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Is acknowledging Muhammad's prophethood but being another religion make one an apostate?

Rainbow Mage

Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
The reason I ask is because in Iran and other Islamic countries Baha'is are deemed as "apostates" and treated as such, but really, can one be an apostate if they were never a Muslim? The only way they could deem Baha'is apostates in my mind is if they take the Baha'i acceptance of Muhammad's prophethood as making them Muslims.

I seem to remember this is how Muslims treated Sikhs in the past as well. Sikhs were labeled apostates.

Is it enough to make one an apostate to accept Muhammad's prophethood, but not be Muslim?
 

kai

ragamuffin
The alleged crime of apostasy attributed to Baha'i of a non Muslim background, is simply untenable.However Bahia'i who were Muslims are a different kettle of fish.
 

BruceDLimber

Well-Known Member
The alleged crime of apostasy attributed to Baha'i of a non Muslim background, is simply untenable.However Bahia'i who were Muslims are a different kettle of fish.

Not if one bears in mind the fact that the Qur'an states explicitly:

"Let there be no compulsion in religion!" (2:256)

Peace,

Bruce
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Not if one bears in mind the fact that the Qur'an states explicitly:

"Let there be no compulsion in religion!" (2:256)

Peace,

Bruce
And yet Muhammad was most certainly compelled by Gabriel to speak... Guess it doesn't apply to everyone.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Is it enough to make one an apostate to accept Muhammad's prophethood, but not be Muslim?
From my perspective anyone who accepts Muhammad's so-called "prophet-hood" and does not immediately convert/revert to Islam is simply underscoring their blatant stupidity.
 

BruceDLimber

Well-Known Member
From my perspective anyone who accepts Muhammad's so-called "prophet-hood" and does not immediately convert/revert to Islam is simply underscoring their blatant stupidity.

You clearly overlook the fact that more Divine Messengers have appeared since that time; and only the latest is currently applicable!

Peace,

Bruce

 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
But didn't Muhammad himself claim that there would be no more after him? How does the Bahai Faith address that?
 

Rainbow Mage

Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
But didn't Muhammad himself claim that there would be no more after him? How does the Bahai Faith address that?

No Muhammad did not clearly say there would be no more messengers Luis. He claimed there would be no more prophets, and it is this tiny little bit of leg room that Baha'is rest their claim upon. The Quran leaves the possibility of more messengers (not prophets) by the following:

Paraphrased: Oh Muslims if Allah sent another messenger to you would you treat them as the people of the book have treated me?

And this:

O Muslims if you turn aside from the message and this messenger then right soon would Allah raise another messenger and appoint another people. Surely Allah has power over all things.
 
But didn't Muhammad himself claim that there would be no more after him? How does the Bahai Faith address that?

For the Baha'i Faith, Muhammad was to be the Seal of the Prophets (nabi), but not the seal of the Messengers (rasul). So thus, there will be no more nabi, there will still be rasul who will bring a Message and a Book, and no more minor prophets. Baha'u'llah Himself says that there will be a Messenger who will come after Him in one thousand years. Whether this is to be interpreted literally or metaphorically, who knows, but Baha'i speculation is that such a Messenger will still be under Baha'u'llah's Revelation.

The Ahmadiyya Muslims also go around it by claiming that since Muhammad is the Seal of the Prophets, God will only send minor prophets after that under the Islamic or Muhammadan Revelation and no abrogate it entirely.
 

BruceDLimber

Well-Known Member
But didn't Muhammad himself claim that there would be no more after him? How does the Bahai Faith address that?

Quite straightforwardly, with no problem whatever!:

Muslims often interpret the Qur'an as stating that Muhammad, being the Seal of the Prophets, is the final prophet and that there will be no more Divine Messengers sent by God (or Allah).

In fact, IOV this whole “last prophet” thing is based upon a misunderstanding!

There are in fact several different explanations of the verse in the Qur’an saying Muhammad is the Seal of the Prophets (a statement we Baha’is accept, please note!):

• First off, there is a sense in which EVERY Divine Messenger is the First and the Last, the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, and the Seal!

• Next, there are multiple Arabic words that all translate into English as "prophet."

One of these is "nabi," which refers to a minor prophet such as Jeremiah or Amos.

