dybmh
ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
I first had it 20+ years ago. It was useful for constructing a vegetarian ( kosher-style ) Reuben sandwich.I've had it! Pretty good.
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Is America more or less religious?
- Thread starter Rabbi Daniel
- Start date
I'd say less religious as a whole. That said, you still can't openly discuss religion without expecting some kind of backlash from folks around. People get touchy about the issue.
I've never had a problem doing that.
Could be where one lives.
Could be. Though I'm in a pretty left wing part of the state, my neighborhood has about 25 churches within a mile or so.
I like to argue about religion by seeking agreement.
Perhaps that's the key.
Well, when talking to religious folks in person, I usually just listen. I'm not really confrontational and I don't really care about proving a point. Nobody I talk to really considers the subject seriously, so there really isn't a point to make anyways.
What I'm referring to are people butting in when I'm talking to someone else about the issue. Just happened the other day, even. I was talking to a coworker about religious dogma and how it influences people's politics, but then a guy walked up and told us we really shouldn't discuss religion at a place of work, and that it might offend people. I guess I did violate the cardinal sin of discussing religion and politics at work. Maybe I should have gone for the tripple and discussed sports as well; maybe about how people kneel at football games, and bring religion into that somehow.
Discussing religion or politics at work can indeed be a problem for productivity.Well, when talking to religious folks in person, I usually just listen. I'm not really confrontational and I don't really care about proving a point. Nobody I talk to really considers the subject seriously, so there really isn't a point to make anyways.
What I'm referring to are people butting in when I'm talking to someone else about the issue. Just happened the other day, even. I was talking to a coworker about religious dogma and how it influences people's politics, but then a guy walked up and told us we really shouldn't discuss religion at a place of work, and that it might offend people. I guess I did violate the cardinal sin of discussing religion and politics at work. Maybe I should have gone for the tripple and discussed sports as well; maybe about how people kneel at football games, and bring religion into that somehow.
So even though it seems you'd handle it well, as an employer, I can see their side.
Unless you're a Rabbi.
Just an engineer &/or landlord.
Yes indeed when seen from a longer term perspective. In my youth Kinder, Küche, Kirche, “children, kitchen, church”, was still the model for women, blacks were supposed to "know their place" and so forth. The world was divided into two camps and total destruction was prevented twice by single individuals who did the right thing.
Today we're living in a time when the old structures continue to fall leading to confusion and uncertainty. At the same time, I'm seeing new structures just starting to emerge.
The speed of what is going on evokes in me the sense that we're seeing the rough equivalent of the fall of Rome leading to the Renaissance in mere decades rather than centuries.
amorphous_constellation
Well-Known Member
Like most things these days, religion becomes something that an individual gains the power to express idiosyncratically. Kind of like how modern musicians don't need to sign into labels, bloggers don't need publishers, or youtubers don't need to join news networks. I expect all of this diffuse spirituality to re-organize itself eventually, taking a step up from lessons learned in the past, and allowing spirituality to become more syncretic with modernity.
The statistics that we are seeing can represent a shift away from stagnation. The population tends to hold the opinion that it is more religious than it actually is, because it tends to equate religion with goodness. What we are seeing might be an admission that it is not so religious rather than an actual change in who is religious. Religion has lost status. Perhaps people are feeling less pressure to please others through their religious stance or affiliation not just in society but in families. The result will be no less or more religious but different in appearance.
Father Heathen
Veteran Member
Less, because education information.
Taking the question to mean, How many Americans say they believe in a god, the results of surveys have shown a steady rise in "No religion" and a steady rise in non-belief as such. Compared to other first-world countries, this rise is from a very low base, but the trend is clear.
As to why, the best I can do is wave my arm generally in the direction of a few factors which are often referred to.
There's been a more general fall in the tendency of people in first-world countries to join community clubs and social groups, and that's been noted since at least the 70's. The coming of the cell phone and the spread of access to the net have been credited with the parallel collapse of traditional community sources of authority, such as politicians, religious leaders, newspapers, pundits in various fields, and so on. Right across the board the old orthodoxies appear to have been steadily losing their punch.
It may be that rises in the standard of education, not least the understanding of alternative views offered by eg science, are also playing a part.
firedragon
Veteran Member
What we can actually know is which country has more people who identify themselves as more religious. It's an identity.
By identity, yes, overall the United States is becoming more religious. But i maybe outdated. And would love to see some research if anyone could provide.
A Vestigial Mote
Well-Known Member
The data frequently gathered on the topic points to "less." I also sort of "sense" this as well. Probably a combination of discussions and news points that talk about things like the number of churches closing, the lack of sway The Bible has in public discussion, many people in general being somewhat reticent to even talk about faith - almost as if they are somewhat embarrassed by it. I understand we all run in different circles, and everyone's experience will be different, but I definitely see a rise in non-religious tendencies.
As for the "why" - I don't know for sure. I have a feeling the reasons are many, all feeding into the trend. As others have stated - the prevalence of the internet and easy access to a plethora of ideas and understanding about just how many and how varied the faiths of the world are. A greater willingness to question things and reject other's "spiritual ideas" because the law system in the country has very much divorced itself from religion - not entirely, since it is still "the people" who lead after a fashion, and so the majority can dictate public policy along (for example) Biblical lines. However, the law system will not entertain spiritual "evidence" of any kind, there is no floor offered a person whose entire basis for arguing a point is "The Bible" - you have to have something more concrete, like facts, figures, expert opinions, studies, etc - the way things should have been run from the beginning. And in this legal climate, I feel that atheists and nonbelievers of all stripes can be louder, with fewer consequences to that loudness. And in my experience, the nonbeliever's side of the argument always sounds more cogent and persuasive.
Obviously I am biased, but I have heard anecdotes of prominent atheists having gone into congregations/churches to debate the religious leaders of the place, and stories indicating that the congregation was shocked when their man (the religious believer arguing the side of belief) was getting pounded into the ground in the debate, and would go to their church's leaders asking things along the lines of "how can this be?" Because the believer's impression is that they know the truth, and that the truth should always sound more convincing. Well they don't "know the truth," and the real reason they were running to their religious leaders is because they were being forced to confront that obvious fact.
Rabbi Daniel
Member
I also have a feeling that it's less, but it's hard to know. What the people of the media say. How do they speak about churches and haredi jews....
Rabbi Daniel
Member
Haredim are still targets. I read many news articles about people who 'escaped' from Haredi 'cults' and make out that Haredim are women hating, backwards religious nutcases. Not to mentioned they throw words like Hassid and Haredi around like they're the same and make no distinction between any of the sects. A documentary I half-watched purported to be about just Haredim but naturally it was about Neturei Karta, making out they were some kind of standard. You hear what I'm saying.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Hi
What do you mean about identity? Like identity verses what?
haha. You caught that.
I think i meant identity vs actual practice.
You see, people may identify as Christian but actually be atheists. People may identify as atheists but they could actually believe in God. Its fact. There are Muslims who don't believe in God. But they would identify themselves as Muslim.
Thats why i wish to make that distinction.