Is an atheist worldview compatible with a belief in absolute moral values?

[Sunstone]

Even if you don't believe in God's existence, you will have to acknowledge the fact that in a godless universe morality has no real existence.

That strikes me as nonsense.

It doesn't matter of which God we are talking about, provided that it is an immutable, eternal, all-knowing and all-powerful being.

How would you know such a being existed? And if you cannot know for certain that such a being existed, how would you know that the morality he or she allegedly endorses is actually endorsed by him or her?

So, you will accept any old morality imaginable so long as it is endorsed by an immutable, eternal, all-knowing, all powerful being?

If God does not want us to have a particular set of morals, morality has no meaning...

More nonsense. Let's get serious.

I am not interested in reaching a consensus.

What advantage does an allegedly god-sponsored morality have over a not-god-inspired morality if few or no people agree to either one of them?

 

[dust1n]

God says that gay marriage is wrong. That's enough to prove that Gay marriage is wrong. If you believe that God does not exist, you are unable to prove that gay marriage is right. It is your opinion against mine. You may impose your opinion on me if you are more powerful than me or if you find a group of people that is more powerful or more numerous than the group of people that supports my view, but you cannot prove that you are right and I am wrong. So, I can prove that something is wrong because my moral principles are based on an immutable and all-powerful being, whereas you cannot prove what is right and what is wrong. This is the fundamental problem that Western Societies that have rejected Christianity are facing. These societies have no way to prove that the things in which they believe are right or wrong. Their vision of the world is self-contradictory because it erodes itself.

Not really, because your all-powerful being is entirely made up, ergo your moral principles are just as made up as anyone else's.

Your argument can be summed up as such:

p1: I'd really like objective principles for which moral principles can be based to exist.

p2: If God exists, the supposedly objective principles that he supposedly espoused in a book will do.

p3: There are no supposedly no alternative options available.

c: God exists.


Personally, I don't use your convenience as a standard for whether something exists or not.

 

[Koldo]

That's true, but the question is "do you have a rational justification for your moral compass?". Don't tell me that you just feel what is right and what is wrong because you guys are supposed to be the "rational ones".

As if I needed to present a 'rational justification' to see what I see and to hear what I hear ?
I am not following your reasoning.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

What makes you think that what is good for life is good? You can have good morals, but can you really justify why you have them?

For the umpteenth time, see here.

 

[viole]

All of what you said is interesting, but it is irrelevant for the present discussion. We are just discussing if moral principles can be justified in the absence of God. The answer is a big no.

Ergo, your principles are not justified, either. I am afraid.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Crypto2015]

Ergo, your princioles are not justified, either. I am afraid.

Ciao

- viole

Mine are because God exists.

 

[Crypto2015]

As if I needed to present a 'rational justification' to see what I see and to hear what I hear ?
I am not following your reasoning.

Come on, man. Do you really see moral principles floating around? If so, you should urgently visit a doctor.

 

[viole]

Mine are because God exists.

Can You justify this statement (that God exists)?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Crypto2015]

My point is that you can't justify moral principles if there is a God either, since you can't know what moral codes God have made. Any attempt of knowing them breaks on the subjective level. We can't know the objective moral laws, so we have to deal with them in the same way you would have if God doesn't exist. Basically, from a pragmatic atheistic view.

Just to make it easier, can you mention one moral code that is absolute and comes from God? An example would be great. Also, explain how you know that your example does come from God and not from social or natural reasons.

No it doesn't. The Bible is clear and it comes from God. We can know what God's moral principles are. The claim that the Bible is soooo ambiguous as to convey no real message is ludicrous. You said that you wanted an example of a moral code that comes from God. Here it is: "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind." (Matthew 22.38).

 

[Crypto2015]

Can You justify this statement (that God exists)?

Ciao

- viole

Yes. God exists because I exist.

 

[viole]

Yes. God exists because I exist.

Are you God?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Sunstone]

Yes. God exists because I exist.

Well, that about wraps up tonight's newscast, folks!