Another is Ras'ul, which means a major, religion-founding Divine Messenger like Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, or Baha'u'llah (our Founder). (And yes, Muhammad was a major--not a minor--Prophet.)


But the word actually used in the Qur'an is "nabi," meaning Muhammad was the Seal of the minor prophets! This says nothing whatever about the great Divine Messengers.


• Muhammad is also the Seal in the sense that He was the last Messenger during the Prophetic Age, which began with Adam and ended with Him. The Bab then closed out that Age and opened the Age of Fulfillment, of which Baha'u'llah is the first major Messenger.

• Finally, there is a sense in which the word commonly translated as "seal" also means "ornament," so that this verse of the Qur'an may simply be saying that Muhammad is the Ornament of the prophets! (Nothing whatever about any sort of finish.)

Peace, :)

Bruce
 
No Muhammad did not clearly say there would be no more messengers Luis. He claimed there would be no more prophets, and it is this tiny little bit of leg room that Baha'is rest their claim upon. The Quran leaves the possibility of more messengers (not prophets) by the following:

Paraphrased: Oh Muslims if Allah sent another messenger to you would you treat them as the people of the book have treated me?

And this:

O Muslims if you turn aside from the message and this messenger then right soon would Allah raise another messenger and appoint another people. Surely Allah has power over all things.

references please
regards
 

Starsoul

Truth
For the Baha'i Faith, Muhammad was to be the Seal of the Prophets (nabi), but not the seal of the Messengers (rasul). So thus, there will be no more nabi, there will still be rasul who will bring a Message and a Book, and no more minor prophets. Baha'u'llah Himself says that there will be a Messenger who will come after Him in one thousand years. Whether this is to be interpreted literally or metaphorically, who knows, but Baha'i speculation is that such a Messenger will still be under Baha'u'llah's Revelation.

The Ahmadiyya Muslims also go around it by claiming that since Muhammad is the Seal of the Prophets, God will only send minor prophets after that under the Islamic or Muhammadan Revelation and no abrogate it entirely.

What you have percepted to be the difference between the Prophets and the Messenger, is not right and quite opposite of it I'm afraid. Messengers( Rasul) and Nabi Both were sent by Allah. I'll quote the difference by an explanation below,

The Quran has used both the words, Nabi and Rasul, which shows that there were two kinds of messengers.

>Some of the messengers were Nabi only.
>Some messengers were both Nabi and Rasool.

The difference between Rasul and Nabi is that,

>A Rasul was a messenger of Allah who was given a new Shariat (codes of law) from Him.

>And a Nabi was also the messenger of Allah, but he was not given any new Shariat and followed the shariat of earlier Rasul.

“every messenger is a prophet [Nabi], but not every Prophet is a Rasul [Apostle]. All Rasules were Nabi, but all Nabis were not Rasuls.

A Prophet is always a Nabi by birth, but a Prophet becomes Rasul when he officially receives the post and declares it. For example, our Prophet Muhammad (sws) was Nabi by birth, but became Rasul when he officially got and delivered the message of Risalat (the word of Allah) at the age of 40.

The Rasul [Apostle] receives the message from Allah Taala in many different manners such as one of which is direct communication with the angels when he is awake. i.e., he can see and speak to the angels during the communication of Divine message.


The Rasul is higher in rank than a Nabi.


Basic Belief

And another,

A study of divine scriptures reveals that there were certain persons in the past through whom the Almighty chose to guide mankind by directly being in contact with them.
Each of them was called a "Nabi" (one who delivers a message or some news).

The Almighty elevated some of his Anbiya (plural of Nabi) to a higher position called "Rasul".
The Qur’an makes a clear distinction between the two: The extent to which a Rasul unveils the truth upon his addressees is so profound and ultimate that any denial from them makes them worthy of death and destruction as a nation


Those who show hostility to Allah and His Rasul are bound to be humiliated. The Almighty has ordained that I and my Rusul shall be dominant. (58:20)

In other words, the direct addressees of a Rasul cannot triumph over him, and they must be the losers in the end. This humiliation has various forms.

In most cases, the addressees are destroyed in their capacity as a nation if they deny their respective Rusul (plural of Rasul). Take, for example, the case of Muhammad (sws). His opponents were destroyed by the swords of the Muslim believers until at the conquest of Makkah, the remaining accepted faith.

