing. No one can decide whether a fetus' life is worth living or not, not even the mother.
Yes, there is a paper, written by philosopher Phillippa Foot (link here) where she explains this theory with regards to abortion.
It is Homocide, because I also believe that the fetus is a person with the right to life.
Is it evil? Yes, well in the Hindu perspective it is. By ending the life of a fetus, you are depriving her of a rare human birth, which is only attained after many many rebirths. A human birth is the only birth in which one can understand and have a relationship with God and hence gain liberation (Moksha). By the act of abortion, you have denied the fetus this rare human birth and barred her spiritual progress. This is the greatest evil to a person.
Should it be illegal? No. I believe it should be heavily restricted, and only considered a last resort. There are certain cases where abortion is permissible I think, like when the mother's live is in danger. It should never be used as a way of convenience killing. No one can decide whether a fetus' life is worth living or not, not even the mother.
Yes, there is a paper, written by philosopher Phillippa Foot (link here) where she explains this theory with regards to abortion.
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Voted no.
Homicide is illegal killing of another human other than self defense.
Abortion by it's very nature is a medical decision made by a woman with consultations by medical professionals. A doctor may kill, either unintentional or even intentionally. Depending on how one views abortion. But they are rarely charged with homicide for a reason.
Homicide is illegal killing of another human other than self defense.
Abortion by it's very nature is a medical decision made by a woman with consultations by medical professionals. A doctor may kill, either unintentional or even intentionally. Depending on how one views abortion. But they are rarely charged with homicide for a reason.
I can't decide how to vote. However I think it should still be the person's choice in the first three months as I am not going to decide morality for them in this close call.
*conservative Vaishnava perspective
निताइ dasa
Nitai's servant's servant
I am speaking from a traditional Hindu perspective. Half of Hinduism nowdays is in actuality Neo-Hinduism (the whole new-age business). I would be happy to have a debate with you on this.
Most traditional schools of Hinduism, including the Shaivas, Shaktas, Vaishanavs and even Smartas believe that the atma enters the body at the point of conception. Sruti also supports this. They all accept that human birth is rare and precious from that moment of conception, and therefore abortion creates huge karmic penalties. Scripture also supports this view. I recognize that Hinduism is diverse, but the majority of the traditional schools would be in agreement with me here. Adi Sankaracharya (the founder of the Adwaita school) for example in his Vivek Chudamani, declares that human birth is the most rare and precious birth there is. One of the tenets of Hinduism is this principle of ahimsa and respect for all forms of life. The killing of the fetus (garbha hatya) is one of the five great evils.
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