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Can you prove that God is just a rhetorical device with no existence in the real world? No. Hence, you cannot substantiate your assertion. If God does not exist, there is no way to prove that gay marriage is right/wrong, since in the absence of God morality is based solely on opinions.

You cannot prove the existence of your god, which the onus is on you to do. So we're still at square one.

 

[Ouroboros]

No it doesn't. The Bible is clear and it comes from God.

No. I don't know if it comes from God. To me, it is your subjective experience and opinion, not my view. Also, there's no way to establish that the Bible is objectively from God, since it was written by humans (subjective information). So, sorry. That doesn't work.

But let's go with the Bible as the moral code. Do you work on Sabbath? Do you eat bacon or shrimp? Is it moral that a rape victim is forced to marry their rapist? Those are some of the moral codes in the Bible. There are more. Do you follow them all?

We can know what God's moral principles are. The claim that the Bible is soooo ambiguous as to convey no real message is ludicrous. You said that you wanted an example of a moral code that comes from God. Here it is: "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind." (Matthew 22.38).

That's not a moral code. Morality has to do with your actions, doesn't it? Now you're saying that morality has to do with your feelings. Didn't you just tell everyone that "feeling" right or wrong wasn't an argument, but now you're saying that morality should dictate your feelings like love? Besides, how do you decide to just start "loving" God with all your heart (it's a organ pumping blood, so I assume it's not to be taken literal here) and how do you love with your mind? Is it a formula? And how does your soul love or made to love? Doesn't love come from God, so in essence, you either love or you don't if God make you do it. So... you are morally obligated to force yourself to a feeling in a bodily organ by stealing that mystical feeling from God, otherwise you're disobeying God. It's not a very good objective moral code to be able to follow.

 

[Ouroboros]

Yes. God exists because I exist.

Which makes the experience subjective, not objective. End of discussion.

Unless you know are arguing that you personally is the Objective Reality and Experience that we all should abide by and follow.

 

[Koldo]

Come on, man. Do you really see moral principles floating around? If so, you should urgently visit a doctor.

No. Do you see sounds floating around ? Does that mean that sounds don't exist ?

 

[Crypto2015]

Are you God?

Ciao

- viole

No, but I know that I exist because I am a conscious being. Nothing comes from nothing. Hence, myself and the universe must have come from something that exists independently from the universe. Since time is a property of the universe, time does not exist outside of the universe. Hence, the origin of the universe is atemporal (eternal). This atemporal origin of the universe must also be personal, since atemporal impersonal causes can only originate eternal consequences, and we know that the universe is not eternal. Hence, the origin of myself and of the universe must be eternal and personal. This origin closely resembles the Biblical God. Also, in Thomas Jefferson's words:

"We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness."

 

[Ouroboros]

No. Do you see sounds floating around ? Does that mean that sounds don't exist ?

Or ideas.

I don't the Theory of Gravity floating around anywhere either. So there's no theory or principles of gravity. Does this mean that gravity doesn't exist? Dang! I feel lighter already!

 

[Sunstone]

The Bible is clear and it comes from God. We can know what God's moral principles are.

Yours is an interesting position that I've seen before on numerous occasions. Unfortunately, I have yet to see an adequate defense of it. For one thing, how do you overcome the "subjective barrier" in epistemology in order to assert that the Bible can be known with certainty to be derived from deity? And if you cannot do that, what matters it how clear the Bible is or is not about morality?

 

[Ouroboros]

No, but I know that I exist because I am a conscious being. Nothing comes from nothing. Hence, myself and the universe must have come from something that exists independently from the universe.

Something. Not someone.

Since time is a property of the universe, time does not exist outside of the universe. Hence, the origin of the universe is atemporal (eternal). This atemporal origin of the universe must also be personal, since atemporal impersonal causes can only originate eternal consequences, and we know that the universe is not eternal. Hence, the origin of myself and of the universe must be eternal and personal.

You made the case for eternal, but not personal.

This origin closely resembles the Biblical God. Also, in Thomas Jefferson's words:

"We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness."

"We hold"