1. In the case of Moses (sws), the Israelites never denied him. The Pharaoh and his followers however did. Therefore, they were destroyed.

2. In the case of Jesus (sws), the humiliation of the Jews has taken the form of servitude to the Christians till the day of Judgment as referred to by 3:55 and 59:3.

3. The ‘Aad, the nation of the Rasul Hud (A.s), the Samud; nation of the Rasul Saleh (as) as well as the nations of Noah (as), and Lut (as) and Shu‘ayb (as) were destroyed through natural calamities when they denied their respective Rusul as is mentioned in the various surahs of the Qur’an (See for example: Surah Qamar).

In other words, Nabi (Prophet) is a general cadre and a Rasul (Messenger) a special one. As such, every Rasul is a Nabi but this is not true vice versa.

This is like saying that all Generals are army men, but all army men are not generals.

When the Qur’an says that the institution of Nabuwwat (Prophethood) has been terminated, it means that the institution of Risalat (Messenger hood) has ALSO been terminated since the closure of a general cadre automatically means that the continuity of the upper chain of prophets has also been terminated. If the above example is taken, we can say that if there is no army then there are no Generals of course.

Difference between Nabi and Rasul
 
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Starsoul

Truth
And what Ahmadis/ Bahais wait for, is an Imam( A Just leader), who THEY call as a Messenger, but infact he will be an Imam, and Imam, though a just leader of a nation, is not the Messenger/Rasul from Allah.

Since the chain of prophethood has clearly been discontinued, and repeatedly been indicated in the Quran, it seems rather inappropriate to confuse the arrival of the imam with that of the nabi. I suggest you read Ahadiths about the arrival of the Imam, only then you will be clear about why there are sects in Islam and what are their core beliefs. This knowledge is very important for a muslim, or for a person who is studying the religion, clears up a lot of misconception.

I'll pm you the links just incase.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Imam, though a just leader of a nation, is not the Messenger/Rasul from Allah.
By the way, did you know, an Imam can also be a messenger and prophet? Abraham was an Imam as well as Messenger and prophet.

Since the chain of prophethood has clearly been discontinued, and repeatedly been indicated in the Quran, it seems rather inappropriate to confuse the arrival of the imam with that of the nabi.

Muhammad was the last prophet and messenger till the Judgment Day. Not after Judgment Day!
Baha'u'llah was the one who was promised in Quran:

Baha'u'llah: The Great Announcement of the Qur'an

Also, I recommend you read Book of Iqan on this subject.
 
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Muffled

Jesus in me
The reason I ask is because in Iran and other Islamic countries Baha'is are deemed as "apostates" and treated as such, but really, can one be an apostate if they were never a Muslim? The only way they could deem Baha'is apostates in my mind is if they take the Baha'i acceptance of Muhammad's prophethood as making them Muslims.

I seem to remember this is how Muslims treated Sikhs in the past as well. Sikhs were labeled apostates.

Is it enough to make one an apostate to accept Muhammad's prophethood, but not be Muslim?

Iranians seem to have a corner on religious nonsense but the Saudis are probably right there also. A Baha'i can't be an aostate because he is still Islamic. Unorthodox would fit if there was a concensus on Islamic orthodoxy.
This is true also for one who converts to another form of Islam such as Christianity.

If that were the case they wouldn't be apostate, they would be Muslims.

I was told by church elders that believing in Mohammed as a messenger meant that I was no longer a Christian. That is to laugh. I don't think Jesus woold let me go even if I wanted to. So, I suppose that makes me an apostate Muslim because I don't have to stick to Sharia law because Jesus is all I need. I suppose then I could think of Baha'is and Muslims as apostate Christians since they aren't in a state of grace.
 

Starsoul

Truth
If that were the case they wouldn't be apostate, they would be Muslims.

I was told by church elders that believing in Mohammed as a messenger meant that I was no longer a Christian. That is to laugh. I don't think Jesus woold let me go even if I wanted to. So, I suppose that makes me an apostate Muslim because I don't have to stick to Sharia law because Jesus is all I need. I suppose then I could think of Baha'is and Muslims as apostate Christians since they aren't in a state of grace.

Amusing. Thats the other way around in Islam, if muslims did not believe in Jesus as the prophet of Allah, we would not be muslims!
 
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